What exactly is a "judaizer" today

Frogster

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The greek/hebrew words for "dry" is interesting.

Note the way it is used in Reve 14 and 16...[I have a rather large study on this ehehe]

oh the wonder of His Word!! :pray:

Luke 23:31 That if in the moist wood these-things they are doing, in the Dry/xhrw <3584>, what may be becoming?

Reve 14:15 And another messenger out-came out of-the Sanctuary crying-out in great voice, to-the one sitting upon the cloud: "Send you! the sickle of you, and reap! That came the hour to reap, thatis-Dried/exhranqh <3583> (5681) the Harvest of the land".
[Joel 3:13/Matt 13:30]

Reve 16:12 And the sixth one pours out the bowl of him on the River, the great Euphrates and is-Dried/exhranqh <3583> (5681) up the water of it/him, that may be being made ready the way of the kings, the-ones from rising of-sun.

Good stuff as usual bro.

Intesting how Paul called mixing law and grace,a false Gospel.He had such confidence in it,he said that even if an angel preached another..curse on him!

I guess a curse on the false teachers is better than letting them put Christians under the curse of the law.

Jesus redeemed us from the curse on the cross.So why would some want to ignore the redemption,and put us under a curse that Christ took for us?Gal 3:13
 
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Frogster

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I would say they are the subverts of Acts 15. Today this would include anybody that has a foot in both the covenant with the Children of Israel and the New covenant of Jere 31:31 -34 and Heb 8:8 - 13. It is my opinion that they are not Christians (followers of Jesus) and will not inherit eternal life. I present Gal 5:4

Christians have a different law: which This law is the Torah - law of Moses - the Pentateuch - Covenant with Israel.

bugkiller

hi bug..I don't quite get u?

I think.:)
 
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Frogster

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i sort of agree with the first bit... but judaizing is more like compelling people to live like Jews rather than become Jews.

the key word in the sentence is 'compel'.



Steve

Hi.Yes,they were compelling them,but it seemd serious,more than living like Jews if they followed the compelling.

They would be in bondage,under a curse,fallen from grace,severed from Christ,obligated to keep the whole law,trying to perfect themselves in the flesh,etc.
 
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cyberlizard

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The background to Galatians is vital really.

What was believed by the mainstream Judaisms of the day back then is vital to understanding Galatians. The Rabbis taught that 'all Israel has a share in the world to come'. They argued that to secure a place in the world to come, one needed to be a member of the covenant people. That meant either being born a Jew, or becoming a Jew.

In rabbinic language, the process of converting to Judaism is called 'circumcision'.

So when Paul says things like if you allow yourself to be circumcised you make Christ of no value. This would be better phrased... if you allow yourself to change your ethnicity by becomng Jewish to gain membership of the covenant people you make Christ of no value. Anyone who goes through conversion to Judaism through the act of circumcision is obligated to follow the whole Torah.

Paul's gospel though is that to gain membership of the covenant people (securing a place in the world to come), thus becoming an heir to all the promises made to Abraham (as he is our father) you do not need to convert to Judaism. This is what made Paul's gospel different from others around him.


Steve

p.s. Galatians reads much better if the rabbinic second temple defintions of the following phrases are used... circumcision = ritual conversion to Judaism; works of law = the act of circumcision; under law = being jewish.
 
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RibI

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What exactly is a "judaizer" today

A "judazier" is one who puts, "the oral law" i.e. the traditions of the elders, which Jesus taught against, on a par or even higher than the written word of God, which Jesus said would always stand.
The modern version would be people that try to do away with God's written law today in favor of some tradition they or some other person has dreamed up.
There are plenty of them on this forum.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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A "judazier" is one who puts, "the oral law" i.e. the traditions of the elders, which Jesus taught against, on a par or even higher than the written word of God, which Jesus said would always stand.
The modern version would be people that try to do away with God's written law today in favor of some tradition they or some other person has dreamed up.
There are plenty of them on this forum.

I recall from the scriptures that the Judaizers actually had both . a tradition and the scripture . if you have some evidence that they were trying to abolish the law please quote it .
 
