What happens when a non believer dies ?

[Michael LLech]

So totally new here and don't really know the ins and out of it all... but I'm going to give it a crack.

So long story short I have been with my fiancee for 4 and a half years i love her more than life itself we were like 2 peas in a pod, however 12 months ago she starting reading the bible to learn more about Jesus and god and skip forward to this present day she has found him.
This is causing friction between us and in my head i know it shouldn't be, but i cant help that when on Sundays when she goes to church i get so angry and its a unexplained anger, her finding god shouldn't anger me the way it does, I don't know why i have such a hate for it.

So a couple of nights ago I started writing a letter to my fiancee because physically i was struggling to express my emotions so i thought maybe writing might be better, and after writing that letter I have found my problem so here is what i wrote straight from my letter.
(warning it is a bit crass and unedited)

Speaking of diseases, the women I loved the most in the whole world, my mother, was diagnosed with lung cancer.

From the start the diagnostics wasn’t good she was given 6 months to live and yet she managed to go nearly 2 years past initial life expectancy some would say that’s a blessing but if you had seen what I seen my mother go through with all the treatments, you would be saying otherwise.

So, for 2 and a half years every silent moment I had whether it be just driving, laying in bed or just even having a shower, I would be praying, praying and hoping there was a big fella up there, many of times struggling to contain tears rolling down my cheeks, but we both know what happened in the end.

Now I ask why if there is an almighty god would he allow a woman so loved, that had nothing but love for her family and friends be taken away from us, what sort of god allows such a lovely women’s children to have to continue the majority of there lives without there mother? Kylie and I were in or 20’s but Jodie had only just turned 18 she was still a child herself, I ask again what god would allow this to happen?

It was at that point I said to myself if there is a god he is [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ing [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], I then become less tolerant of religion and the people that believe in it.

So I have found why this is hurting me so much i guess after 10 years i haven't really stopped grieving, so my question to the community is... as far as i know my mother was not a religious person she did spend a lot of time in chapel before she passed away but i don't know if she died with Jesus in her heart or not.
What happens to someone that dies that was not as far as i know a believer ?

 

[Noxot]

whatever condition of being she is in and however she thinks is best to be is where she will be in the spiritual world. many Christians think they are better than others and get a free ticket just because they say a few magical words but God judges the entire person and is far away from being unjust and selfish as we humans tend to be.

 

[Take Heart]

I'm sorry for your loss.. I can relate. I was 23 when my dad died of lung cancer. I'm now 29. The 'specialist' had told us that he'd only have 3 months to live. I remember bawling my eyes out with my mom. My dad was the only one that held it together, but I could tell he was in shock. Anyway.. the thing is. I had accepted Christ in my life about a year prior (probably less than). It's what held me together when I felt like I was hitting rock bottom. My dad ended up defying the odds of his predicted life expectancy. Instead of 3 months, he was blessed with a full year. That year for me and my family was crucial. Within that year, a couple months before passing on, he gave his life to Christ (a friend and their family spent that night in our house doing a Bible study). So in that.. I was able to have peace about his passing because I know that I know that I know without a single trace of doubt... that he is resting free from pain, tears, and cancer in the peaceful and loving presence of our Maker. Now back to your question. I want to first address you mentioning that your mom often went to the Chapel. Let me tell you something.. No one would spend their time in a chapel if they didn't have it in their heart to seek after Jesus. The fact that she spent so much time there before she passed away tells me that she found peace in her time spent with Him (whether it was through prayer, worship singing, reading the Bible). So I personally think she accepted Christ prior to her passing.

 

[R. Hartono]

May i know whether your mother smoked ?

 

[Michael LLech]

May i know whether your mother smoked ?

um yes she did the lung cancer was fully self inflicted

 

[R. Hartono]

um yes she did the lung cancer was fully self inflicted

I had a friend who died young of throat cancer at 44 years old, leaving three young children, people advised when he was healthy to stop smoking and drinking, he didnt until he discover he suffers from throat cancer and it was too late. If only he didnt smoke, he would still be with us. he didnt blame God anyway.

 

[Serving Zion]

So totally new here and don't really know the ins and out of it all... but I'm going to give it a crack.

So long story short I have been with my fiancee for 4 and a half years i love her more than life itself we were like 2 peas in a pod, however 12 months ago she starting reading the bible to learn more about Jesus and god and skip forward to this present day she has found him.
This is causing friction between us and in my head i know it shouldn't be, but i cant help that when on Sundays when she goes to church i get so angry and its a unexplained anger, her finding god shouldn't anger me the way it does, I don't know why i have such a hate for it.

