What happens to branches?

CindyisHis

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I've been looking at this scripture for a while, once again, and keep thinking the same thing. I want my WoF friends here to look at it with me and share what you hear. I reiterate - WoF people, not that we are the ONLY ones who see and understand what the Lord says to His own, but to deter arguments and ridiculous interpretations I wish to limit it to WoF as the rules say. Enough said.

Here's the Word.
John 15:2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

Here's the whole context.
John 15:1 I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.

5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.


A branch that does not bear fruit is taken away and cast into the fire. Does everyone else see that? Here's another thought that must be taken into consideration, how long does the Father bear with that branch? I'd say a long time, for He is patient and long-suffering. He also sees the end from the beginning and knows who will bear fruit.

We know the word 'prune' is a poor rendering of the Greek word. That same Greek word 'prune' in verse 2 is found one other time in the Bible, in Hebrews.

Hebrews 10:1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins?

The 'cleansed' is the exact same word in John 15:2 - 'prune'.

Getting back to the initial subject - branches that don't bear fruit are taken away and cast into the fire.

I've checked all the definitions and it's hard to read it any other way.

Many believe in OSAS. What do you do with this scripture then? How do you read it?
 

CindyisHis

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I want to add, the main focus in these scriptures for us is on the branches who DO abide in the vine. That's who we are, that's what we do. Therefore we bear much fruit. :)

Just want to hear from you about these branches that do not.
 
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excellent post.... excellent question.... praying... and reading....

one thought right now is that there are a few more scriptures on the same topic.....

first.... the tree that wasn't bearing fruit... the gardener asked the owner for 2 more years to fertilize and work on the non-producing tree.... the owner agreed.... with the decree that if after 2 more years it STILL didn't bear fruit.... it would be cut down.... uprooted.... burned in the fire.... it was called "cursed"....

second.... the book of life.... some names written in it.... some names removed....

third.... JESUS said to some people who APPEARED to be christian.... "depart from ME... I NEVER knew you"....

fourth.... john said that those who depart from the faith never belonged....

to me these seem all connected.... but....

going to study all this to see what i can see....

look forward to seeing what other wof have to say....
 
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dkbwarrior

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I've been looking at this scripture for a while, once again, and keep thinking the same thing. I want my WoF friends here to look at it with me and share what you hear. I reiterate - WoF people, not that we are the ONLY ones who see and understand what the Lord says to His own, but to deter arguments and ridiculous interpretations I wish to limit it to WoF as the rules say. Enough said.

Here's the Word.
John 15:2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

Here's the whole context.
John 15:1 I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.

5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.

A branch that does not bear fruit is taken away and cast into the fire. Does everyone else see that? Here's another thought that must be taken into consideration, how long does the Father bear with that branch? I'd say a long time, for He is patient and long-suffering. He also sees the end from the beginning and knows who will bear fruit.

We know the word 'prune' is a poor rendering of the Greek word. That same Greek word 'prune' in verse 2 is found one other time in the Bible, in Hebrews.

Hebrews 10:1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins?

The 'cleansed' is the exact same word in John 15:2 - 'prune'.

Getting back to the initial subject - branches that don't bear fruit are taken away and cast into the fire.

I've checked all the definitions and it's hard to read it any other way.

Many believe in OSAS. What do you do with this scripture then? How do you read it?

excellent post.... excellent question.... praying... and reading....

one thought right now is that there are a few more scriptures on the same topic.....

first.... the tree that wasn't bearing fruit... the gardener asked the owner for 2 more years to fertilize and work on the non-producing tree.... the owner agreed.... with the decree that if after 2 more years it STILL didn't bear fruit.... it would be cut down.... uprooted.... burned in the fire.... it was called "cursed"....

second.... the book of life.... some names written in it.... some names removed....

third.... JESUS said to some people who APPEARED to be christian.... "depart from ME... I NEVER knew you"....

fourth.... john said that those who depart from the faith never belonged....

to me these seem all connected.... but....

going to study all this to see what i can see....

look forward to seeing what other wof have to say....

Good answer HSWOF. Some of the same things that I was thinking. Also, the thought come to me of 1 Corinthians when Paul is talking of the judgement seat of Christ, where everything that is not of HIM (the wood hay and stubble) will be burnt away by the fire, and only the gold silver and precious stones will remain.

Peace...
 
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CindyisHis

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It seems to me that one who is the Lord's abides in Him. One who is not does not. The level of abiding certainly differs with each one, but one who is His does this.

