What happened to those who believe in UR.

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StudentoftheWord

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That's excellent teaching SOTW, and I'll save that one.

I think I may be a bit think headed but what do these verses have to do with the Gehenna judgment? Jesus is talking to the multitudes..

Mat 5:21 `Ye heard that it was said to the ancients: Thou shalt not kill, and whoever may kill shall be in danger of the judgment;
Mat 5:22 but I--I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.


Mat 5:29 `But, if thy right eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.
Mat 5:30 `And, if thy right hand doth cause thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.

Jesus is talking about breaking the Law here. I just don't know how to connect it. I can understand Him speaking to the Pharisee's like this, but the common people?

(If you want to know more: www.ultimategrace.com)

I knew this was going to be the rebuttle. So I waited for it to be brought up. This one is easy. You are right, He is talking about the Law here.

First His audience needs to be established. Was he talking to the crowd, the pharisee's or was he talking to the disciples? From the audience, you will understand the context of what Jesus meant by Gehenna.

Matthew 5:1-2
Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, and he began to teach them saying....

Was he talking to the Pharisee? No, he was either talking to the crowds or his disciples or both. Since he was not talking to the Pharisee, I will make simple, Jesus was refering to the garbage pit outside Jerusalem called Gehenna. We still need to realize that at this time Gehenna was a garbage dump even if it had respresented the judgment coming to Israel. It was where they threw the dead bodies of those who broke the law and were stoned to death. So, now look at the context of what Jesus was talking about.

Matthew 5:21-22
"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of Gehenna.

Numbers 35
...murderer shall be put to death.

Matthew 5:27-30
"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into Gehenna.

Leviticus 20:10
" 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

What do they do with the bodies of criminals who broke the Law? They threw them into a physical Gehenna. KCDAD was correct concerning this usage of Gehenna but only when it came to Matthew 5.

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

Jesus was warning the disciples of the Pharisee in Matthew 10, they are the only ones who ever destroyed the soul and body in Gehenna. God does not do this.

Jeremiah 7:31
They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom (Gehenna), to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind.


So Jesus was not warning them of God who would destory their soul and body in Gehenna, since it is nothing that God commans, nor did it come into His Mind to do this.

We look at the context of Matthew 10, Jesus was warning the disciples of the Pharisee who would persue and kill them just like the they did the prophets and throw innocent people into the Gehenna. Simply stated. He was telling them that they will die, but the ones who are most dangerous are those who killed innocent people and threw them into the Fires of Gehenna because they did not follow God.

We look at Matthew 23, Jesus was talking to the Pharisee, and so when He said:

Matthew 23:32-33 Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers! "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape the judgment of Gehenna"

He was talking about the Judgement of Gehenna. What came out of Gehenna by the voices of the prophets of old, Josiah, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, David, Solomon and Hosea (to name a few) concerning the evil practices of the Hebrew people, and that was God was bringing from Heaven a Stone from Zion, and it would reject Israel, Judah, Jerusalem and the Temple that bore his name, and salvation will given to a foriegn people, those who babble, and the people who were not His people, would then be called Sons of God. Of course that foriegn people with babbling tongues who were not God's people, wre the Gentiles! Jesus was warning, upon that Generation, those whom He was talking to, that this judgment will be consumated. Sure enough it was, Jesus died for ALL mankind, and the Jews could not attain righteousness by the works, because a righteousness apart from works manifested. Israel would be cut off and the Gentiles grafted in.

So there is Gehenna, the garbage dump.
There is Gehenna, the practice of apostate Jews.
there is Gehenna, the judgment which cut the Hebrew people off leaving only a remnent saved by grace.
 
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mick24458

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Hades will be no more... The Greek myth will be no more... (you know of course, Hades was a person in Greek mythology, not a place.) I'm glad you realize we are not talking about hell, Sheol or The Valley of Hinnom.

