What Happened To People In The Old Testament When They Died?

[JohnRabbit]

you made your opinion clear.
i say your opinion is flawed.



i suggest that you read Ecc3:20-21.
the author shows the difference between the flesh rotting body in the grave, and the spirit/soul that returns to God

also, visit this site...
The Consciousness of the Soul After Death | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site


no one did what Christ did...ascended to heaven as He did. Bodily.
not even David

they are in heaven now...their flesh is in the grave, but the rest of them is not.

how do you reconcile the scriptures i showed/referred to....
you did not even address them at all.




and who does He bring with Him? the dead

so, He's in heaven, He leaves heaven, and brings with Him the dead in Christ

ummm. no....that flesh is dust...that flesh never rises.
it's the spiritual/heavenly body that leaves heaven with Christ, and rises here.
That's the resurrection


they "rise" because they come from heaven with Christ at His Coming,
and are "raised" here on earth
then after they are raised, the alive are gathered together with them

caught up is an english translational error = seized, (up is just not there)
in the clouds is figurative = mass multitudes (Paul's Heb12:1 same...comp. the clouds of heaven/cometh WITH clouds)
in the air = synonym for pneuma (spirit), (as Paul explained in 1Cor15)

all the righteous in Christ are seized together,
whether we be dead in the flesh or alive in the flesh at His Coming,
into a great multitude,
in the "mystery" changed heavenly/spiritual incorruptible body that all in heaven have now,
but it's all right here on earth....as the other scriptures about the gathering show.

go to the greek


are the angels in heaven today? yes
are the angels coming from heaven with Him when He leaves heaven? yes

is the same said of the dead in 1Thes4? yes

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

can we show that men become angels? yes

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.


the 4 winds do not represent the sky
they are mentioned multiple times in scripture.

Mar13:29 goes with Mat24:31, and we see the gathering of elect is from both heaven and earth,
that's the same as 1Thes4

not in the sky...on earth.
He lands first, raises the dead in Christ, and then makes a way to Him
see Zec14

no contradictons allowed

see the greek definitions for the words i outlined in 1Thes4:17 and then compare to Zec14



[/COLOR]No i did not


i have no doubt that the patriarchs accept Christ NOW...
after all, Christ went somewhere after His crucifixion/before His resurrection,
and many believed...

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

so, what happened to "the spirits" that heard His preaching in "prison"?

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

plus Christ uses Abraham in His teaching with regards to Lazarus and the rich man (both conscious after death)

no one has received eternal life yet...
but they are still in heaven, in incorruptible spiritual/heavenly bodies, awaiting the Resurrection

it is with those heavenly/spiritual/breath of life from God bodies that they will be "raised" in, not flesh...
and those of us alive at that time, still in flesh, will be changed to be like them, incorruptible....
and at that point, we who are gathered to Christ shall be IMMMORTAL as well as incorruptible
.


that actually proves my point Bro.
we shall all be changed to be like those he was just describing before that...the quickened dead
no more flesh at His Coming...ALL are changed

but anyway, remember the question in 1Cor15:35?
with what body do they come



see my answer above...
He comes from heaven with the dead in Christ,which is what 1Thes4 is all about
and men can become angels as Rev19/22 teach

when you continue reading, into Heb12:1, you realize that they (of 11:39-40) are our "cloud of witnesses"
they are the "cloud" that comes with Christ, the clouds of heaven/behold He cometh with clouds



there's lots of room for YOU to respond.
i have provided umpteen scriptures that show my position as biblical.
it might seem contradictory, sleep/know nothing vs conscious doing things in actual example,
until you realize the point of view each example is given in

if it's about us contacting the dead, then it's the grave/know nothing
it is speaking of their flesh and blood body that has died and turned to dust

if it is showing consciousness after death as many scriptures do, as I have pointed out to you
then it is from the spiritual side of things, and not the earthly.

the spirit that is in man goes to heaven, however, the spirit that is in the man is not the man.

the spirit that is in man is not alive.

man is physical and not spirit!

