What happens to your soul/spirit when you die?

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mellymell

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There are scriptural examples to support many various ideas as to what happens when you die. But, I'd like to know what you think.

1) When a person dies, their spirit immediately goes to the presence of the Lord:
"We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord."-2 Cor. 5:8

2) When a person dies, their spirit remains here but in a state of rest, unaware of the passage of time until the resurrection:
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first..."-1 Thess. 4:16

3) Purgatory - Since I don't believe in purgatory anyway, I can't find any scriptures to support this idea.

There are plenty other scriptures to support either claim, but what is the verdict? What happens to your spirit/soul when you die?
 

brotherjim

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mellymell,

Your #2: The "dead in Christ . . . ris[ing first" does not necessarily mean that the soul existed on earth in some state of rest. It could just as easily be implied to mean that the soul is raised from "paradise" - remember the rich man/poor man story where a "great gulf [is] affixed between"?

This has been a doctrinal issue upon which the church is divided.

Your #3: Purgatory is a [loosely based - my opinion, and that of most or all "Protestants"] doctrine based mostly [?] upon a sceripture where a "pray[ing] for the dead" is mentioned.
 
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seangoh

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Originally posted by mellymell

1) When a person dies, their spirit immediately goes to the presence of the Lord:
"We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord."-2 Cor. 5:8


Hi Mellymell, i believe that when a person dies, he know not anything until the ressurection.
There are many texts in the Bible that are controversial, that's why it's important to take what is clear to explain the unclear. This text is definitely unclear because i can read out from it two meanings.
Now, if i were to ask you to expound on what 2 Cor 5:8 is saying, are you to tell me in your own words what he is truly saying easily? He says to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. On reading this, we see two implications already. Did Paull mean that when we die, we immediately go to heaven? Or when we die, we rest in the grave and wait until the ressurection but this waiting would be instantanous since the dead know nothing? (It's like sleeping for hours and the next thing you know, it's day time) That's why to Paul, He implies that the rest would be like a split second and the next thing you know, u're present with the Lord.

So, notice there are two meanings that can be attached to this verse. We are not to read INTO it but to read OUT of it. I won't explain which one is right, but just to show you the general method of rightly dividing the Word of God. It's a good text nonetheless, makes people think, that's why God wants us to study more to find the truth.
2) When a person dies, their spirit remains here but in a state of rest, unaware of the passage of time until the resurrection:
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first..."-1 Thess. 4:16

As i've said i believe when a person dies, he sleeps until the ressurection.
So is this text very clear? What can we read OUT of this text? It's saying those who were dead would rise to meet Christ. I don't believe i can read out any other interpretation. If you can please tell me.
3) Purgatory - Since I don't believe in purgatory anyway, I can't find any scriptures to support this idea.

Alexander Hislop, in his exhaustive study of the origin of Roman Catholic doctrines, finds that the doctrine of purgatory was adopted from paganism in Babylonian, Greek, and Roman mythology. In fact, the doctrine of the immortality of the soul and eternal torment in hell crept into the Rome from the pagans too. You can do a search in google to find out more.
 
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brotherjim

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Originally posted by brotherjim
mellymell,

Your #2: The "dead in Christ . . . ris[ing first" does not necessarily mean that the soul existed on earth in some state of rest. It could just as easily be implied to mean that the soul is raised from "paradise" - remember the rich man/poor man story where a "great gulf [is] affixed between"?

This has been a doctrinal issue upon which the church is divided.

-------------

Furthermore:

Since paradise was moved from its pre-Christian place of existence up into the third heaven, "the dead in Christ . . . ris[ing] first" likely means the new, post-Millennium BODY of all people will be formed from the dust of the earth as was Adam (our soul exists in paradise or "hell" until that time in a "spirit"-type body). "There's a body celestial, and a body terrestrial . . .." [para.] The misunderstanding of this is why some eroneously believe in a "soul sleep." (Read also Rick Joyner's "The Final Quest" to see the present-day view of paradise.)