I've thought about the one who knows Christ, knows Him well, been in the Word, filled with the Spirit, been with Him for a period of time and then wanders. Say this one ends up in a life completely away from Christ. Yet there is hope for this one too.
Job 14:7 For there is hope for a tree,
When it is cut down, that it will sprout again,
And its shoots will not fail.


We know the Lord will never, ever, no never, leave us nor forsake us. (Hebrews 13:5-6) We may be faithless, but He remains faithful. (2 Tim. ?) During that time away from the Lord the Holy Spirit will be ministering to that person, faithfully bringing back to his memory the things the Lord has spoken. John 14:25 “I have spoken these things to you while I remain with you. 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit —the Father will send Him in My name—will teach you all things and remind you of everything I have told you.

He won't quit. He won't fail.

The person continues in that way then his heart will be hardened. I believe that one can come to a place he can no longer hear the voice of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit won't quit, but he has lost his sense of hearing, having ears but hearing not, eyes but seeing not.

It is clear in John 15 that these branches will be cast into the fire.

Fire of hell, or fire of trials?
 
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It seems to me that one who is the Lord's abides in Him. One who is not does not. The level of abiding certainly differs with each one, but one who is His does this.

I've thought about the one who knows Christ, knows Him well, been in the Word, filled with the Spirit, been with Him for a period of time and then wanders. Say this one ends up in a life completely away from Christ. Yet there is hope for this one too.
Job 14:7 For there is hope for a tree,
When it is cut down, that it will sprout again,
And its shoots will not fail.

We know the Lord will never, ever, no never, leave us nor forsake us. (Hebrews 13:5-6) We may be faithless, but He remains faithful. (2 Tim. ?) During that time away from the Lord the Holy Spirit will be ministering to that person, faithfully bringing back to his memory the things the Lord has spoken. John 14:25 “I have spoken these things to you while I remain with you. 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit —the Father will send Him in My name—will teach you all things and remind you of everything I have told you.

He won't quit. He won't fail.

The person continues in that way then his heart will be hardened. I believe that one can come to a place he can no longer hear the voice of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit won't quit, but he has lost his sense of hearing, having ears but hearing not, eyes but seeing not.

It is clear in John 15 that these branches will be cast into the fire.

Fire of hell, or fire of trials?
i take it to mean total irrevocable destruction.... rather than a bed of affliction....

but then i temper it with JESUS saying "i NEVER knew you".... to those who THOUGHT they WERE true believers.... NEVER means NEVER....

and john saying that.... the fact they left the faith.... proves that they NEVER were of the faith.... they only APPEARED to be of the faith....

my take on this is that some "convert" with their WILL... in their own strength.... etc... make a decision of the mind.... but RESERVE their heart for themselves.... and DON'T ever become a NEW CREATION....

and this "conversion"... can be changed when the mind changes.... which is the true meaning of the BIBLE word repent.... metamnous.... means change of mind.... we can all change our mind ANYTIME we hear things that influence us to change our thinking on any given subject.... we can even flop back and forth....

but a new creation miracle is a change of BEING.... and one must of their own free will believe.... confess.... and surrender their entire core to JESUS.... this is irreversible.... and cannot be in ANY way ALTERED.... a birth by the HOLY SPIRIT with all the old gone.... and ALL things being made new....

the mind of a new creation believer.... can change about many things.... but their spirit.... inner core.... is permanently transformed..... recreated...

the HOLY SEED remains in them 1john says... and they can NOT continue to sin.... even if they have bouts of confusion and foolishness.... the HOLY SEED within them keeps working.... to bring them to truth.... to new creation realities.... their default settng is "saved".... they will keep landing there because of the HOLY SEED that REMAINS within them.... permanently anchors them there.... and the more they renew their mind... the shorter the anchor chain gets.... so that eventually they don't "wander" from their "HOLY" default setting....

where as a "converted" soul... is not yet anchored/recreated... by the HOLY SPIRIT.... because they did not surrender completely.... they reserve their heart and core being for themselves.... they choose to hang onto "HOLINESS" and GOD with their mind/will/emotions.... and RESERVE control for themselves.... their default setting is still in the old nature....

so when either the new creation christian.... or the "soul conversion" christian.... have soul confusion.... they can experience the same kinds or buffeting.... and behavior abnormalities.... but they have completely different default settings.... due to WHO anchors them from their inside core....

so as paul told timothy.... even if we are faithless.... HE is still faithful.... but if we disown HIM.... HE will disown us.... a new creation believer could never disown JESUS.... because the HOLY SEED inside him can NOT do that.... but a "soul conversion" believer could disown JESUS.... if something caused them to change their thinking about clinging to JESUS....