So a couple of nights ago I started writing a letter to my fiancee because physically i was struggling to express my emotions so i thought maybe writing might be better, and after writing that letter I have found my problem so here is what i wrote straight from my letter.
(warning it is a bit crass and unedited)

Speaking of diseases, the women I loved the most in the whole world, my mother, was diagnosed with lung cancer.

From the start the diagnostics wasn’t good she was given 6 months to live and yet she managed to go nearly 2 years past initial life expectancy some would say that’s a blessing but if you had seen what I seen my mother go through with all the treatments, you would be saying otherwise.

So, for 2 and a half years every silent moment I had whether it be just driving, laying in bed or just even having a shower, I would be praying, praying and hoping there was a big fella up there, many of times struggling to contain tears rolling down my cheeks, but we both know what happened in the end.

Now I ask why if there is an almighty god would he allow a woman so loved, that had nothing but love for her family and friends be taken away from us, what sort of god allows such a lovely women’s children to have to continue the majority of there lives without there mother? Kylie and I were in or 20’s but Jodie had only just turned 18 she was still a child herself, I ask again what god would allow this to happen?

It was at that point I said to myself if there is a god he is [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], I then become less tolerant of religion and the people that believe in it.

So I have found why this is hurting me so much i guess after 10 years i haven't really stopped grieving, so my question to the community is... as far as i know my mother was not a religious person she did spend a lot of time in chapel before she passed away but i don't know if she died with Jesus in her heart or not.
What happens to someone that dies that was not as far as i know a believer ?

I recognise that you are asking for help to understand what Christianity teaches, but you also have a knowledge of your mother that we don't have.

It is not our place to judge a person's eternal destiny, as that judgement belongs to Jesus. All we can do responsibly is help you to gain the assurance you need, to have peace knowing that God is just and fair (Romans 9:14-16). But it isn't right to give you false assurance, because that would ultimately do more harm than good when the truth comes to reveal it (Proverbs 26:28, Proverbs 28:23).

So, can I ask you to read the description of the final judgement that Jesus gave in Matthew 25:31-46 and then let me know how you think her character measures according to that description?

Essentially, I am asking whether you know of a valid reason that Jesus would not receive her into eternal rest? It is true that churches manage to turn away a huge number of potential converts. I just wonder whether she really did have a faith but never actually found the appropriate way to express that within Christianity (which is a hugely cultural factor).

 

[Michael LLech]

So, can I ask you to read the description of the final judgement that Jesus gave in Matthew 25:31-46 and then let me know how you think her character measures according to that description?

So i read this and to tell you the truth i had trouble interpreting it , so i had to find it on another website that sort of gave it to me in a way i could understand.
So from my understanding your asking if my mother was not selfish person ?
She wasn't she would sacrifice things she wanted for herself to help anyone in need, she was a beautiful person it is a tragedy she is no longer part of this world.
She was very charitable, not it a monetary sense because we grew up just above the poverty line, but always donating things we didn't use or need anymore to help family's less fortunate than ourselves.
She gave friends of my sisters and i a place to call home when life was kicking them in the guts

but now i'm confused....
“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me’” (verses 39-40)"

he unregenerate live in the opposite manner. While “goats” can indeed perform acts of kindness and charity, their hearts are not right with God, and their actions are not for the right purpose – to honor and worship God.

I don't understand to me she was unselfish and helped her fellow man , but it wasn't to be "right with god" it was because it was the right thing to do, how is that not a right purpose?

I want to first address you mentioning that your mom often went to the Chapel. Let me tell you something.. No one would spend their time in a chapel if they didn't have it in their heart to seek after Jesus. The fact that she spent so much time there before she passed away tells me that she found peace in her time spent with Him

I'm actually thinking a tad bit more logically than i have been in months and i think you were right i think she did have some beliefs it was just never openly talked about i guess. Just from things i remember growing up such as -
-My sisters and I were always made to do religious education at school
-I was in Boys Brigade as a young boy ( did it for 5 years)
-My sisters and I are all christened (I'm church of England though)

 

[Serving Zion]

So i read this and to tell you the truth i had trouble interpreting it , so i had to find it on another website that sort of gave it to me in a way i could understand.
So from my understanding your asking if my mother was not selfish person ?
She wasn't she would sacrifice things she wanted for herself to help anyone in need, she was a beautiful person it is a tragedy she is no longer part of this world.
She was very charitable, not it a monetary sense because we grew up just above the poverty line, but always donating things we didn't use or need anymore to help family's less fortunate than ourselves.
She gave friends of my sisters and i a place to call home when life was kicking them in the guts

but now i'm confused....
“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me’” (verses 39-40)"

he unregenerate live in the opposite manner. While “goats” can indeed perform acts of kindness and charity, their hearts are not right with God, and their actions are not for the right purpose – to honor and worship God.

