What happened to those who believe in UR.

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squint

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the problem with universalism is the doctrine that "all dogs go to heaven"... there is no hell / eternal punsihment ... when Jesus said that there is 1 life , then judgement ...and when God spoke to John about the lake of fire, the beast, fasle prophet and his followers being thrown into the lake of fire ...

scripture supports neither purgatory or parole for the damned ...

And that would be a false perspective of Christian Universalism.

Many Christian Universalists STILL believe in every eternal torment/damnation/wrath scripture. But we also see that the flesh of mankind contains more than just "mankind." Devilkind also happens to abide there as well, so in this way we "divide" our fellow man from what we are "all" bound with in the flesh which same will utterly perish.
 
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KCDAD

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the problem with universalism is the doctrine that "all dogs go to heaven"... there is no hell / eternal punsihment ... when Jesus said that there is 1 life , then judgement ...and when God spoke to John about the lake of fire, the beast, fasle prophet and his followers being thrown into the lake of fire ...

scripture supports neither purgatory or parole for the damned ...
God didn't speak to John about a lake of fire... God doesn't speak. My dog speaks... sort of... but God does not speak.

God does not think of us as dogs... we are his children and like any parent, will not suffer their children to be unfairly treated. Eternal punishment, damnation, destruction, nothingness... whatever you believe hell is, God will not suffer us to suffer it, nor will he suffer for eternity to be apart from his creation. (His perfect, good creation.)
 
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KCDAD

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And that would be a false perspective of Christian Universalism.

Many Christian Universalists STILL believe in every eternal torment/damnation/wrath scripture. But we also see that the flesh of mankind contains more than just "mankind." Devilkind also happens to abide there as well, so in this way we "divide" our fellow man from what we are "all" bound with in the flesh which same will utterly perish.
Devilkind? These creations of God... these are creations that are not good?
 
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Spade48d

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the problem with universalism is the doctrine that "all dogs go to heaven"... there is no hell / eternal punsihment ... when Jesus said that there is 1 life , then judgement ...and when God spoke to John about the lake of fire, the beast, fasle prophet and his followers being thrown into the lake of fire ...

scripture supports neither purgatory or parole for the damned ...
Hello Plmarquette,

Most of my misunderstanding of the scripture seems to come from a bad translation of the greek word aionios. It seems that the most appropriate translation should be "of the world to come" rather than the inappropriate word eternal. Therefore, in the sentence of our Saviour on the judgment-day, the word aionios means pertaining to the world to come, and not eternal and everlasting, as it has been badly translated. [There is an excellent treatise on the word aionios included in a work by Edward Beecher, D.D called History of Opinion on the Scriptural Doctrine of Retribution ----that I found remarkable. ]

The question then seems to be.

What is the punishment of the world to come? Is the ultimate of the world to come to be --annihilation after just punishment, or final restoration after severe remedial punishment, or endless suffering?”

It wasn't until the sixth century when Justinian forced a ruling against univesalism as heresy. During third century and up then most theological schools supported some sort of universal restoration of man.

It has been shown through historical research that annihilation, eternal torment and universal restoration were common ideologies among the Jews in the centuries just prior to Christ.

The fact that these three views were still prevalent, especially through the third century AD tells you that scripture did not demand or even persuade one particular belief. Why did the church through Justinian force ET doctrine? My guess is to impart fear as a political device to gain control, solidarity and converts.afraid of going to hell.

Where does this leave us. Well, for me, I have found no conclusive literally translated scriptural support for eternal torture of humans. Can you draw an inference of it. Yes. There are lots of passages that might suggest it but not to outright say it.

I once believed in annihilation because the thought of eternal torture just seemed totally uncharacteristic of a God of love and mercy to show after 80 years of sinning in an imperfect body flawed to gravitate to sinning. The gospels are supposed to be good news. Whats is the good news if not that its not all hopeless. The clincher for me was the following scripture:

Rotherham) 1cor 15:28 But whensoever have been put into subjection, unto him, the all things, then, the Son himself, also shall be put in subjection unto him who put in subjection, unto him, the all things,—that, God, may be, all things in all.

As Christ submits Himself to the Father then all things would be submitted to Christ just like He submits Himself to the Father To me how can God be All in All any other way that final restoration to all things being holy.