IOW.... a new creation believer surrenders all to JESUS.... and the HOLY SPIRIT takes hold of him and permanently recreates him.... a "soul conversion" believer holds onto JESUS.... because he isn't ready to let the HOLY SPIRIT have him.... control is reserved by self....

and NONE of us can look at another person and know 100% for sure what kind of a believer another person really is.... we can be fooled by wheat and tares.... GOD.... and possibly HIS angels.... are the only ones who know who is really who....

just some of my musings.... i wanted to work this all out BEFORE posting.... but maybe we can work it out together....
 
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CindyisHis

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I like the terminology/analogy you used - default settings. :D
That's very good.

But in John 15:1-2 it is clear that these were branches who were cut off and thrown into the fire, and I like you, believe it is an eternal flame, they were branches. Branches are a part of the tree.

Think about a tree. Branches are connected. They draw life from the trunk whose roots go down into the earth. We've all seen trees with dead branches. There are a few twigs now on my rose bush that are dried up. No roses bloom off those twigs. I'm going to cut it off and take it out to the road where they'll be picked on Wednesday by workers. As far as I'm concerned they're gone.

I see that a branch can be connected and never draw from the life that is in the tree.

As I write this I think about the mercy of the Lord who will not snuff out smoking flax. Know the scripture I'm referring to? A bruised reed He will not break nor quench smoking flax.
 
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I like the terminology/analogy you used - default settings. :D
That's very good.

But in John 15:1-2 it is clear that these were branches who were cut off and thrown into the fire, and I like you, believe it is an eternal flame, they were branches. Branches are a part of the tree.

Think about a tree. Branches are connected. They draw life from the trunk whose roots go down into the earth. We've all seen trees with dead branches. There are a few twigs now on my rose bush that are dried up. No roses bloom off those twigs. I'm going to cut it off and take it out to the road where they'll be picked on Wednesday by workers. As far as I'm concerned they're gone.

I see that a branch can be connected and never draw from the life that is in the tree.

As I write this I think about the mercy of the Lord who will not snuff out smoking flax. Know the scripture I'm referring to? A bruised reed He will not break nor quench smoking flax.
i take that to mean "soul conversion" believers.... who aren't bearing fruit.... they believe in GOD.... (so does the devil and his angels).... but they have not SURRENDERED to GOD and become a NEW CREATION believer.... so of course they cannot REALLY bear fruit.... they can only APPEAR to bear fruit....

like the ones who said "LORD LORD... did we not do xxxxxx and xxxxx and xxxxxx in YOUR name?"...... and JESUS replied "depart from ME you EVILDOERS.... I NEVER knew you"....

they obviously had some kind of publicly noticeable accomplishments.... that really do appear righteous and holy..... so WHAT could possibly be wrong with these VERY good deeds they did?....

somehow it is connected to "I NEVER knew you".... and JESUS called them evil-doers".....

so a "soul conversion" believer is somehow still UN-righteous in GOD'S eyes..... and CAN be cut off from the vine..... gathered up.... and thrown into the fire.... and PERISH.....

they aren't REALLY HIS possesion.... and they do NOT have ETERNAL LIFE.... they have been clinging to HIM.... USING HIM.... the vine.... but would not GIVE themselves to HIM.... and let HIM HAVE them and abide in them.... as ONLY a new creation.... born of the HOLY SPIRIT can....

so they are really not saved by faith.... or have righteousness that comes by faith.... they are TRYING to be saved by works..... and obtain their own righteousness.... which i guess reveals a wickedly UN-surrendered UN-regenerated heart/life.... and i think it is hebrews that says that they "did not enter into HIS REST.... because of their UNBELIEF".....

what kind of unbelief?.... they didn't trust HIM enought to surrender?.... they believed HIM.... but didn't trust HIM?.... they didn't surrender to HIM?.... make HIM truly LORD?....

agains... still musing.... and trying to understand all this.... awesome thread CINDY..... you are a sweet blessing here.....
 