In other words, human beings experience three different types of bodies over the course of their eternal existence. First the body of flesh and blood, then after death the body of spirits - recognizable to each other who are also dead, and finally the resurrected-from-the-earth body like Jesus had when He appeared onto the disciples for forty days after His resurrection and first ascension.

bro. jim
 
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seangoh

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Actually frankly speaking, i've come to realise the reason why the church is still divided. It's because we do not responsibly divide the word of truth. When we study on a topic such as this, we should pull out all the texts that speak about it. No doubt unclear texts would be pulled out too, but the clear texts would explain the unclear.

And it is this pulling out of all related texts and to find an interpretation that does not contradict any of them that is so greatly overlooked by christians.

Just take the example of the immortal soul. If we believe as such, then just think how many contradictions we would have on those clear texts which says that the dead will perish.

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. "Ecc 9:5,6

"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. "Psa 146:4

I believe these two texts are very clear. If you have any other interpretation on these two texts alone PLEASE tell me!

Now, if the soul is immortal, then i would then have to ask you how do you interpret these 2 texts rightly so that it doesn't contradict this doctrine of the immortal soul.

I'm with open ears.
 
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RevKidd

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1 For I considered all this in my heart, so that I could declare it all: that the righteous and the wise and their works are in the hand of God. People know neither love nor hatred by anything they see before them. 


2 All things come alike to all: One event happens to the righteous and the wicked; To the good,&nbsp; the clean, and the unclean; To him who sacrifices and him who does not sacrifice. As is the good, so is the sinner; He who takes an oath as he who fears an oath.&nbsp;<B><I></I></B>

3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun: that one thing happens to all. Truly the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil; madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

4 But for him who is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

5&nbsp;For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.

6&nbsp;Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun.

7&nbsp;Go, eat your bread with joy, And drink your wine with a merry heart; For God has already accepted your works. <B><I></I></B>

8&nbsp;Let your garments always be white, And let your head lack no oil.

9&nbsp;Live joyfully with the wife whom you love all the days of your vain life which He has given you under the sun, all your days of vanity; for that is your portion in life, and in the labor which you perform under the sun.

10&nbsp;Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.



<DIV>When I read the verses stated previously in there entire context.&nbsp; IMHO, I feel that the author is not trying to paint a picture of a&nbsp;"no afterlife', but rather we are all subject to a physical death.&nbsp; The good and the bad will all die.&nbsp; When thing that I found interesting is vs. 10.&nbsp; It uses the word grave (NKJV).&nbsp; But in the NASB, it translates the word grave into Sheol.&nbsp; This word can be interpreted as grave as well, but has other interpretations as well:</DIV>


<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>


<DIV>Sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit </DIV>


<OL type=a>
[*]the underworld
[*]Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
[/list]
  1. place of no return
  2. without praise of God
  3. wicked sent there for punishment
  4. righteous not abandoned to it
  5. of the place of exile (fig)
  6. of extreme degradation in sin

I am not an expert on this subject, and unfortunately&nbsp;there are many opinions as to where we go when we&nbsp;die...&nbsp;

I say just be ready....

God Bless
[/list]
[/list]
 
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seangoh

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Leviathan, although u claim u're not an expert in this subject, but i believe u've gone further into studying about it since u know sheol is grave.

My point is, the Bible is supposed to be easily understood by normal minds as long as we rightly divide the word of truth as i've said in my previous post. Just remember this, always use the clear to explain the unclear, and make sure none of the verses contradict each other. If this is done properly, we're on the right track of right interpretation.

God Bless!
 
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D.C

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I'll take the simple road without going into a long explanation citing verses and such. I believe that the soul, or whatever you want to call our essence does not die. I feel the body is nothing more then a shell, which does die. But our soul is eternal, immortal if you will. I feel that when the shell dies our soul evolves into the next step which could be the angels the bible speaks of, but these are just my ideas.
 
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brotherjim

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seangoh,

You are correct: the soul of the unbeliever is destroyed in the "second death." There are several scriptures to support this. (Post #6.)