Leviticus 17:11-14(NKJV)
11For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’
12Therefore I said to the children of Israel, ‘No one among you shall eat blood, nor shall any stranger who dwells among you eat blood.’
13“Whatever man of the children of Israel, or of the strangers who dwell among you, who hunts and catches any animal or bird that may be eaten, he shall pour out its blood and cover it with dust;
14for it is the life of all flesh. Its blood sustains its life. Therefore I said to the children of Israel, ‘You shall not eat the blood of any flesh, for the life of all flesh is its blood. Whoever eats it shall be cut off.’

the life of all flesh is in the blood (physical).

yes, there is a spirit in man (1cor 2:11), but there is no life in that spirit.

the life of man is in his blood.

so, you can spin it anyway you want, but the life of all flesh is in the blood.

no blood, no life, period.

 

[JohnRabbit]

That is the second death not the first.

thanks for your two cents but you've missed the point!

it helps to read the post flow before you jump in!

 

[zeke37]

the spirit that is in man goes to heaven, however, the spirit that is in the man is not the man.

the spirit that is in man is not alive.

man is physical and not spirit!

man is both....see 1Cor15

Leviticus 17:11-14(NKJV)
11For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’
12Therefore I said to the children of Israel, ‘No one among you shall eat blood, nor shall any stranger who dwells among you eat blood.’
13“Whatever man of the children of Israel, or of the strangers who dwell among you, who hunts and catches any animal or bird that may be eaten, he shall pour out its blood and cover it with dust;
14for it is the life of all flesh. Its blood sustains its life. Therefore I said to the children of Israel, ‘You shall not eat the blood of any flesh, for the life of all flesh is its blood. Whoever eats it shall be cut off.’

the life of all flesh is in the blood (physical).

yes, there is a spirit in man (1cor 2:11), but there is no life in that spirit.

the life of man is in his blood.

so, you can spin it anyway you want, but the life of all flesh is in the blood.

no blood, no life, period.

that's relevant to the flesh body only, but we are more than that...
did you even bother to explore the scriptures or website i suggested,
or is this a waste of time?

i have considered everything you have said and posted....
and since i don't want any contradictions, i MUST view things the way I do...

sleep is figurative,
the dead flesh body in the literal grave, knows nothing
but the rest of us, that which exists after death, goes back to God and is conscious

 

[JohnRabbit]

man is both....see 1Cor15

i've read 1cor 15 and i don't see where it says man is both!

that's relevant to the flesh body only, but we are more than that...
did you even bother to explore the scriptures or website i suggested,
or is this a waste of time?

i have considered everything you have said and posted....
and since i don't want any contradictions, i MUST view things the way I do...

sleep is figurative,
the dead flesh body in the literal grave, knows nothing
but the rest of us, that which exists after death, goes back to God and is conscious

i've read the article on the website and i see now how you believe the way that you do.

it's unfortunate, in my opinion, that you believe such.

to me, to believe what is written in "The Consciousness of the Soul After Death" is to believe satan and to rewrite the language that we use.

i say that for this reason. if we look back at the events of the garden of eden we see that it is the devil that first told man that he "will not die". and man has believed that lie ever since.

again let's go to the "video tape":

God said:

Genesis 2:17(NKJV)
17but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

and of course satan said:

Genesis 3:4(NKJV)
4Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.

quite simple to me, One says you will die and another says you won't die.

now here's an excerpt from "The Consciousness of the Soul After Death":

"Since the soul of man never dies..."

however, this don't mean nothing because "to die" has whatever meaning to whomever is saying it.

so when words mean whatever we want, we can make any argument we want!

i'm simple minded, in that, i think the words we speak actually represent what we say they are:


die1    [dahy] (from dictionary.com)
verb (used without object), died, dy·ing.
1.
to cease to live; undergo the complete and permanent cessation of all vital functions; become dead.
2.
(of something inanimate) to cease to exist: The laughter died on his lips.
3.
to lose force, strength, or active qualities: Superstitions die slowly.
4.
to cease to function; stop: The motor died.
5.
to be no longer subject; become indifferent: to die to worldly matters.


now, for some reason, i'm dumb enough to go along with the definition of the word to mean "cessation of life".

however, after talking with you, i find that the word doesn't mean that at all, but in fact, means exactly what the serpent said in gen 3:4!

it just blows my mind!

of man God says:

Genesis 2:7(NKJV)
7And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being (soul).

Genesis 3:19(NKJV)
19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken;

God says He took dust from the ground and created man, making man physical (subject to death), which is different from how He created the angels from spirit (heb 1:14)!

the bible says "man became a living soul" not that "man has a living soul"

man is a soul, and that's what the bible says (gen 2:7)!

so, when someone tells me that "the soul of man never dies",

and again:

"As G. Campbell Morgan says: “The body was dead. The man was not dead. No man is ever dead when his body lies dead!” The soul of man will never enter into a state of non-existence nor unconsciousness." (Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die")


i notice that contradicts what ezek 18:4 says.


Ezekiel 18:4(NKJV)
4 “Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.

yet your "guy" says soul never dies!

again from "The Consciousness of the Soul After Death":

"The death of the body is the gateway into a fuller and larger life into which the soul(ezk 18:4) passes."

don't believe the hype! do not go for the "banana in the tailpipe"!

believe the bible! believe God!

 

[JohnRabbit]

man is both....see 1Cor15



that's relevant to the flesh body only, but we are more than that...
did you even bother to explore the scriptures or website i suggested,
or is this a waste of time?

i have considered everything you have said and posted....
and since i don't want any contradictions, i MUST view things the way I do...

sleep is figurative,
the dead flesh body in the literal grave, knows nothing
but the rest of us, that which exists after death, goes back to God and is conscious

ok, like i said, if one wants to believe satan then that's on that person.

as stated in the online article "The Consciousness of the Soul After Death":

"Every human being enters the world possessed with endless existence...."

"Since the soul of man never dies, and the soul is as much a part of man as is his body, then we may say that the dead are alive."

the "dead are alive"? are you kidding me? can anyone say "oxymoron"!

anywho, both of these statements contradict what God says:

Genesis 3:22(NKJV)
22Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

why would God say such a thing? didn't He create man with an endless existences? and if so why would He say what He did in gen 3:22?

to me, it would make God look absent-minded!



and then there's the blble's likening death to sleep.

again from the online article"The Consciousness of the Soul After Death":

"Death to our Lord was never anything more than sleep. It is a figure of speech that the Bible applies, for there is never a pause in our consciousness. It was the body of Lazarus that was dead. It was his body that Martha said “stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.” When Jesus said plainly that Lazarus was dead, He could mean only his body, for when He added: “I go, that I may awake Him out of sleep,” He did this by raising the body of Lazarus from death and the grave. We read in verse forty-four: “And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with grave clothes.” The part of Lazarus that was dead was that part of him that was bound “hand and foot, and his face.”

if there is never a pause in consciousness, then that is immortality, life everlasting, which puts us back to gen 3:4, believing satan!

maybe it would help if we actually knew what the word "sleep" means:


sleep   [sleep] (dictionary.com) verb, slept, sleep·ing, noun
verb (used without object)
1.
to take the rest afforded by a suspension of voluntary bodily functions and the natural suspension, complete or partial, of consciousness; cease being awake.
2.
Botany . to assume, especially at night, a state similar to the sleep of animals, marked by closing of petals, leaves, etc.
3.
to be dormant, quiescent, or inactive, as faculties.
4.
to be careless or unalert; allow one's alertness, vigilance, or attentiveness to lie dormant: While England slept, Germany prepared for war.
5.
to lie in death: They are sleeping in their tombs.


oh, i see now.

yes, sleep is used figuratively as the bible likens death to sleep because when we sleep we go into an unconscious state. makes sense to me.

the online article said "Death to our Lord was never anything more than sleep".

again, let's go to the "video tape":

John 11:11-14(NKJV)
11These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”
12Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.”
13However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
14Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.

Jesus said plainly that lazarus was dead! Jesus knew what He was talking about!

that seems like more that sleep to me!

so again, i'm not going for the "banana in the tailpipe!

 

[ptomwebster]

thanks for your two cents but you've missed the point!

it helps to read the post flow before you jump in!

JR, as before you have know idea what you are talking about in any of your posts.

 

[JohnRabbit]

JR, as before you have know idea what you are talking about in any of your posts.

thanks for your vote of confidence?

 

[Sav3dbygrac3]

The Bible just doesnt have much to say about the intermediate state. You can make a strong argument for sleep and you can make a strong argument against it. I guess, if our Lord doesnt come first, we will all find out which is true eventually. The Bible does put emphasis on the resurrection though and not on the intermediate state, so I think that is what our focus should be on.

 

[Lysimachus]

I'm not persuaded by the SDA viewpoint on this subject
sorry.

Don't ignore the arguments in the link. Pay attention to the scriptural proof I provided.

Thus far, your view of "bringing souls" down from heaven to join their bodies, and then go right back up, makes as much sense as believing that the moon is made up of cheese.

 

[Lysimachus]

Do you want to know why we feel so concerned about your belief Zeke, concerning the Immortality of the Soul?

I'll tell you why.

Because the belief of the doctrine of the Immortality of the Soul is Satan's last-end-time deception to deceive the masses--and if possible, the very elect.

It is the door to spiritualism. To give up this doctrine is to place a shield around yourself in preventing yourself from Satan's last deception that will tell the lie to the world that the dead go on living--and he will cause his demons to impersonate loved ones who have come down from heaven in spirit form, and they will tell them that they are their loved ones and will tell them to worship the Antichrist. This deception will be beyond monumental proportions--and this is why we are appealing to you to give up this doctrine--because it is the final and last great deception that will envelop the globe and lead millions to perdition. Satan will use this false doctrine to HARNESS his deception--for he knows that to NOT believe it will not allow souls to pay heed to his demons, for they will then know that they can only be spirits of devils, not loved ones who have gone to heaven.

I invite you to read the following article which provides a sound and Biblical defense of why the doctrine of the "Immortality of the Soul" is one of the most deceptive doctrines of Devils:

The Immortal Soul Doctrine is The Devil's Door to Spiritualism

On the surface, the doctrine seems as "Christian" as the Pope being Catholic and the Rabbi Jewish. "Our dearly beloved Brenda 'went home to be with the Lord,'" the minister informs his tearful congregation at Brenda Webb's funeral. "Her suffering is over. She's with God now." Who dare doubt such a conclusion? Brenda Webb was a firm believer in Jesus Christ. Of course she went heaven, right?

Let's take a closer look.

But first, another scene. It's been a month since Brenda's lifeless body was lowered six feet under. But for the flickering of a few eerie candles, the room is pitch dark. Madam Sophia - a psychic medium claiming an ability to contact the deceased - sits comfortably on a black sofa surrounded by a handful of bereaved relatives who weren't churchgoers. The thick smell of incense fills the air. High above the creepy-looking house, the moon shines full. A lone dog howls in the distance. "Whom shall I bring up for you?" Madam Sophia quietly inquires. "Brenda Webb," responds Ralph nervously, "She died recently, and we have some questions to ask her." Suddenly, a ghost appears in their midst. "Hello Ralph," says the spirit, "what do you want to know?" A lengthy conversation ensues between a small group of amazed relatives and a glowing entity from The Other Side who looks like Brenda Webb, talks like Brenda Webb, and acts exactly like Brenda Webb.

Sound far-fetched? Actually, it isn't, for similar occurrences are increasingly common. Now notice carefully. In spite of their many differences of belief, there is one fundamental idea that both Brenda Webb's pastor and Madam Sophia hold in common. Both believe that when a person dies, they're not really dead. The "soul" soars on, somewhere...

This belief is belief in an immortal soul. Most human beings across planet Earth accept this idea, including most members of the world's largest religions, which not only includes Roman Catholic, Protestant and Muslim, but Hindu, Buddhist, Pagan, Wiccan and Spiritualist. While these religious persuasions differ markedly in their understanding of where souls go on the day of death, they all believe that every person has an "immortal soul" that goes somewhere after one's physical body disintegrates to dirt.

Put your hand over your pacemaker (if you have one), and get ready for a shock. This doctrine was actually the Devil's first lie that duped Eve in the Garden of Eden. I call it, The Devil's Door to Spiritualism.

"Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat," declared Almighty God to Adam shortly after his creation, "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die" (Genesis 2:16,17). Notice carefully the last four words, "you shall surely die." The Lord didn't tell Adam that if he ate the forbidden fruit "only your body will die," but rather, "you shall surely die"-meaning his entire person. God added the word, "surely," for extra emphasis. His warning was clear. If Adam or Eve ate from the wrong tree, that was it. They would "surely die." The word "die" means that they would be dead, not alive somewhere else.

Then came the snake. What did he say? A few verses later, the Bible reports:

• "Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil"" (Genesis 3:4).

Did you catch that? It was "the serpent" that first snickered, "You will not surely die," in direct contrast to God's Word. Again, the Lord said, "you will surely die." The serpent countered, "No, you won't." Who told the truth, God or the Devil? Sadly, Eve believed the snake and ate the fruit. Then she offered it to Adam, and he ate too (see Gen. 3:6). The result was sin, pain, and death for all humanity. Ultimately, that tiny act led to the death of Jesus Christ to fix the problem.

Sin is serious.

We should always believe what God says.

After Adam and Eve sinned, God reiterated His "You will surely die" message to the guilty pair. Notice carefully:

• Then to Adam He said..."In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken, for dust you are, and to dust you shall return" (Genesis 3:17,19).

Once again God didn't tell Adam that merely his physical body would revert to dust, but Adam himself. "For dust you are," the Lord clarified, "and to dust you shall return." The word "you" takes in Adam's entire existence. In Genesis 2:7, the Bible says that Adam was formed from dust combined with "the breath of life." This "breath of life" was not an eerie out-of-body intelligence, but rather a spark of life that God placed into all creation, including animals (see Gen. 7:21,22 and Ps. 104:29,30). It was this combination of dust plus breath that - together - made Adam "a living soul" (Gen. 2:7, KJV). At death (which is the result of sin), "the breath of life," also called "the spirit" that now animates man, simply "returns to God who gave it" (Eccl. 12:7). But human consciousness doesn't continue. It ceases (see Psalm 146:4, KJV). That's what God said.

The Bible is crystal clear that fallen man is not immortal. God "alone has immortality" (1 Tim. 6:16, NKJV, emphasis added). Fallen man must "seek for glory, honor, and immortality" (Romans 2:7, emphasis added). Only on Resurrection Day will saints "put on immortality" (1 Cor. 15:53). The Bible teaching is not the instant soaring of immortal souls into outer space after the physical body is pronounced dead; but actual death, burial, and future resurrection.

Now here's the scary part. If Christians believe that their deceased loved ones aren't really dead, but are alive somewhere, then this makes them dangerously vulnerable to being deceived by demons impersonating their dead relatives. In other words, if Brenda Webb really did go to heaven, then why couldn't her ghost return at Madam Sophia's beckoning to communicate with the living? Why not? The biblical answer is not that she wouldn't, but that she can't. "The living know that they will die" (Eccl. 9:5), wrote Solomon, "But the dead know nothing." Nothing. That's why communication with the dead is impossible. "The dead...go down into silence" (see Ps. 115:17), dittoed David. They wait for "the resurrection at the last day" (see John 11:24 and John 5:28,29).

Wait a minute! you might be thinking. What about New Testament passages like "absent from the body" (2 Cor. 5:8), the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16), and Jesus Christ's promise to the dying thief that he would join Him in Paradise (Luke 23:43)? Don't they teach that believers go to heaven at the moment of death?

No, they don't. Briefly, when you compare 2 Cor. 5:8 with verse 4, and then with 1 Cor. 15:51-55, it becomes very clear that Paul's "absent from the body" statement meant that believers will be "present with the Lord" on Resurrection Day, not before (compare also with 1 Thess. 4:17). The story of the rich man and Lazarus was "a parable" (compare Luke 16:19 with Luke 19:11, 12), not an actual account, for how else can you explain Lazarus ascending into "Abraham's bosom"? Finally, if you remove the punctuation from Luke 23:43, which was added hundreds of years after the New Testament was written, then Christ's actual promise to the thief on the cross would be, "Truly I say to you today [right now] you will be [in the future] with Me in Paradise." We know this is what Jesus meant because He didn't go to Paradise that day, but into Joseph's new tomb (see Luke 23:52,53). After rising from the dead, Christ told Mary, "I have not yet ascended to My Father" (John 20:17). Thus Jesus Himself did not go to heaven until after His resurrection.

"A lie can travel half-way around the world before truth puts its boots on," wrote the witty Mark Twain. According to the Bible, the "immortal soul" doctrine is one of those lies. Yes, it's popular; and yes, millions believe it; but the fact is that this doctrine was the first lie uttered to humanity by a serpent in the Garden of Eden. Unfortunately, Eve believed it, and so do most people today, including psychic mediums like Madam Sophia, and even Christian pastors.

The Bible sounds the warning that "the great dragon, the serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan...deceives the whole world" (Rev. 12:9, emphasis added).

Many ancient medieval churches still standing in England have one special door built into their north side called "The Devil's Door." Reasons vary, but one thing's for sure. If you believe in the "immortal soul" doctrine, such a belief can easily become The Devil's Door into Spiritualism and to being duped by Lucifer's legions impersonating dead people (read Deut. 18:11, Job 7:9,10, and Rev. 16:14).

My advice is: let's believe what God Almighty told Adam about sin and death.

Let's shut The Devil's Door.​

Thus, as we have seen from above, the doctrine of the Immortality of the Soul is a doctrine of Devils. It is the Beast's last design upon men to deceive, if possible, the very elect.

This is why it is so crucial for Christians to give it up.

Because it is the door to spiritualism. It is the door to mystical occult delusion. It is the essence of all witchcraft and spiritualism in the world.

Our invitation to you, therefore is, give up this doctrine. Lay it aside, and the Lord will bless you for doing so.

God bless.

 

[zeke37]

Jonhrabbit

Revelation 5, 6, 12, 19 and 22 shows us that the dead are concious

When Christ was in the grave, where did He go and what did He do?

 

[zeke37]

Don't ignore the arguments in the link. Pay attention to the scriptural proof I provided.

Thus far, your view of "bringing souls" down from heaven to join their bodies, and then go right back up, makes as much sense as believing that the moon is made up of cheese.

Using my phone cause my comp is fried
Answers are limited


1thes4 shows that God wil bring with Him those that sleep in Christ
Christ comes from heaven
They come with Him
They are raised here, in the same spiritual type body that they exist in heaven with
Then we who remain are changed and gathered together with them

No one goes back to heaven.

I never said they did
Nor do I think they join their flesh bodies anyway
Please do not mis quote me or imply things that I don't imply

The dead's consciousness in heaven prior to the 2nd Coming is clearly shown in Rev 5 6 12 19 22

 

[zeke37]

Do you want to know why we feel so concerned about your belief Zeke, concerning the Immortality of the Soul?

I'll tell you why.

Because the belief of the doctrine of the Immortality of the Soul is Satan's last-end-time deception to deceive the masses--and if possible, the very elect.

It is the door to spiritualism. To give up this doctrine is to place a shield around yourself in preventing yourself from Satan's last deception that will tell the lie to the world that the dead go on living--and he will cause his demons to impersonate loved ones who have come down from heaven in spirit form, and they will tell them that they are their loved ones and will tell them to worship the Antichrist. This deception will be beyond monumental proportions--and this is why we are appealing to you to give up this doctrine--because it is the final and last great deception that will envelop the globe and lead millions to perdition. Satan will use this false doctrine to HARNESS his deception--for he knows that to NOT believe it will not allow souls to pay heed to his demons, for they will then know that they can only be spirits of devils, not loved ones who have gone to heaven.

I invite you to read the following article which provides a sound and Biblical defense of why the doctrine of the "Immortality of the Soul" is one of the most deceptive doctrines of Devils:

The Immortal Soul Doctrine is The Devil's Door to Spiritualism

On the surface, the doctrine seems as "Christian" as the Pope being Catholic and the Rabbi Jewish. "Our dearly beloved Brenda 'went home to be with the Lord,'" the minister informs his tearful congregation at Brenda Webb's funeral. "Her suffering is over. She's with God now." Who dare doubt such a conclusion? Brenda Webb was a firm believer in Jesus Christ. Of course she went heaven, right?

Let's take a closer look.

But first, another scene. It's been a month since Brenda's lifeless body was lowered six feet under. But for the flickering of a few eerie candles, the room is pitch dark. Madam Sophia - a psychic medium claiming an ability to contact the deceased - sits comfortably on a black sofa surrounded by a handful of bereaved relatives who weren't churchgoers. The thick smell of incense fills the air. High above the creepy-looking house, the moon shines full. A lone dog howls in the distance. "Whom shall I bring up for you?" Madam Sophia quietly inquires. "Brenda Webb," responds Ralph nervously, "She died recently, and we have some questions to ask her." Suddenly, a ghost appears in their midst. "Hello Ralph," says the spirit, "what do you want to know?" A lengthy conversation ensues between a small group of amazed relatives and a glowing entity from The Other Side who looks like Brenda Webb, talks like Brenda Webb, and acts exactly like Brenda Webb.

Sound far-fetched? Actually, it isn't, for similar occurrences are increasingly common. Now notice carefully. In spite of their many differences of belief, there is one fundamental idea that both Brenda Webb's pastor and Madam Sophia hold in common. Both believe that when a person dies, they're not really dead. The "soul" soars on, somewhere...

This belief is belief in an immortal soul. Most human beings across planet Earth accept this idea, including most members of the world's largest religions, which not only includes Roman Catholic, Protestant and Muslim, but Hindu, Buddhist, Pagan, Wiccan and Spiritualist. While these religious persuasions differ markedly in their understanding of where souls go on the day of death, they all believe that every person has an "immortal soul" that goes somewhere after one's physical body disintegrates to dirt.

Put your hand over your pacemaker (if you have one), and get ready for a shock. This doctrine was actually the Devil's first lie that duped Eve in the Garden of Eden. I call it, The Devil's Door to Spiritualism.

"Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat," declared Almighty God to Adam shortly after his creation, "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die" (Genesis 2:16,17). Notice carefully the last four words, "you shall surely die." The Lord didn't tell Adam that if he ate the forbidden fruit "only your body will die," but rather, "you shall surely die"-meaning his entire person. God added the word, "surely," for extra emphasis. His warning was clear. If Adam or Eve ate from the wrong tree, that was it. They would "surely die." The word "die" means that they would be dead, not alive somewhere else.

Then came the snake. What did he say? A few verses later, the Bible reports:

• "Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil"" (Genesis 3:4).

Did you catch that? It was "the serpent" that first snickered, "You will not surely die," in direct contrast to God's Word. Again, the Lord said, "you will surely die." The serpent countered, "No, you won't." Who told the truth, God or the Devil? Sadly, Eve believed the snake and ate the fruit. Then she offered it to Adam, and he ate too (see Gen. 3:6). The result was sin, pain, and death for all humanity. Ultimately, that tiny act led to the death of Jesus Christ to fix the problem.

Sin is serious.

We should always believe what God says.

After Adam and Eve sinned, God reiterated His "You will surely die" message to the guilty pair. Notice carefully:

• Then to Adam He said..."In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken, for dust you are, and to dust you shall return" (Genesis 3:17,19).

Once again God didn't tell Adam that merely his physical body would revert to dust, but Adam himself. "For dust you are," the Lord clarified, "and to dust you shall return." The word "you" takes in Adam's entire existence. In Genesis 2:7, the Bible says that Adam was formed from dust combined with "the breath of life." This "breath of life" was not an eerie out-of-body intelligence, but rather a spark of life that God placed into all creation, including animals (see Gen. 7:21,22 and Ps. 104:29,30). It was this combination of dust plus breath that - together - made Adam "a living soul" (Gen. 2:7, KJV). At death (which is the result of sin), "the breath of life," also called "the spirit" that now animates man, simply "returns to God who gave it" (Eccl. 12:7). But human consciousness doesn't continue. It ceases (see Psalm 146:4, KJV). That's what God said.

The Bible is crystal clear that fallen man is not immortal. God "alone has immortality" (1 Tim. 6:16, NKJV, emphasis added). Fallen man must "seek for glory, honor, and immortality" (Romans 2:7, emphasis added). Only on Resurrection Day will saints "put on immortality" (1 Cor. 15:53). The Bible teaching is not the instant soaring of immortal souls into outer space after the physical body is pronounced dead; but actual death, burial, and future resurrection.