I don't understand to me she was unselfish and helped her fellow man , but it wasn't to be "right with god" it was because it was the right thing to do, how is that not a right purpose?

Is it ok to share the link to that website that you have quoted from? I could check it to see whether I could help to explain their view. If you aren't able to post url's just yet (I think you need to have posted 100 times or something), then you can just put a space between the www and the dots, and I'll remove the spaces when I copy/paste it. That should probably work ok.

Your Mum sounds like she was genuinely doing good because of the love that was in her heart. If she wasn't a self-declared Christian, she must have had some reasons for that, and it is possible that they can be good reasons. Maybe she just never really had anyone explain it to her properly and maybe the ones who did explain it to her have put her off by saying things that don't make sense (it happens too much - there has been two thousand years of people adding their own bad ideas and getting the wrong ideas from each other without fully thinking it through and just falling in line too easily).

Here, check this out meanwhile, it might go some distance toward your question: Adonai Reigns : The Gospel : God did not send his son to condemn the world!

 

[Larniavc]

So totally new here and don't really know the ins and out of it all... but I'm going to give it a crack.

So long story short I have been with my fiancee for 4 and a half years i love her more than life itself we were like 2 peas in a pod, however 12 months ago she starting reading the bible to learn more about Jesus and god and skip forward to this present day she has found him.
This is causing friction between us and in my head i know it shouldn't be, but i cant help that when on Sundays when she goes to church i get so angry and its a unexplained anger, her finding god shouldn't anger me the way it does, I don't know why i have such a hate for it.

So a couple of nights ago I started writing a letter to my fiancee because physically i was struggling to express my emotions so i thought maybe writing might be better, and after writing that letter I have found my problem so here is what i wrote straight from my letter.
(warning it is a bit crass and unedited)

Speaking of diseases, the women I loved the most in the whole world, my mother, was diagnosed with lung cancer.

From the start the diagnostics wasn’t good she was given 6 months to live and yet she managed to go nearly 2 years past initial life expectancy some would say that’s a blessing but if you had seen what I seen my mother go through with all the treatments, you would be saying otherwise.

So, for 2 and a half years every silent moment I had whether it be just driving, laying in bed or just even having a shower, I would be praying, praying and hoping there was a big fella up there, many of times struggling to contain tears rolling down my cheeks, but we both know what happened in the end.

Now I ask why if there is an almighty god would he allow a woman so loved, that had nothing but love for her family and friends be taken away from us, what sort of god allows such a lovely women’s children to have to continue the majority of there lives without there mother? Kylie and I were in or 20’s but Jodie had only just turned 18 she was still a child herself, I ask again what god would allow this to happen?

It was at that point I said to myself if there is a god he is [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], I then become less tolerant of religion and the people that believe in it.

So I have found why this is hurting me so much i guess after 10 years i haven't really stopped grieving, so my question to the community is... as far as i know my mother was not a religious person she did spend a lot of time in chapel before she passed away but i don't know if she died with Jesus in her heart or not.
What happens to someone that dies that was not as far as i know a believer ?

Treat her time at church like her hobby.

As long as she’s not ramming her faith down your throat where’s the beef?

 

[Michael LLech]

Here, check this out meanwhile, it might go some distance toward your question: Adonai Reigns : The Gospel : God did not send his son to condemn the world!

Thank you so much the passage from john 10:16 has put what i was looking for in perspective i cant tell you how much that simple passage has calmed me.

 

[Michael LLech]

Treat her time at church like her hobby.

As long as she’s not ramming her faith down your throat where’s the beef?

There shouldn't be any beef,deep down i know this.
Its very hard for me to explain without sounding like a douchbag but i feel i was hurt by god.
I was looking for him, i was begging him for a miracle and nothing happened.
Loosing my mother was the most traumatising thing that has ever happened to me.
So i guess i was more mad because even though I am not a religious person I was mad that my fiancee could now be looking at my most traumatic experience and thinking to herself that although my mother was a beautiful unselfish person, because her unselfish acts were not done for god they were done because her morals told her it was the right thing to do she could still be damned to eternal hellfire. (aka being a goat, not a sheep)

Moving forward from this though my fiancee has compromised and is only going to bible group on the Friday evening and church on Sunday evening one weekend a month, however I will be taking baby steps and attending with her with open mind, to try educate myself better and hopefully sooth the beast that i have inside of me.