My real problem lies with the idea that ..."getting rid of all that is negative and bad"... means people. I have a lot more faith in my creator than to think we are not exactly what was intended.
If people are chastised in the Lake of Fire then they are not "gotten rid of" but if they are destroyed then they are.
'whosover believes in Him will not perish" so what happens to those who don't believe: I assume they perish - What does this mean to URists? Judgement does fall on the "ungodly" and bad things will be gone. I must admit my understanding of this is in its infancy.:confused:
 
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mick24458

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So you want to know about death and hell and the second death, do you? Then read this document on this forum:

http://www.christianforums.com/t5670920-death-and-hell-are-losing-everyone.html

Thanks.

John,
GOOD NEWS, Inc. :thumbsup::amen::clap:
This topic can really get some strong debate happening but the strength of scripture seems to stand against eternal torture, it's the "perish" bit that gets me. Those who don't believe, they perish. If Christian UR is correct then all must come to belief after Christ's return, in the next age or ages to come. Is this the CUR stance?
Man! You guys have got my brain going. This is such an important issue as far as the "Good News" of the gospel is concerned. Everything that I have traditionally believed says "thrown into the eternal fires of Hell" but this does not seem to be what Scripture says, once you understand the difference between the words Hades & Gehenna. This is doctrine-shattering stuff!!!
 
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KCDAD

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So it is this fierce burning wrath of God that we should fear...

I have a healthy respect for my father here on Earth, I love him and have never feared him "losing it" and cutting me off, abandoning me or casting me into any lake of fire or hell or even a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth for eternity...

According to your interpretation ... my father is better (more merciful, more forgiving, more loving, more just) than Our Father.
 
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squint

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Even within UR there are debates about the nature and construct of eternal damnation.

Many in UR have imho, twisted the scriptures to a nearly unrecognizable position, in trying to place people into the Lake temporarily (not gonna happen) or to minimalize the effects of that "punishment" for people to some finite time.

Why they do this is no mystery. The devil in men will deny that is going to happen to DEVILS and they will instantly put PEOPLE in the Lake.

The facts of the matters are that "eternal wrath" and "eternal destruction" is the very HOPE of the Gospel for the putting away of the Anti-Christ spirits, and the permanent eradication of death, sin and evil.

Why then do URists try to temporalize this? Why do they try and put people, Gods offspring into that Lake? Why do they try to "correct" them in the Lake when no such presentations are made in scripture?

It's just more confusion from their camps, and some are even now re-writing the scriptures to suit some fanciful fairytale of their own making, making hell into something it's not.

The Lake IS for permanent eradication of the "things" prior mentioned, and those things WILL NOT be coming OUT, ever. This is our Hope and our Prayer for all mankind. Yet to blur these lines, or promote the salvation of the Anti-Christ spirit is just anther proof of the existence of the Anti-Christ spirit that is present in the flesh of all mankind, and URists first and foremost do not LIKE to touch that subject whatsoever!

All mankind can and will be saved according to the scriptures. Every eternal damnation scripture can also stand fully accepted IF it is understood FOR WHOM those things are FOR, and it is NOT your fellow man.

enjoy!

squint
 
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StudentoftheWord

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This topic can really get some strong debate happening but the strength of scripture seems to stand against eternal torture, it's the "perish" bit that gets me. Those who don't believe, they perish. If Christian UR is correct then all must come to belief after Christ's return, in the next age or ages to come. Is this the CUR stance?
Man! You guys have got my brain going. This is such an important issue as far as the "Good News" of the gospel is concerned. Everything that I have traditionally believed says "thrown into the eternal fires of Hell" but this does not seem to be what Scripture says, once you understand the difference between the words Hades & Gehenna. This is doctrine-shattering stuff!!!
If Christian UR is correct then all must come to belief after Christ's return, in the next age or ages to come. Is this the CUR stance?