Now here's the scary part. If Christians believe that their deceased loved ones aren't really dead, but are alive somewhere, then this makes them dangerously vulnerable to being deceived by demons impersonating their dead relatives. In other words, if Brenda Webb really did go to heaven, then why couldn't her ghost return at Madam Sophia's beckoning to communicate with the living? Why not? The biblical answer is not that she wouldn't, but that she can't. "The living know that they will die" (Eccl. 9:5), wrote Solomon, "But the dead know nothing." Nothing. That's why communication with the dead is impossible. "The dead...go down into silence" (see Ps. 115:17), dittoed David. They wait for "the resurrection at the last day" (see John 11:24 and John 5:28,29).

Wait a minute! you might be thinking. What about New Testament passages like "absent from the body" (2 Cor. 5:8), the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16), and Jesus Christ's promise to the dying thief that he would join Him in Paradise (Luke 23:43)? Don't they teach that believers go to heaven at the moment of death?

No, they don't. Briefly, when you compare 2 Cor. 5:8 with verse 4, and then with 1 Cor. 15:51-55, it becomes very clear that Paul's "absent from the body" statement meant that believers will be "present with the Lord" on Resurrection Day, not before (compare also with 1 Thess. 4:17). The story of the rich man and Lazarus was "a parable" (compare Luke 16:19 with Luke 19:11, 12), not an actual account, for how else can you explain Lazarus ascending into "Abraham's bosom"? Finally, if you remove the punctuation from Luke 23:43, which was added hundreds of years after the New Testament was written, then Christ's actual promise to the thief on the cross would be, "Truly I say to you today [right now] you will be [in the future] with Me in Paradise." We know this is what Jesus meant because He didn't go to Paradise that day, but into Joseph's new tomb (see Luke 23:52,53). After rising from the dead, Christ told Mary, "I have not yet ascended to My Father" (John 20:17). Thus Jesus Himself did not go to heaven until after His resurrection.

"A lie can travel half-way around the world before truth puts its boots on," wrote the witty Mark Twain. According to the Bible, the "immortal soul" doctrine is one of those lies. Yes, it's popular; and yes, millions believe it; but the fact is that this doctrine was the first lie uttered to humanity by a serpent in the Garden of Eden. Unfortunately, Eve believed it, and so do most people today, including psychic mediums like Madam Sophia, and even Christian pastors.

The Bible sounds the warning that "the great dragon, the serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan...deceives the whole world" (Rev. 12:9, emphasis added).

Many ancient medieval churches still standing in England have one special door built into their north side called "The Devil's Door." Reasons vary, but one thing's for sure. If you believe in the "immortal soul" doctrine, such a belief can easily become The Devil's Door into Spiritualism and to being duped by Lucifer's legions impersonating dead people (read Deut. 18:11, Job 7:9,10, and Rev. 16:14).

My advice is: let's believe what God Almighty told Adam about sin and death.

Let's shut The Devil's Door.​

Thus, as we have seen from above, the doctrine of the Immortality of the Soul is a doctrine of Devils. It is the Beast's last design upon men to deceive, if possible, the very elect.

This is why it is so crucial for Christians to give it up.

Because it is the door to spiritualism. It is the door to mystical occult delusion. It is the essence of all witchcraft and spiritualism in the world.

Our invitation to you, therefore is, give up this doctrine. Lay it aside, and the Lord will bless you for doing so.

God bless.

If I thot that evil people would live forever, regardless, then I'd be wrong
But I don't so don't lump my belief in with others
All, good or bad, exist concsious after death as Rev and our Lord explains
The good will be brought here and raised incorruptible and live forever,
The bad will be destroyed at judgement

So since I do not believe that we shall not all surely die, then I don't believe Satans lie

As I said, I've studied with sda and I disagree with you'z on this subject and a few others
Still I give credit to sda for most of the shared doctrine

Why don't u believe Jesus' words about the concsiousness of the dead?
Lazarus and the rich man
Who do u figure Christ shared the gospel with between His crusifixion and resurrection?
Who r the spirits in prision?

Why don't u believe Rev5/6/12/19/22 shows consciousness after death?

 

[zeke37]

Bump