 

[Larniavc]

There shouldn't be any beef,deep down i know this.
Its very hard for me to explain without sounding like a douchbag but i feel i was hurt by god.
I was looking for him, i was begging him for a miracle and nothing happened.
Loosing my mother was the most traumatising thing that has ever happened to me.
So i guess i was more mad because even though I am not a religious person I was mad that my fiancee could now be looking at my most traumatic experience and thinking to herself that although my mother was a beautiful unselfish person, because her unselfish acts were not done for god they were done because her morals told her it was the right thing to do she could still be damned to eternal hellfire. (aka being a goat, not a sheep)

Moving forward from this though my fiancee has compromised and is only going to bible group on the Friday evening and church on Sunday evening one weekend a month, however I will be taking baby steps and attending with her with open mind, to try educate myself better and hopefully sooth the beast that i have inside of me.

Yeah, no, I know what you mean. Betimes the concrete belief that some people have that the supernatural is real is maddening and if you are in a position of being angry with God rather that not thinking he exists, her bimbling along thinking God is this benevolent being who stood by as your mum died (I very sorry to hear about her death) would be infuriating.

My instinct is that this may be an insurmountable obstacle for you both.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So totally new here and don't really know the ins and out of it all... but I'm going to give it a crack.

So long story short I have been with my fiancee for 4 and a half years i love her more than life itself we were like 2 peas in a pod, however 12 months ago she starting reading the bible to learn more about Jesus and god and skip forward to this present day she has found him.
This is causing friction between us and in my head i know it shouldn't be, but i cant help that when on Sundays when she goes to church i get so angry and its a unexplained anger, her finding god shouldn't anger me the way it does, I don't know why i have such a hate for it.

So a couple of nights ago I started writing a letter to my fiancee because physically i was struggling to express my emotions so i thought maybe writing might be better, and after writing that letter I have found my problem so here is what i wrote straight from my letter.
(warning it is a bit crass and unedited)

Speaking of diseases, the women I loved the most in the whole world, my mother, was diagnosed with lung cancer.

From the start the diagnostics wasn’t good she was given 6 months to live and yet she managed to go nearly 2 years past initial life expectancy some would say that’s a blessing but if you had seen what I seen my mother go through with all the treatments, you would be saying otherwise.

So, for 2 and a half years every silent moment I had whether it be just driving, laying in bed or just even having a shower, I would be praying, praying and hoping there was a big fella up there, many of times struggling to contain tears rolling down my cheeks, but we both know what happened in the end.

Now I ask why if there is an almighty god would he allow a woman so loved, that had nothing but love for her family and friends be taken away from us, what sort of god allows such a lovely women’s children to have to continue the majority of there lives without there mother? Kylie and I were in or 20’s but Jodie had only just turned 18 she was still a child herself, I ask again what god would allow this to happen?

It was at that point I said to myself if there is a god he is [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], I then become less tolerant of religion and the people that believe in it.

So I have found why this is hurting me so much i guess after 10 years i haven't really stopped grieving, so my question to the community is... as far as i know my mother was not a religious person she did spend a lot of time in chapel before she passed away but i don't know if she died with Jesus in her heart or not.
What happens to someone that dies that was not as far as i know a believer ?

Michael, thank you for sharing this difficult personal experience. I'm sorry you lost your mother in very complicated circumstances. That's not easy to deal with, I know. However, as a Christian there is one thing you need to know about Jesus as Lord, the Son of God. He is our Mediator, and He pours out His mercy and grace on all persons, knowing every thought they each have in their entire lifetime. Although I can't say ultimately what will happen to any one person, you need to know that as Christ looks within the heart of each of us during our lifetime...He only needs to see the faintest spark of faith in our heart to ignite His grace and mercy in its full glory for us.

So, you said that your mother "did spend a lot of time in chapel before she passed." There is always the possibility, sometimes the very good possibility in such moments, that there was a spark of faith in her heart, one that God in Christ will honor in eternity. It is very possible, so don't just assume that your mother didn't have even a mustard seed of faith before she passed.

Just something to think about.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[Michael LLech]

I wasn't always like this, so judgemental, so angry when it come to this subject.
10 years ago I wouldn't say I had faith, but I wouldn't doubt its existence either, I was a fence sitter so to speak.

10 years ago i could of easily sat down and discussed Jesus and god without and hesitation, without any animosity towards the subject but as you can tell a switch got flicked inside of me.