That's just very briefly some of what I got to from scripture with a greek literal translation significantly different from my old King James stand by. I hope I wasn't too brief such that the thoughts seem curt and unclear.


I would like to hear your thoughts or anyone else on this.
 
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squint

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I thought everything God created was good?

You must be mistaken about this. It is impossible for both God and "devilkind" to exist.

There is surely evil. There is surely the promotion of eternal torture of our fellow mankind in fire, even to those whom we are commanded to Love.

What the hearts of men sometimes don't see is that God Is Greater than THE SUM OF ALL EVIL and HIS LOVE has, does and will encompass all of us in Victory.

Isaiah 45:
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
 
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KCDAD

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There is surely evil. There is surely the promotion of eternal torture of our fellow mankind in fire, even to those whom we are commanded to Love.

What the hearts of men sometimes don't see is that God Is Greater than THE SUM OF ALL EVIL and HIS LOVE has, does and will encompass all of us in Victory.

Isaiah 45:
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
You know, I actually agree with you in principle. God did create evil... but it is not a devil and it is not a demon or serpent or anything like that. It is our own selfishness and self-centeredness. We are the evil one when we pursue our self interests instead of the interests of the our neighbors... when we think that "I" am more important than "us".


Look at everything we call sin or evil. It is always a selfish act. Look at what we call noble, courageous and good. It is always a selfless act.


Yes, Virginia, there is a Satan... and he is us.
 
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squint

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You know, I actually agree with you in principle. God did create evil... but it is not a devil and it is not a demon or serpent or anything like that. It is our own selfishness and self-centeredness.

If that is the case then you are blaming, accusing and counting sins against your SELF, and I'm sure more particularly against your fellow man, which is strictly advised AGAINST in the Word.

1 John 3:
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Anytime you want to count sins against yourself or other people, come back to these Words and tell me if you have not violated them or show me how to get around these statements, (not that I want to get around them.)

We are the evil one

hmmm....that may be your confession...but not one that is taken in the LIGHT of His Sacrifice for ALL eh?

when we pursue our self interests instead of the interests of the our neighbors... when we think that "I" am more important than "us".

I am sure the way to count sins against ourselves or our fellow man is nearly endless eh?
Look at everything we call sin or evil. It is always a selfish act. Look at what we call noble, courageous and good. It is always a selfless act.

Or perhaps, and more likely, those who do such things do so as SLAVES to sin and do not realize sin as something from the DEVIL and only to THEMSELVES?

Yes, Virginia, there is a Satan... and he is us.

I'll not be taking your confessions of being Satan today....sorry.

enjoy!

squint
 
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Evergreen48

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KCDAD said:
You know, I actually agree with you in principle. God did create evil...
God did not create the evil that we do. But He did create us with the ability to create evil.
but it is not a devil and it is not a demon or serpent or anything like that. It is our own selfishness and self-centeredness. We are the evil one when we pursue our self interests instead of the interests of the our neighbors... when we think that "I" am more important than "us".


Look at everything we call sin or evil. It is always a selfish act. Look at what we call noble, courageous and good. It is always a selfless act.


Yes, Virginia, there is a Satan... and he is us.

Couldn't agree with you more! :thumbsup: :amen:

Answer the following questions and then you will know who Jesus was speaking to in the desert.

Who was it that was very hungry for food that would satisfy His fleshly need after He had fasted for 40 days and 40 nights?

Who was it that knew that all He had to do was ask His Father, and He would, right then and there, give Him more than twelve legions of angels to save Him from any danger or foe?

Who was it, that after He had fed a great mass of people with only five loaves of bread and two small fish, hid himself from them because he percieved that they would come and take him by force and make him their king?

Who was it that was tempted in all the ways in which we are tempted overcame those fleshly desires and sinned not?

"But EVERY MAN is tempted, when he is drawn away of his OWN desire, and enticed."

That scripture doesn't say that it is some mysterious entity inside a person that tempts and tries that person. But it says that it is a person's OWN desire which does so.

If you do not know by now who that great adversary is that is called by epithet, the devil or satan, then surely you have not seriously considered the deep things which are contained in the scriptures. For almost every page of the bible spells it out in no uncertain terms:

S- E- L- F !
http://foru.ms/showthread.php?p=37439417#post37439417
 
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squint

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God did not create the evil that we do. But He did create us with the ability to create evil.