Incorrect, however, is your statement in Post #9 where you say "the Bible is supposed to be easily understood by normal minds." The Truth of God's Word is kept hidden from all those except to whom the Father wills to reveal them. This does not occur in one fell swoop. As we prove ourselves to be good stewards with some, we then qualify for additional and deeper revelations. Contrarywise, if we, through pride, vainglory, lusts of the mind and/or flesh, etc., prove ourselves to be poor stewards, even what was first revealed will become muddled (and such cannot be reasoned with).

bro. jim
 
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brewmama

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According to the Orthodox Church the dead goes to a place of rest (not unknowing) in either Paradise or Hades, there to await the resurrection at the second coming, and final judgement. A person may grow closer to God while in this state.
 
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repentandbelieve

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&nbsp;Even though it is&nbsp;the least popular doctrine among believers&nbsp;&nbsp;I am compelled to accept veiwpoint #2 based on the amount of scriptural support for this doctine.

The truth is not always what we would like to hear, for I would prefer to believe that those who truly believe are instantly taken to heaven, but there is little biblical support that belief.

Purgatory? I see zero biblical support for this theory so I discount it as a myth.
 
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repentandbelieve

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Originally posted by brewmama
According to the Orthodox Church the dead goes to a place of rest (not unknowing) in either Paradise or Hades, there to await the resurrection at the second coming, and final judgement. A person may grow closer to God while in this state.

Could you provide scriptural support for the belief that the dead person may grow closer to God while in this state. (book chapter and vs please)
 
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brewmama

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Sanctification is not seen as a point-in-time occurrence, but as a process that doesn't end. St. Paul says "and we all , with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into His likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit."

And " the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are being saved (in the original Greek) it is the power of God."
For this reason, Orthodox Christians look upon salvation itself as a dynamic process, a continual growth in holiness, purity and closeness with God which continues even in heaven.

Also, the deadening effect of sin does not simply vanish when we accept God's forgiveness, but through on-going faith in Christ do we gradually become cleansed and healed, by the grace of the Holy Spirit. This happens as we gradually become more and more suffused with God's light and love-as we ever more completely partake of the divine nature(II Peter 1:4)
 
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repentandbelieve

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Originally posted by brewmama
Sanctification is not seen as a point-in-time occurrence, but as a process that doesn't end. St. Paul says "and we all , with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into His likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit."

And " the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are being saved (in the original Greek) it is the power of God."
For this reason, Orthodox Christians look upon salvation itself as a dynamic process, a continual growth in holiness, purity and closeness with God which continues even in heaven.

Also, the deadening effect of sin does not simply vanish when we accept God's forgiveness, but through on-going faith in Christ do we gradually become cleansed and healed, by the grace of the Holy Spirit. This happens as we gradually become more and more suffused with God's light and love-as we ever more completely partake of the divine nature(II Peter 1:4)
Thanks for your reply brewmama.&nbsp;No desrespect intended to you or St Paul, but unless I see scriptural support for this theory I cannot except it as truth.

&nbsp;In reading II Peter 1:4, &nbsp;I don't see the scripture saying anything about the continuation taking place in our "cleansing and healing" that you speak of.

Thanks again and&nbsp;God Bless you.
 
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seangoh

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Originally posted by brewmama
Hey, you do your own interpretations, and I'll do the Apostles'. It's your choice.

I've to agree that 2 Pet 1:4 doesn't even imply that the saints will go to heaven immmediately when they die and partake of a purification or sanctification process. hmm.....u sure u got the right text?

As for the other sentences, could u provide the verse, book, chapter?
 
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seangoh

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Originally posted by D.C
I'll take the simple road without going into a long explanation citing verses and such. I believe that the soul, or whatever you want to call our essence does not die. I feel the body is nothing more then a shell, which does die. But our soul is eternal, immortal if you will. I feel that when the shell dies our soul evolves into the next step which could be the angels the bible speaks of, but these are just my ideas.

I'm interested how do u interpret such verses?Since doctrine must be in harmony throughout scripture, i'd like to hear your side of the story. Do share your interpretations.

"Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen." 1 Tim 6:16

"The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence."Psa 115:17

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten" Ecc 9:5

These verses are pretty clear to me but I'd like to know your interpretation of them.
 
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