What happens after death?

[seaofsand]

I have been considering the Orthodox Church for about a year, and now that restrictions are finally loosening, I will be visiting a church soon. We're moving to a new state at the end of the month, so I'm waiting until we get there to find a church to visit.

Currently, my grandmother is dying and is in hospice care. She may pass at any time now. She is a Christian and is at peace with the inevitable, and I find peace with her acceptance of it. Having someone close to me go through the death process has raised a lot of questions for me about what happens at death, especially as I consider the Orthodox Church. I've read about Orthodox views on death on a few different websites, but it seems there are some conflicting opinions on it.

Do souls "sleep" in death until the final judgment? Or do they remain conscious and active on the other side until that time? And what is the Orthodox opinion on the concept of family spirits? I ask this because, in my family, several of us have seen deceased relatives or been visited by them during difficult times, like when another relative dies. Would this be seen as something delusional or demonic in the Church? Or is it possible? For me, this is comforting when it happens, but I want to know how the Church would see it. For example, many people see a dead relative when their own death approaches, and in my family, we believe that the dead relative has come to help in the process and make it more peaceful.

I appreciate any opinions on these issues. I realize that, if I choose to convert, I may have to drop some of these beliefs or change my way of thinking about them. I cannot deny my own experiences, though, and it would be hard for me to believe that souls simply sleep in the grave for centuries while they wait.

 

[BobRyan]

Do souls "sleep" in death until the final judgment?

What does your Bible say in 1 Thess 4:13-18?

 

[Mark Quayle]

I have been considering the Orthodox Church for about a year, and now that restrictions are finally loosening, I will be visiting a church soon. We're moving to a new state at the end of the month, so I'm waiting until we get there to find a church to visit.

Currently, my grandmother is dying and is in hospice care. She may pass at any time now. She is a Christian and is at peace with the inevitable, and I find peace with her acceptance of it. Having someone close to me go through the death process has raised a lot of questions for me about what happens at death, especially as I consider the Orthodox Church. I've read about Orthodox views on death on a few different websites, but it seems there are some conflicting opinions on it.

Do souls "sleep" in death until the final judgment? Or do they remain conscious and active on the other side until that time? And what is the Orthodox opinion on the concept of family spirits? I ask this because, in my family, several of us have seen deceased relatives or been visited by them during difficult times, like when another relative dies. Would this be seen as something delusional or demonic in the Church? Or is it possible? For me, this is comforting when it happens, but I want to know how the Church would see it. For example, many people see a dead relative when their own death approaches, and in my family, we believe that the dead relative has come to help in the process and make it more peaceful.

I appreciate any opinions on these issues. I realize that, if I choose to convert, I may have to drop some of these beliefs or change my way of thinking about them. I cannot deny my own experiences, though, and it would be hard for me to believe that souls simply sleep in the grave for centuries while they wait.

Personally, 'if I were you', I'd try to drop all notion of time passage in the Spiritual, or even simply 'Post Death' realm. God is the inventor of time. I see no reason to think he is subject to it, nor that it is of any use but for us locked into this temporal universe.

We attribute absolute substance to time, as if it governs all things. Time certainly does not govern God! And even the scientific community says it is relative. I think 'soul sleep' is the rendering our minds need to conceive of the fact there is no time between death and a person's final destination. "Today you will be with me in Paradise"

 

[Lukaris]

I asked our parish priest your questions by e-mail & he replied:


Hi Ed,
Hope you're doing well today.
I'll try to answer as briefly and concisely as possible.
Souls do not "sleep" until the Last Judgment. They experience a partial judgment in the sense that they experience a foretaste of heaven, which is being in the presence of God, or what is often called "hell" which is being separated from God. They are not asleep but are in a state of awareness. Several "proofs" of this are the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, in which both were departed but fully aware of their own situations as well as the situation of the other. Lazarus was in the presence of God--Abraham's bosom--while the Rich Man was tormented because he was separated from God and didn't want his family members to suffer the same fate. A second "proof" is shown in the Icon of Holy Saturday known as the Descent into Hades or in the Western tradition the Descent into Limbo. It shows what we believe, that is while Christ's body lay lifeless in the tomb, His soul was nevertheless aware and active conquering Death and raising up Adam and Eve and those waiting in Hades for the coming of the Messiah.
We must also remember that when we are departed, we are no longer in "earthly" time but "Heavenly" or "God's" time. As a result, a thousand years are like one second in our earthly time. So those who have departed have not been waiting or will not be waiting for hundreds of thousands of years in "earthly" time for Christ to come again. It will be like a matter of seconds.
There is nothing "demonic" or "delusional" about the departed "visiting" the living. We have numerous accounts of Saints doing just that. I have witnessed accounts of many cases of this where departed loved ones "appeared" to living relatives, sometimes to comfort them and at other times to let them know that their earthly life was about to end and their eternal life was about to begin and they would soon be reunited. Many have been comforted and others comforted and prepared for death by those "visions". This is not far fetched because, as I said earlier, their souls remain alive and active and we do believe that we will be reunited with our departed loved ones when this earthly life ends and we will join them to await Christ's second coming