Couldn't agree with you more! :thumbsup: :amen:

Answer the following questions and then you will know who Jesus was speaking to in the desert.

Who was it that was very hungry for food that would satisfy His fleshly need after He had fasted for 40 days and 40 nights?

Who was it that knew that all He had to do was ask His Father, and He would, right then and there, give Him more than twelve legions of angels to save Him from any danger or foe?

Who was it, that after He had fed a great mass of people with only five loaves of bread and two small fish, hid himself from them because he percieved that they would come and take him by force and make him their king?

Who was it that was tempted in all the ways in which we are tempted overcame those fleshly desires and sinned not?

"But EVERY MAN is tempted, when he is drawn away of his OWN desire, and enticed."

That scripture doesn't say that it is some mysterious entity inside a person that tempts and tries that person. But it says that it is a person's OWN desire which does so.

If you do not know by now who that great adversary is that is called by epithet, the devil or satan, then surely you have not seriously considered the deep things which are contained in the scriptures. For almost every page of the bible spells it out in no uncertain terms:

S- E- L- F !
http://foru.ms/showthread.php?p=37439417#post37439417http://foru.ms/showthread.php?p=37439417#post37439417http://foru.ms/showthread.php?p=37439417#post37439417http://foru.ms/showthread.php?p=37439417#post37439417http://foru.ms/showthread.php?p=37439417#post37439417

So Jesus was speaking to Himself AS SATAN?

I believe that understanding is an utter atrocity and those who speak such things do not speak truth.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed,"

If saying Jesus was Satan isn't saying Jesus is cursed, I really don't know what is.

My how far understanding has fallen.
 
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KCDAD

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Satan is not a being.... satan means adversary... we are our own adversary... it is called consciousness.

Why do find it somehow justified to blame "someone else" for your sin? If it is "Satan's" or "the devil's" fault, how can we be held accountable?

Why don't you just do whatever you feel like doing and then tell God it is not your fault... "the devil made me do it"? See if that flies.

And yes, Jesus was talking with himself, debating within his own mind and soul about his doubts, hunger, fears, etc... just like we all do.
 
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KCDAD

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No one said Jesus is Satan. The correct understanding is satan (the adversary) is a part of all of us. Satan is not a person. I suggest you look for references to satan in the Bible and see what the context is. Lucifer is not Satan. The serpent is not Satan.
 
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squint

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No one said Jesus is Satan. The correct understanding is satan (the adversary) is a part of all of us. Satan is not a person. I suggest you look for references to satan in the Bible and see what the context is. Lucifer is not Satan. The serpent is not Satan.

If there is no Satan as a separate entity, then Jesus spoke only to Himself AS Satan.

That is the conclusion of your math, no matter how you may try and deny it.
 
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KCDAD

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Are you gonna argue with Jesus? If he called himself the temptor... if he recognized that temptations come within each of us, who are we to disagree? He also called Simon Satan... does that mean Simon was Satan? Does that mean Simon was with Jesus in the desert?
 
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squint

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Are you gonna argue with Jesus? If he called himself the temptor... if he recognized that temptations come within each of us, who are we to disagree? He also called Simon Satan... does that mean Simon was Satan? Does that mean Simon was with Jesus in the desert?

Jesus was like us with one great exception.

No SIN.

I do not mistake my fellow man or Jesus as SATAN.

Satan "entered" Judas just as Satan entered Peter. This makes neither of them Satan.
 
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squint

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Satan entered Simon and made him say "You are the Christ, the Son of God"? Really? Why would that be so evil to say?

Without entry into the flesh of Peter, you also make Peter Satan, just as without a separate entity as Satan, you also make Jesus Satan.

Gods Word draws these things out into the open eh?

I guess when it says no one can say" Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit" the Bible is mistaken.

To say Jesus was speaking only to Himself as Satan will remain the speaking of the ignoble vessel in the man's flesh who speaks.

Words both true and false come from the heart. The words of lies are of the devil.
 
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Evergreen48

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So Jesus was speaking to Himself AS SATAN?

I believe that understanding is an utter atrocity and those who speak such things do not speak truth.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed,"

If saying Jesus was Satan isn't saying Jesus is cursed, I really don't know what is.

My how far understanding has fallen.

Allow me one line from an anonymous Arabic proverb, if you please:

"He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool. Shun him. " :wave:
 
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