That is why our hope is in the Resurrection as much as the Life. :)
 
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StudentoftheWord

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The Lake IS for permanent eradication of the "things" prior mentioned, and those things WILL NOT be coming OUT, ever. This is our Hope and our Prayer for all mankind. Yet to blur these lines, or promote the salvation of the Anti-Christ spirit is just anther proof of the existence of the Anti-Christ spirit that is present in the flesh of all mankind, and URists first and foremost do not LIKE to touch that subject whatsoever!

All mankind can and will be saved according to the scriptures. Every eternal damnation scripture can also stand fully accepted IF it is understood FOR WHOM those things are FOR, and it is NOT your fellow man.

enjoy!

squint

The Law of Sin and Death is not coming back! Amen!
 
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StudentoftheWord

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So it is this fierce burning wrath of God that we should fear...

I have a healthy respect for my father here on Earth, I love him and have never feared him "losing it" and cutting me off, abandoning me or casting me into any lake of fire or hell or even a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth for eternity...

According to your interpretation ... my father is better (more merciful, more forgiving, more loving, more just) than Our Father.

Who are you talking to?
 
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Tavita

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Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

Jesus was warning the disciples of the Pharisee in Matthew 10, they are the only ones who ever destroyed the soul and body in Gehenna. God does not do this.

Thanks for your post SOTW, it has helped to clarify things for me.

Above though, in Matthew 10:28, you have the word 'One' written to show that the One is God.. Capital letter. This is where we get the idea that the 'one' to fear is God. Using a capital denotes that the passage is speaking about or of God.

In my e-sword, most versions show this to mean God...

(ALT) "And stop fearing the ones killing the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but fear rather the One being able to destroy both {the} soul and {the} body in hell [Gr., gehenna]!

(ASV) And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

(HOT)

(KJV+) And2532 fear5399 not3361, (575) them which kill615 the3588 body,4983 but1161 are not3361 able1410 to kill615 the3588 soul:5590 but1161 rather3123 fear5399 him which is able1410 to destroy622 both2532 soul5590 and2532 body4983 in1722 hell.1067

(LITV) And you should not fear the ones killing the body, but not being able to kill the soul. But rather fear Him being able to destroy both soul and body in Hell.

(MKJV) And do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. But rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

(NAS77) "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

(NASB) "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

(NASB+) "Do not fear5399 those3588 who kill615 the body4983 but are unable3361, 1410 to kill615 the soul5590; but rather3123 fear5399 Him who is able1410 to destroy622 both2532 soul5590 and body4983 in hell1067.

(YLT) `And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.
It's only the ASV and KJV that show the lower case, but in the Parallel Greek New Testament the only one showing the high case is YLT..



It's only the ASV and KJV that don't have it capitalized. I also found this in the Greek Parallel New Testament, and it shows only the YLT using the capital...

Latin Vulgate
10:28 et nolite timere eos qui occidunt corpus animam autem non possunt occidere sed potius eum timete qui potest et animam et corpus perdere in gehennam




King James Version
10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.




American Standard Version
10:28 And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.




Bible in Basic English
10:28 And have no fear of those who put to death the body, but are not able to put to death the soul. But have fear of him who has power to give soul and body to destruction in hell.




Darby's English Translation
10:28 And be not afraid of those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul; but fear rather him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.




Douay Rheims
10:28 And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.




Noah Webster Bible
10:28 And fear not them who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.




Weymouth New Testament
10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul; but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.




World English Bible
10:28 Don`t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.




Young's Literal Translation
10:28 `And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.






How confusing is that? It's sad really, it makes study of the scriptures for the average unscholarly person very hard indeed.

 
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StudentoftheWord

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No it means the capitalized it because the translator thought it was talking about God.

According to Jeremiah 7, God throws nobody into the Fires of Gehenna. :) So I must conclude, capitlization of the word "One" or "Him" is an error.

The Greek word for 'them' and 'Him' is: ho which means this, that, these, etc.

So it actually can be translated also:
And you should not fear the ones killing the body, but not being able to kill the soul. But rather fear the ones being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

It also can be translated to:
And you should not fear Him killing the body, but not being able to kill the soul. But rather fear Him being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

It also can be translated to:
And you should not fear that which kills the body, but not being able to kill the soul. But rather fear that which being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

So when you read:

Jeremiah 7:31 They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom (Gehenna) to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.

Do you think Jesus was saying God was the one who was able to kill the body and soul in Gehenna?

Unless of course He was talking about the Judgment that came out Gehenna against the Jews. Then that is possible. Though that is not how people translate it. They think God actually throws people into the fires of Gehenna, when Jesus said that.

So I am open to both interpretations, but will reject the first interpretation if they meant God actually throws people into a valley of fire.
 
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StudentoftheWord

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Does it matter? you may respond if you desire to.

Yes it does matter. If you were replying to me, here is my reply.

According to your interpretation ... my father is better (more merciful, more forgiving, more loving, more just) than Our Father.

Such emotional appeals are such non-sense and have no basis in truth.

Jeremiah 7:29
Cut off your hair and throw it away; take up a lament on the barren heights, for the LORD has rejected and abandoned this generation that is under his wrath.

Leviticus 26:44
Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the LORD their God.

1 Chronicles 28:8-10
"So now I charge you in the sight of all Israel and of the assembly of the LORD, and in the hearing of our God: Be careful to follow all the commands of the LORD your God, that you may possess this good land and pass it on as an inheritance to your descendants forever. "And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.

Lamentations 3:30-33
Let him give his cheek to the smiter,let him be filled with reproach. For the Lord will not reject forever, for if He causes grief, then He will have compassion according to His abundant lovingkindness. For He does not afflict willingly or grieve the sons of men.

Proverbs 16:6
Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for; through the fear of the LORD a man avoids evil.
 
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KCDAD

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Yes it does matter. If you were replying to me, here is my reply.



Such emotional appeals are such non-sense and have no basis in truth.

Jeremiah 7:29
Cut off your hair and throw it away; take up a lament on the barren heights, for the LORD has rejected and abandoned this generation that is under his wrath.

Leviticus 26:44
Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the LORD their God.

1 Chronicles 28:8-10
"So now I charge you in the sight of all Israel and of the assembly of the LORD, and in the hearing of our God: Be careful to follow all the commands of the LORD your God, that you may possess this good land and pass it on as an inheritance to your descendants forever. "And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.

Lamentations 3:30-33
Let him give his cheek to the smiter,let him be filled with reproach. For the Lord will not reject forever, for if He causes grief, then He will have compassion according to His abundant lovingkindness. For He does not afflict willingly or grieve the sons of men.

Proverbs 16:6
Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for; through the fear of the LORD a man avoids evil.
I don't understand... why is this an emotional appeal. You have pictured god as a tyrant... a wrathful, eternally vengeful and destroying, sycophant. My sinful, Earthly father is more loving, more forgiving, and more just than that. How can that be?

Your god is willing to torture and punish me for eternity for nothing worse than being born. (that's original sin, BTW in case you didn't recognize it)
 
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StudentoftheWord

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I don't understand... why is this an emotional appeal. You have pictured god as a tyrant... a wrathful, eternally vengeful and destroying, sycophant. My sinful, Earthly father is more loving, more forgiving, and more just than that. How can that be?

No I haven't. That is all in your head and based on perception. Your rebuttle means nothing in reality. You think in terms of a human being, you let your imagination carry you away.

Hebrews 12:7-12
Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

You think discipline is terrifying? Do you fear, is corrective punishment? Well if you do, thent need to renew your mind. The Father is God is much better than your father, but you just are scared of things you don't understand. Did I say at any time that there was eternity of torture and punishment? No, you misunderstand and you are wrong in your reply to me.

Your god is willing to torture and punish me for eternity for nothing worse than being born. (that's original sin, BTW in case you didn't recognize it)

Your reply is hiliarious, especially since I am a Christian Universalist, and I know my God forgives all mankind. I, unlike you, however, I don't ignore the fact, that if we do evil, we will be punished. Your imagination is what thinks I believe that punishment perpetual. At not time did I say this, at no time did I come to this conclusion.

Maybe you should actually read what I write, and get your head out of your assumptions. Are you a Christian Universalist? If so, stop using emotional appeals and start actually paying attention. If not, your reply is non-sensical and you need to stop using emotoinal appeals and start actually paying attention.

You just demonstrate you do not know what Gehenna Judgment is. Gehenna Judgement is what saved all mankind, but although you believe all mankind is saved in Jesus Christ, you can't see it because to you, it just as a garbage dump. Without Gehenna, Israel would be apostate, living in sin and the Gentiles would be lost. With Gehenna, Israel sinned and were rejected as God's people so that all mankind would be accepted as God's people.
 
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Tavita

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No it means the capitalized it because the translator thought it was talking about God.

Yes, that's the conclusion I came to. Thanks so much for posting that scripture to bring my attention to it. You are a wealth of information.. :thumbsup:
 
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No I haven't. That is all in your head and based on perception. Your rebuttle means nothing in reality. You think in terms of a human being, you let your imagination carry you away.

Hebrews 12:7-12
Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

You think discipline is terrifying? Do you fear, is corrective punishment? Well if you do, thent need to renew your mind. The Father is God is much better than your father, but you just are scared of things you don't understand. Did I say at any time that there was eternity of torture and punishment? No, you misunderstand and you are wrong in your reply to me.



Your reply is hiliarious, especially since I am a Christian Universalist, and I know my God forgives all mankind. I, unlike you, however, I don't ignore the fact, that if we do evil, we will be punished. Your imagination is what thinks I believe that punishment perpetual. At not time did I say this, at no time did I come to this conclusion.

Maybe you should actually read what I write, and get your head out of your assumptions. Are you a Christian Universalist? If so, stop using emotional appeals and start actually paying attention. If not, your reply is non-sensical and you need to stop using emotoinal appeals and start actually paying attention.

You just demonstrate you do not know what Gehenna Judgment is. Gehenna Judgement is what saved all mankind, but although you believe all mankind is saved in Jesus Christ, you can't see it because to you, it just as a garbage dump. Without Gehenna, Israel would be apostate, living in sin and the Gentiles would be lost. With Gehenna, Israel sinned and were rejected as God's people so that all mankind would be accepted as God's people.
You think your father in heaven is going to wait 70 years to wait to discipline you? He must be awfully patient, as well as good at holding a grudge.
Discipline comes in this lifetime through the Holy Spirit... that is what prayer and meditation is for. You think life is just free reign for a few decades and then we pay the piper?
God's love is not about punishment but it is about joy and abundance and fulfillment. Our punishment is missing out on that while we pursue our selfish desires and feed our fears and insecurities. The Kingdom of God is not over here or there... it is not then or later... it is here and now! Don't miss it because you are thinking about the afterlife, the second coming or the second death and judgment. You are not going to get another chance to live your life.
 
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StudentoftheWord

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:scratch:
KCDAD said:
You think your father in heaven is going to wait 70 years to wait to discipline you? He must be awfully patient, as well as good at holding a grudge.
Discipline comes in this lifetime through the Holy Spirit... that is what prayer and meditation is for. You think life is just free reign for a few decades and then we pay the piper?
God's love is not about punishment but it is about joy and abundance and fulfillment. Our punishment is missing out on that while we pursue our selfish desires and feed our fears and insecurities. The Kingdom of God is not over here or there... it is not then or later... it is here and now! Don't miss it because you are thinking about the afterlife, the second coming or the second death and judgment. You are not going to get another chance to live your life.

I don't even know what you are replying to. Obviously it isn't me, because there are so many assumptions in that post, that it must be your own idea's you are arguing.

KCDAD said:
You think your father in heaven is going to wait 70 years to wait to discipline you? He must be awfully patient, as well as good at holding a grudge.

Did I say this? Nope, that is your assumption. This is strawman argument #1.

KCDAD said:
Discipline comes in this lifetime through the Holy Spirit... that is what prayer and meditation is for. You think life is just free reign for a few decades and then we pay the piper?

Classic fallacy of the many Questions. The utter non-sense you write. When will it corrispond to reality, actually addressing my proposition and not your presupposition?

KCDAD said:
God's love is not about punishment but it is about joy and abundance and fulfillment. Our punishment is missing out on that while we pursue our selfish desires and feed our fears and insecurities.

Where did I say God's love is about punishment? Haha. That is the second strawman argument you have created in order to make yourself look good.

KCDAD said:
Our punishment is missing out on that while we pursue our selfish desires and feed our fears and insecurities
.

Yep. The punishment is having no reward.

So far, you seem to be fighting your own battle against your own belief of what others believe instead of actually addressing what I believe.

KCDAD said:
The Kingdom of God is not over here or there... it is not then or later... it is here and now! Don't miss it because you are thinking about the afterlife, the second coming or the second death and judgment. You are not going to get another chance to live your life.

Again, who are you talking to? It isn't me, when did I ever tell a person they had a another chance to live their life? That is three strawman arguments, one many questions fallacy, and whole bunch of smelly assumptions that stink of self-righteousness. :o

Next time you want to argue, know what it is you are arguing. :sigh:

Craig
 
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StudentoftheWord

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Yes, that's the conclusion I came to. Thanks so much for posting that scripture to bring my attention to it. You are a wealth of information.. :thumbsup:
Your welcome! :D

One of the biggest things I try to do, is look at everything objectively.
 
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Tube Socks Dude

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I moved on from Christian Universalism to become a Christocentric pluralist. The metaphysical and philosophical ideas found in other world religions traditions helped supplement and fill in the gaps on topics where I felt Biblical Universalism was not explicit or clear enough. Then again, I admit I was basically forced into seeking a more “universal" explanation of the God/man relationship because I happen to be in a category of humanity which most Biblical Universalists wish to cast into some kind of post-mortem fire or outer darkness for a millennium or two. Christian Universalists will study for years to investigate the meaning of aiwnion, but most won’t dare seriously question the traditional Judeo-Christian interpretations of words like arsenokoitai and bdelugma. Finally, I was able to make peace with Biblical images of a wrathful Jehovah Father figure and Jesus the dreaded Judge who tells some to depart from Him. I now view Biblical terms like fear, wrath, fire and punishment as allegories, metaphors and symbols reflecting the larger universal attempt of mankind to understand the ongoing process of the One True Reality.

A word for seekers and those suffering, "You are in - never out."

TSD
 
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squint

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Then again, I admit I was basically forced into seeking a more “universal" explanation of the God/man relationship because I happen to be in a category of humanity which most Biblical Universalists wish to cast into some kind of post-mortem fire or outer darkness for a millennium or two.


I certainly relate to your frustration on that matter, and find their various positionings and postulations on these matters quite ridiculous and in many cases, even baldfaced absurdity. It's like banging your head against a wall. I mean temporal torture for perfection? Isn't this present life enough of that already?
Christian Universalists will study for years to investigate the meaning of aiwnion, but most won’t dare seriously question the traditional Judeo-Christian interpretations of words like arsenokoitai and bdelugma.


Please translate those terms, as I cannot cut and paste them into google.
Finally, I was able to make peace with Biblical images of a wrathful Jehovah Father figure and Jesus the dreaded Judge who tells some to depart from Him. I now view Biblical terms like fear, wrath, fire and punishment as allegories, metaphors and symbols reflecting the larger universal attempt of mankind to understand the ongoing process of the One True Reality.

A word for seekers and those suffering, "You are in - never out."

TSD

How did you resolve those terms and unto "whom?"

I do view the entire document as very deeply, even endlessly allegorically connected. Our temporal reality is the allegory and not the literal.

enjoy!

squint
 
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