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pdudgeon

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i'm thinking that there are three examples given in this passage--

1.one example of pruning and what happens to what is pruned away.
2.the second example of the branches that bear fruit.
3.the third example of the branches that do not bear fruit when all expectations are that they will bear fruit.

pruning is what we often experience when we get too much 'into ourselves' as young Christians, and become so zealous that we forget to listen for the Lord's direction on how to do things, but gleefully carry on producing lots of leaves but no fruit.
When that happens, God prunes us back, taking care of that over-zelous growth. and He prunes back instead to a flower, the part of the plant He designed to produce the fruit. In us, He will prune back to the original basic fruitful idea so that we can develop and grow the idea into a fruitful offering for His glory as it was intended to do.

the second idea we see is that of a branch that bears fruit. that branch, from a healthy tree that is well watered and fed with God's word, which He has promised will produce fruit that will not return to Him empty, but will instead go out to accomplish that for which He sent it forth.

the third idea is that of a branch that produces leaves and lots of them, when the expectation was of finding fruit. We have to be careful on this one, because in nature only mature branches produce fruit--the rest of them produce leaves.

the only exception is that of a tree which has a branch growing from an original root (called the root stock) instead of from the grafted part of the tree.

we don't think about it very much, but when a branch grows from that rootstock it is a wild branch which produces a different fruit. that fruit is often either sub standard, or of a different type than that of the grafted part of the tree. it's a renegade. and if allowed to grow, it can overpower and divert the food and water that was ment for the graft for it's own purpose, and kill the graft in the process.
 
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hhodgson

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the thought come to me of 1 Corinthians when Paul is talking of the judgement seat of Christ, where everything that is not of HIM (the wood hay and stubble) will be burnt away by the fire, and only the gold silver and precious stones will remain.

Peace...

Great thought Dan, confirms what I brought up about "examining ourselves," even as we post, especially since things are happening fast all around us...agree..?


...and NONE of us can look at another person and know 100% for sure what kind of a believer another person really is.... we can be fooled by wheat and tares.... GOD.... and possibly HIS angels.... are the only ones who know who is really who....

This fits right in with Dan's thought about the judgment seat of Christ... Only way we are to "know them" here in this world is by the fruit we/they bare whether good or bad, and that takes some time, and again, we need to constantly "examine ourselves.." Agree..?


pruning is what we often experience when we get too much 'into ourselves' as young Christians, and become so zealous that we forget to listen for the Lord's direction on how to do things, but gleefully carry on producing lots of leaves but no fruit.

When that happens, God prunes us back, taking care of that over-zelous growth. and He prunes back instead to a flower, the part of the plant He designed to produce the fruit. In us, He will prune back to the original basic fruitful idea so that we can develop and grow the idea into a fruitful offering for His glory as it was intended to do.

we don't think about it very much, but when a branch grows from that rootstock it is a wild branch which produces a different fruit. that fruit is often either sub standard, or of a different type than that of the grafted part of the tree. it's a renegade. and if allowed to grow, it can overpower and divert the food and water that was ment for the graft for it's own purpose, and kill the graft in the process.

Great thoughts Pam, only thing I can add just a little if I may is that, even as "mature Christians," we can get too much "into ourselves.." Agree..?


I've thought about the one who knows Christ, knows Him well, been in the Word, filled with the Spirit, been with Him for a period of time and then wanders. Say this one ends up in a life completely away from Christ. Yet there is hope for this one too.

We know the Lord will never, ever, no never, leave us nor forsake us. (Hebrews 13:5-6) We may be faithless, but He remains faithful. (2 Tim. ?) During that time away from the Lord the Holy Spirit will be ministering to that person, faithfully bringing back to his memory the things the Lord has spoken.

The person continues in that way then his heart will be hardened. I believe that one can come to a place he can no longer hear the voice of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit won't quit, but he has lost his sense of hearing, having ears but hearing not, eyes but seeing not.

These are also great thoughts, the only thing I would change here is, if I may is to include he/she in the third paragraph...Agree..?

I just heard Andrew Wommack say "this quote" this morning as he was teaching on self centerness. ..."self centerness is the major source of all grief...It is centered on our self.." This fits in a little about what were all talking about...Gotta say it one more time, "examine ourselves.."

Why am I so hung up on that particular quote? We have a major WoF teacher/preacher that MAY be hoping he would have thought about it more...We will see how it all pans out for him and his family, but we can examine ourselves now, you never know what is down the road... Agree..?

Lord, examine me...
___________
Harry
 
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CindyisHis

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Harry, of course you can include 'she'! ^_^ Being a homeschool mom and dealing with English, writing, etc., 'he' is the pronoun used for 'a person', as when the Bible says 'man', we know this means mankind, male and female. :)
 
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pdudgeon

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from Harry:
Great thoughts Pam, only thing I can add just a little if I may is that, even as "mature Christians," we can get too much "into ourselves.." Agree..?

i agree. but the cure for that is to remember that as Christians we are working together in the yoke with Christ and wearing the yoke that He designed just for us. remembering that in itself will ease some of the burdens we bear--we don't labor alone, but He labors along with us.:thumbsup:
 
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