 

[ArmyMatt]

what you encounter is the risen Christ in His glory.

could the non-Orthodox please realize that you are in the Orthodox forum, and it's against the rules to post stuff against Orthodoxy?

 

[Mark Quayle]

what you encounter is the risen Christ in His glory.

could the non-Orthodox please realize that you are in the Orthodox forum, and it's against the rules to post stuff against Orthodoxy?

My bad, once again. Apparently I need to develop the habit of finding out if we are in the Orthodox place. Once, again, sorry. I will edit my post out.

Edit: I just read my post again --it is not meant against the Orthodox at all, unless my idea of time passage not being of substance beyond this temporal world is against the Orthodox. Please advise. I will delete my post if requested to.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Edit: I just read my post again --it is not meant against the Orthodox at all, unless my idea of time passage not being of substance beyond this temporal world is against the Orthodox. Please advise. I will delete my post if requested to.

you're good. the only issue is soul sleep. for us it's a very specific heresy.

 

[seaofsand]

Thank you for this, and thank your priest for me. This is extremely helpful and exactly what I was seeking here.

I grew up a Protestant with various denominations in my family, and I do remember certain relatives believing that we "sleep in the grave" until Judgment Day or the Rapture. Not all of my family believed this, obviously. It's a relief to hear the Orthodox view on this.

And I agree that God exists outside the confines of time and space and earthly laws, and that we will find a similar freedom with Him after death. From my own personal experience, my departed relatives still exist, very much aware and awake, outside those laws as well. My grandmother is soon to leave this world, and I am comforted by the thought that her departed family will meet her there.

I asked our parish priest your questions by e-mail & he replied:


Hi Ed,
Hope you're doing well today.
I'll try to answer as briefly and concisely as possible.
Souls do not "sleep" until the Last Judgment. They experience a partial judgment in the sense that they experience a foretaste of heaven, which is being in the presence of God, or what is often called "hell" which is being separated from God. They are not asleep but are in a state of awareness. Several "proofs" of this are the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, in which both were departed but fully aware of their own situations as well as the situation of the other. Lazarus was in the presence of God--Abraham's bosom--while the Rich Man was tormented because he was separated from God and didn't want his family members to suffer the same fate. A second "proof" is shown in the Icon of Holy Saturday known as the Descent into Hades or in the Western tradition the Descent into Limbo. It shows what we believe, that is while Christ's body lay lifeless in the tomb, His soul was nevertheless aware and active conquering Death and raising up Adam and Eve and those waiting in Hades for the coming of the Messiah.
We must also remember that when we are departed, we are no longer in "earthly" time but "Heavenly" or "God's" time. As a result, a thousand years are like one second in our earthly time. So those who have departed have not been waiting or will not be waiting for hundreds of thousands of years in "earthly" time for Christ to come again. It will be like a matter of seconds.
There is nothing "demonic" or "delusional" about the departed "visiting" the living. We have numerous accounts of Saints doing just that. I have witnessed accounts of many cases of this where departed loved ones "appeared" to living relatives, sometimes to comfort them and at other times to let them know that their earthly life was about to end and their eternal life was about to begin and they would soon be reunited. Many have been comforted and others comforted and prepared for death by those "visions". This is not far fetched because, as I said earlier, their souls remain alive and active and we do believe that we will be reunited with our departed loved ones when this earthly life ends and we will join them to await Christ's second coming

 

[prodromos]

What does your Bible say in 1 Thess 4:13-18?

What does our Lord say in John 11:11-14?

It's a euphemism for death.

 

[Carl Emerson]

There is nothing "demonic" or "delusional" about the departed "visiting" the living. We have numerous accounts of Saints doing just that. I have witnessed accounts of many cases of this where departed loved ones "appeared" to living relatives, sometimes to comfort them and at other times to let them know that their earthly life was about to end and their eternal life was about to begin and they would soon be reunited. Many have been comforted and others comforted and prepared for death by those "visions".