Although i'm not really familiar with the new testament i grew up learning of the old testament and although i am sceptical of the realism of these story's i can 100 percent understand the moral of these story's and completely agree with them.

Even with Jesus I don't doubt that he ever existed, I don't doubt that he spread the word of god and the morals that he stands for, i do believe there is a realism to the bible and this man actually did once exist however I struggle to believe the miracles that it is claimed that happened.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I wasn't always like this, so judgemental, so angry when it come to this subject.
10 years ago I wouldn't say I had faith, but I wouldn't doubt its existence either, I was a fence sitter so to speak.

10 years ago i could of easily sat down and discussed Jesus and god without and hesitation, without any animosity towards the subject but as you can tell a switch got flicked inside of me.

Although i'm not really familiar with the new testament i grew up learning of the old testament and although i am sceptical of the realism of these story's i can 100 percent understand the moral of these story's and completely agree with them.

Even with Jesus I don't doubt that he ever existed, I don't doubt that he spread the word of god and the morals that he stands for, i do believe there is a realism to the bible and this man actually did once exist however I struggle to believe the miracles that it is claimed that happened.

Michael, you said that "a switch got flicked inside" of you. I understand how some of that can feel. I felt some deep frustration when my own mother, who had bouts with cancer and schizophrenia, died of a sudden heart-attack while all alone at her own home. By the time I got to the hospital, she was essentially brain-dead, and I didn't get to prepare for it or even have an opportunity to say good-bye with one last "I love you." She was gone, and that was that ...

Fortunately, despite her severe mental illness and various bouts she had with almost murderous anger and occasionally nearly blasphemous language, she did her best to try to believe in God and to have at least some faith. In that hope, I think there is the outlook that in God's care, I will see her again someday.

I know that in my own case, I still get choked up at times because not only did my mother die suddenly, she suffered well over half her lifetime from lingering trauma of child-hood abuse and mental illness. As for your own situation, it will always be difficult to remember your mother and look back on. So, just continue to take it one day at a time, and try to continue to do your best to be open to the faith in Christ that your girlfriend/wife has found, even if you find yourself disagreeable to it or you disagree with some of the interpretations that some Christians try to foist upon the Bible.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[Michael LLech]

So, just continue to take it one day at a time, and try to continue to do your best to be open to the faith in Christ that your wife has found, even if you find yourself disagreeable to it or disagreeing with some of the interpretations that some Christians try to foist upon the Bible.

Thank you this is what i intend to do, i will try and better educate myself before going off the rails.
I thank everyone that has helped me put things into perspective on this post because i was so confused and now i think i'm thinking a tad bit more clearly.
I was thinking that this was the end this would come between me and my fiancee but after all is said and done i still believe she can still be my happily ever after.

 

[Lukaris]

The Lord takes into account our disposition towards others ( Matthew 7:12 ), how we treated others ( Romans 13:8-10 ), He will determine who was good or bad ( John 5:22-30 ). St. Paul, I believe, explains this thoroughly in Romans 2 (especially verses 6-16).

 

[Michael LLech]

So i accompanied my fiancee to church tonight and well now i have to re evaluate my feelings on the subject. I wont lie i was very standoffish at the start arms crossed, i didn't want a bar of it, however when the guy started talking the arms unfolded he had me laughing he had me crying it was like he knew what i am feeling.
I actually left there tonight happy, and happy that i attended to a point that i think i want to go back.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So i accompanied my fiancee to church tonight and well now i have to re evaluate my feelings on the subject. I wont lie i was very standoffish at the start arms crossed, i didn't want a bar of it, however when the guy started talking the arms unfolded he had me laughing he had me crying it was like he knew what i am feeling.
I actually left there tonight happy, and happy that i attended to a point that i think i want to go back.

That's good to here, Michael. I really do hope, pray, (and I do think) that things can work out well between you and your fiancée. And as you wake up each day and purposefully question the levels of truth about your fiancée's faith in Christ, also realize that you have a world full of other Christians to talk, too, if you feel like you need additional viewpoints about some of the "hard sayings" in the Bible, particularly those that are in the New Testament.

However, I offer two small bits of advice, Michael: 1) Wade slowly into and explore the waters of Christian faith with your loved one, and 2) Remember that there are more ways to charitably explore Christianity, philosophically speaking, than what any one Christian denomination (or even a secular, atheist organization) will often tell you ... I say all of this as a person whose first view of the world was filtered through Carl Sagan before I became a Christian.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid