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What happened to those who believe in UR.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by StudentoftheWord, Jul 26, 2007.

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  1. StudentoftheWord

    StudentoftheWord Steward of the Word

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    It is just a coincidence, because a few were upset or felt shunned by certain individuals who kept calling them, "non-Christian" and now, when we are finally recognized by Christian Forums as Christian, they are nowhere. So Christian Universalists, where are you? :D
     
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  2. hizlamb

    hizlamb Depends on my mood

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    I swear CF is just boggling my mind anymore...

    Darn near every link I click into has a new way of believing something else in scripture..with a new name..

    Whose gonna wake up tomorrow with a new belief concept and tag a name on it and collect people who agree with em...

    So much for the ONE doctrine Christ put forth and unity

    Insane
     
  3. Tavita

    Tavita beside quiet waters He restores my soul..

    +207
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    Yeah, that's what I thought, and I wondered where you went too.

    Well, I'm here...:wave:
     
  4. StudentoftheWord

    StudentoftheWord Steward of the Word

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    Christian Univeralism, has been around since the beginning of the church.

    It is the belief that Jesus indeed died for all mankind, that there is no perpetual torment in hell.
    In order to fulfill all righteousness, those who believe are spared condemnation with the earth, and those who do not believe are cast into the Lake of Fire, so that others may be included with the elect and that everything is reconciled and will be restored in Him, just all things were created in Him.

    So it is NOT a new way of believing something else in scripture, it is as some historians have noted, been what the original Church believed and was later (400 or so years later) denounced as a heresy by a particular school in a country which was influenced by the Emperor Cult. About that time, Christianity was legalized and all other religions banned, as long as they followed what the Emperor said Christianity was.

    Don't believe me? Do some research on it. :D
     
  5. John1and1

    John1and1 Guest

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    I have done my research, and so has HizLamb. You speak as though you have and yet you make errant statements

    Universalists should not be recognized as Christians. They do not recognize the entire bible as inspired of God nor to they accept Jesus is God, and there are many other inconsistancies regarding salvation.

    A christian, by ancient definition, is one who BELIEVES the word without changing it.

    Universalism has NOT been around since the beginning of the church. I would wager you cant even tell me when the church began.

    Universalist doctrine began with Origen, a gnostic teacher, and head of the school of philosophy in Alexandria Egypt, who added christianity to his teachings. He REWROTE portions of the bible in order to facillitate his universallist doctrine, and perverted doctrine until he was pronounced a heretic and his writings, heretical.

    Out of 5255 ancient manuscripts, 45 are what we call alexandrian, and 5210 make us the textus receptus. The 45 are responsible for the westcott hort translation in greek, westcott hort by the way neither believed that the scriptures are inerrant, and all this mess is responsible for the niv, which not so ironicly allows the universalist doctrine to be set forth.

    The 5210 manuscripts making up the textus receptus, and the King Jamers Version, EXCLUDE and ELIMINATE universalist doctrine.

    So one can be a universalist, believing pronounced heretics who made changes to the holy scriptures, and believing those who believe the bible contains errors, Or one can be a true believer, believing the 5210 UNCHANGED manuscripts over the 45 changed by pronounced heretics.

    Would you like to talk about universalist doctrine and how Origen rewrote holy scriptures to accomodate it?
     
  6. Tavita

    Tavita beside quiet waters He restores my soul..

    +207
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    I'm sorry, but you have really offended me by your remarks. I do believe the entire bible is inspired by God and I believe Jesus is God, not only that, He is my Lord and Savior. I have known Him personally for thirty years. A Christian is a person who has committed their lives to Jesus Christ, been washed in the blood of the Lamb and forgiven of their sin, in this lifetime, just like you have been. A Christian doesn't necessarily have to believe everything about the bible you or anyone else says they have to believe to be saved. That is a salvation by works theology and just as bad as any other church denomination that believes in works to be saved. But I would never have the audacity to generalize and say they were not christians.

    Shame on you for judging other Christians in this manner.

    Here is a short list of early church fathers who believed in all being saved, besides Origen.
    • Paul, the Apostle (never used the word "Hell" once) (1 Tim. 4:9-11)
    • John the Apostle (John 4:42)
    • The Didascalia (the Catechetical school of Alexandria)
    • Pantaenus, first head of catechetical school at Alexandria
    • Clement of Alexandria, second head of catechetical school at Alexandria
    • Origen, greatest scholar of the early church
    • Athenasius, Archbishop of Alexandria
    • Didymus
    • Ambrose, Bishop
    • Ephraim
    • Chrysostum
    • Gregory of Nyssa, Bishop
    • Gregory of Nazianzus, Bishop and President of the second Church council
    • Titus, Bishop of Bostra
    • Asterius, Bishop of Amasea
    • Cyril
    • Methodius, Bishop of Tyre
    • Eusibius, early church historian
    • Hillary, Bishop of Poictiers
    • Victorinus
    • Macrina, the younger
    • Erigena
    • Dionysius
    • Barsudaili, Abbott of Edessa
    • Diodore, Bishop of Tarsus and Jerusalem
    • Theodore of Mopsuestia
    • John Cassian
    • Maximus of Turin
    • Proclus, Bishop of Constantinoplus
    • Theodoret the Blessed, Bishop of Cyrrhus
    • Peter Chrysologus, Bishop of Ravenna
    • Theophylact, Archbishop of Achrida
     
  7. John1and1

    John1and1 Guest

    +0
    Your list there is very misleading and incorrect at best

    Personally if you are offended at the gospel im sorry but this isnt my problem. You also believe EVERYONE will be saved and this goes blatantly against the word of God. If you believe Jesus IS God then as a universalist you are in the minority.

    Tell me something. How many manuscripts make up the 'Alexandrian' style, and WHY are they called 'alexandrian'?

    Also do you realize Clement of alexandria was ALSO Origens teacher? Tell me please, the significance of the school they headed in Alexandria
     
  8. John1and1

    John1and1 Guest

    +0
    by the way... how many in your list were NOT universalists and you are mislbleing them? Then how many left on the list were pronounced heretics by the church and their doctrines heretical?
     
  9. StudentoftheWord

    StudentoftheWord Steward of the Word

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    Since you are not a Christian Universalist, this thread was not for you, but for those who complained that Christian Universalism was labelled non-Christian in the past, but now finally after persistance by some including myself, have found a change of heart by the managment to understand no man has a place of judgment over who is Christian or not, when they declare Jesus Christ, the only begotten of the Father, is their savior.
     
  10. StudentoftheWord

    StudentoftheWord Steward of the Word

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    You can argue it all you want John1and1, being pronounced a heretic 500 years after the fact, but being declared a heretic by a bunch of heretics 500 years later is not support for proving herectical doctrine.

    This is not the thread for your argument, take it up in your own titled thread and be prepared to be refuted.
     
  11. Tavita

    Tavita beside quiet waters He restores my soul..

    +207
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    So what if I'm in the minority, that means we must go by the majority vote, huh? The majority rules? That's as far from the Kingdom as you can get. And you also point out wrongly that I believe everyone WILL BE saved when the scriptures are clear that Jesus HAS ALREADY paid the price of redemption for the WHOLE WORLD. Even the Eastern Orthodox church believes this.

    Being saved has nothing to do with doctrine. When Jesus returns is He going to ask you your doctrinal position? Of course not, He's only interested in your heart. If you want to accuse the brethren then you are taking sides with the enemy. So mate, I've had enough of arguing over scripture, that's not what the Lord wants from us anyway.

    God bless you in your Christian walk with Him...
     
  12. John1and1

    John1and1 Guest

    +0
    Being saved certainly does have to do with doctrine, and if you dont believe this you truly are lost.

    How can you come to Christ if you choose to believe Buddah will get you there just as easily?

    How can one be saved if they do not hold to the doctirne that Jesus is God?

    Your statement here certainly shows your lack of respect for the word and doctrine, which is said to be able to save both 'us' and them that hear 'us'

    About your list too being so deceptive. You have yet to show John or paul were universalist

    You have also failed to answer the question of the relevence of the school clement and origen taught. What WAS the significance of that school?

    Also, why are the alexandrian manuscripts referred to as 'alexandrian'?

    Why was origen pronounced a heretic? Why was his teaching on universal salvation pronounced heretical?

    Why did he change the written word of God?

    What years did origen teach his own brand of christianity? Wht did every facet of the chruch but the alexandrian reject him during his life? Why was he not accepted at rome?
     
  13. StudentoftheWord

    StudentoftheWord Steward of the Word

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    Doesn't matter what you think, especially in this thread. This is not the place to make your points. Since you show so much disrespect, why should we respect your opinion? Be wise, not foolish.

    Make a new thread talking of your personal problems with Christian Universalism, I am just asking where they all went, there was over a couple dozen of us here at one time, but most felt shunned because of CF used the Nicene Creed as criteria to being a Christian. Now that criteria is removed, where are all the UR folks?

    By the way, the Nicene Creed does not pronounce Universal Salvation as heretical, so the fact remained even previous to this new rule change, most Trinitarian Christian Universalists (of which I am) were actually Christian by definition from the beginning.
     
  14. John1and1

    John1and1 Guest

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    It doesnt matter what the nicene creed pronounces, or any other creed of man.

    What matters is does our own personal creed stay within the boundries of scripture, and i can assure you that universalism does not.

    Scripture does not accept universalism, it is a heretical doctrine. Origen and his teacher Clement of Alexandria even saw fit to rewrite the word because of it, and we know Origen is pronounced a heretic and his doctrine debunked as well.


    As for a freefall invasion of false doctrines being allowed on this board, i am truly sorry as well as many members here are, and many recognize this as a HUGE mistake that will cost many souls.

    Universalism raises its head, it needs to be confronted. It raised its head here.

    So for all to see, i put these questions before you, so that ANY reader who is truly searching can see that you in fact have no answers that will not conflict with scripture or you yourself in your answers will be forced to cast great doubt on the origins of your doctrine.

    How can you come to Christ if you choose to believe Buddah will get you there just as easily?

    How can one be saved if they do not hold to the doctirne that Jesus is God?

    Your statement here certainly shows your lack of respect for the word and doctrine, which is said to be able to save both 'us' and them that hear 'us'

    About your list too being so deceptive. You have yet to show John or paul were universalist

    You have also failed to answer the question of the relevence of the school clement and origen taught. What WAS the significance of that school?

    Also, why are the alexandrian manuscripts referred to as 'alexandrian'?

    Why was origen pronounced a heretic? Why was his teaching on universal salvation pronounced heretical?

    Why did he change the written word of God?

    What years did origen teach his own brand of christianity? Wht did every facet of the chruch but the alexandrian reject him during his life? Why was he not accepted at rome?
     
  15. staveoffzombies

    staveoffzombies Senior Member

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    Universalist here as well.

    And to John, we don't believe that Buddha will get you to heaven like Christ will. Every Biblical Universalist I know believes it is faith in Christ which leads to salvation. And most believe hell exists in some form, only it is a place of punishment and correction, not an eternal torture chamber.

    Perhaps you have us confused with Unitarian Universalists?
     
  16. StudentoftheWord

    StudentoftheWord Steward of the Word

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    Yep the more John talks, the more apparent his foolishness.
     
  17. squint

    squint Well-Known Member

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    Anyone who has "walked" with The Word for any length of time should realize by now that it is a most complex assembly of writings. It has kept my rapt attention for some decades now, and I like to think that I know God in Jesus Christ much better today because of the "exposure" to His Word. Most "Christian Universalists" are well founded in both christian fundamentalism (which most still adhere to) AND they can "handle" the multitude of scriptures that state openly that Jesus IS an actual Saviour of the world, and not some miniscule portion thereof or a "potential Saviour" who just can't seem to get the job done.

    While I have to admit that within "Christian Universalism" there are many various views and "divisions" they as a group in general are the ONLY believers who actually are empowered to LOVE ALL of their fellow man. No other typical christian can say this, even less, live that LIFE.

    You cannot "love" a person out of "one side" of your mouth and then condemn them to burn alive eternally (or be eternally separated or annihilated or tortured) for not believing "like you."

    Most will cry foul "because" of the many scriptures that DO IN FACT promote the eternal torture of "certain entities." And many within "Christian Universalism" have seen that in order to fulfill "that side" of the scriptures, that SATAN AND HIS MESSENGERS must be thrown under the proverbial "scriptural bus" in order to serve that side of the ledger of the Word justice. And this can be done quite easily BECAUSE Satan and his messengers were clearly disclosed by The Living Word, Jesus, to be IN mankind. And no, there is not one single scripture that grants mercy, love or salvation specifically to the devil and his messengers.

    Love your fellow man.

    Sacrifice "the scape GOATS."

    Fast Track to understanding ALL the scriptures.

    enjoy!

    squint
     
  18. Katmando

    Katmando Regular Member

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    Hi SOTW,

    I check in from time to time. But have not felt the disre to post lately.

    TGhat is great to hear CF has dropped the man made creeds.

    Katmando
     
  19. goodnewsinc

    goodnewsinc Senior Member Supporter

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    We live without fear and torment and we rejoice a lot! Happy birthday to you!

    John,
    GOOD NEWS, Inc. :kiss::hug::clap:
     
  20. Tube Socks Dude

    Tube Socks Dude Senior Member

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    χαίρετε, John1and1,

    Here is a site which contains the Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus, Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus and the Alexandrian.

    http://www.greeknewtestament.com/index.htm

    Please be so kind as to give me specific verses where the Alexandrian differs from the Textus Receptus so that I might see it for myself.

    ευχαριστώ,

    TSD


     
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