There are many life experiences that impress, but our measure of reality is what scripture says.

We have direct commentary on this claim in scripture and there is clearly a time of sleep for the saved. However as we are released from chronology at death the waiting period is as an instant in our experience.

I have to conclude then that visitations of the dead are delusional or demonic.

However a vision is different than an appearance. Jesus can inspire a vision for comfort and encouragement but this means of communication does not involve the deceased individual.

 

[Mark Quayle]

There are many life experiences that impress, but our measure of reality is what scripture says.

We have direct commentary on this claim in scripture and there is clearly a time of sleep for the saved. However as we are released from chronology at death the waiting period is as an instant in our experience.

I have to conclude then that visitations of the dead are delusional or demonic.

However a vision is different than an appearance. Jesus can inspire a vision for comfort and encouragement but this means of communication does not involve the deceased individual.

Not to disagree with you in general principle, but when Samuel appeared to Saul and the Witch at Endor, he didn't seem very happy about it, and the witch seemed rather taken aback. I believe it was indeed Samuel.

Nevertheless, that does not change the fact that Samuel was outside of chronology, as you put it. I think he realized what was going on, that he had been 'brought back' by God for this one purpose, and that when the seance was over, he was going to see God.

I also believe God can do whatever he wants out of the ordinary. But yes, I think you are right. Generally, the 'appearances' are by the mind of the viewer --no less real to them for being so, however. And God is not ignorant of what they see --in my theology he even planned for that to happen.

 

[prodromos]

I have to conclude then that visitations of the dead are delusional or

That puts you in opposition to 1 Samuel 28 an Orthodox teaching.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Not to disagree with you in general principle, but when Samuel appeared to Saul and the Witch at Endor, he didn't seem very happy about it, and the witch seemed rather taken aback. I believe it was indeed Samuel.

Nevertheless, that does not change the fact that Samuel was outside of chronology, as you put it. I think he realized what was going on, that he had been 'brought back' by God for this one purpose, and that when the seance was over, he was going to see God.

I also believe God can do whatever he wants out of the ordinary. But yes, I think you are right. Generally, the 'appearances' are by the mind of the viewer --no less real to them for being so, however. And God is not ignorant of what they see --in my theology he even planned for that to happen.

I am not convinced it was Samual.

I cant imagine a Holy God breaking His order at the wim of a witch...

 

[Carl Emerson]

That puts you in opposition to 1 Samuel 28 an Orthodox teaching.

I apologise - I failed to realise this was an EO thread - sorry.

 

[Mark Quayle]

That puts you in opposition to 1 Samuel 28 an Orthodox teaching.

I should think God is able to anything he wants. Samuel may well be an exception. That doesn't mean that God can't do these other things, but I don't see Scriptural precedent for it being so common.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I am not convinced it was Samual.

I cant imagine a Holy God breaking His order at the wim of a witch...

I think the witch was incidental. It was for God's purposes to play Saul's game, and to make an absolute fool of him, and to ruin him. Not to mention to make an occasion for this conversation!

 

[prodromos]

I am not convinced it was Samual.

Verse 15 says it was Samuel speaking. You embark on a very slippery slope if you start deciding bits of Scripture aren't true.

I cant imagine a Holy God breaking His order at the wim of a witch...

What order are you talking about?

 

[Lukaris]

If I may take liberty with what our parish priest said re the comfort the earthly living received from the departed. None of these involve any sort of preconceived, premeditated actions but are probably akin to what Joel prophesies in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit ( Joel 2:28-32), per St. Peter ( Acts of the Apostles 2:17-21). The Spirit Who proceeds from the Father ( John 15:26), Who teaches all things etc. ( John 14:26-27). These are not grandiose deceptions but blessings of a personal nature.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I expect God to be consistent with His own Word and this story does not express principles consistent with what we know are His expectations and order.

So I don't doubt the story but think it more likely that the voice of Samuel was coming from a deceiving spirit sent from from God.

 

[prodromos]

I expect God to be consistent with His own Word and this story does not express principles consistent with what we know are His expectations and order.

I'm afraid that is too vague. God permits a great many evils to occur in this world because He respects the free will He has given us. What is it about this particular evil that makes it unlikely in your mind?

So I don't doubt the story but think it more likely that the voice of Samuel was coming from a deceiving spirit sent from from God.

Verse 15 really doesn't allow for that option. I find it much harder to believe God's word would say Samuel was speaking if in fact it was a demon speaking.