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brinny

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A "judazier" is one who puts, "the oral law" i.e. the traditions of the elders, which Jesus taught against, on a par or even higher than the written word of God, which Jesus said would always stand.
The modern version would be people that try to do away with God's written law today in favor of some tradition they or some other person has dreamed up.
There are plenty of them on this forum.

Aah, yes. i agree.
 
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RibI

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I recall from the scriptures that the Judaizers actually had both . a tradition and the scripture . if you have some evidence that they were trying to abolish the law please quote it .

They perverted the law of God with their traditions just the way people do today.

Mat.15:3,6
Mk. 7:8-9,13
 
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Gregory Thompson

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They perverted the law of God with their traditions just the way people do today.

Mat.15:3,6
Mk. 7:8-9,13

Ah yes . but they were never so direct . they would get into shouting matches if told this . but if you're saying pharisees/judaizers tear pages out of the bible by emphasis . then i would tend to agree .

but it isn't so much about perverting the law . the jews of the day thought Jesus was perverting the sabbath by working on it . and were livid when showed consistently that he would not follow their interpretation of the bible .

and would rather follow God . He exposed their interpretation as evil because they picked at little points but missed the big picture . The big picture is that every commandment was made to show them how to love .

He told us every commandment hung on two principles which meant to love God with everything in you and to love your neighbour as yourself .

this means if i love . then all perceived transgressions are null because if i really was loving (see 1 cor 13) then no law is against me (see galatians 5:22,23)

When the Pharisees realized just sitting around waiting for "the Way" to fail wasn't working they decided to infiltrate the church and try and subvert that . and these people were called Judaizers . Even the Sadducees joined in the fray saying there was no resurrection and such . but today Jesus still reigns supreme . and i will not forget what He stood for .

Galatians 2

21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
 
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Frogster

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A "judazier" is one who puts, "the oral law" i.e. the traditions of the elders, which Jesus taught against, on a par or even higher than the written word of God, which Jesus said would always stand.
The modern version would be people that try to do away with God's written law today in favor of some tradition they or some other person has dreamed up.
There are plenty of them on this forum.

Why then does it talk about Moses,in Galatians? That was not oral law.
 
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Frogster

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The background to Galatians is vital really.

What was believed by the mainstream Judaisms of the day back then is vital to understanding Galatians. The Rabbis taught that 'all Israel has a share in the world to come'. They argued that to secure a place in the world to come, one needed to be a member of the covenant people. That meant either being born a Jew, or becoming a Jew.

In rabbinic language, the process of converting to Judaism is called 'circumcision'.

So when Paul says things like if you allow yourself to be circumcised you make Christ of no value. This would be better phrased... if you allow yourself to change your ethnicity by becomng Jewish to gain membership of the covenant people you make Christ of no value. Anyone who goes through conversion to Judaism through the act of circumcision is obligated to follow the whole Torah.

Paul's gospel though is that to gain membership of the covenant people (securing a place in the world to come), thus becoming an heir to all the promises made to Abraham (as he is our father) you do not need to convert to Judaism. This is what made Paul's gospel different from others around him.


Steve

p.s. Galatians reads much better if the rabbinic second temple defintions of the following phrases are used... circumcision = ritual conversion to Judaism; works of law = the act of circumcision; under law = being jewish.

That is just the view of NT Wright,it is also a minority view,because the text does not indicate that.

Paul's gospel was the same as Peter's.So it was not different.It was also brought before the council in Acts 15,and it was about justification,that is why Peter spoke at the council meeting,and it was about justification,not inclusion.

Note here what they said..the judaizers.This is what started the debate,(verse 1,in Antioch)and what continued at the council.(verse 5,at the meeting).They were stressing salvation,not inclusion,it was about justification.

15:1 But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”

ok..now look at what peter said,at the meeting.;)



It was about cleansing the heart,by faith.(justification).And it did not come by the yoke of the law.That was a debate about law vs grace,same as Galatians.


Acts 158 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”
 
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Frogster

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They perverted the law of God with their traditions just the way people do today.

Mat.15:3,6
Mk. 7:8-9,13

Your taking a smaller secondary truth,to act as though the primary truth,is not what it is.

It was about the law of moses,in the book of galatians.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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Good morning.It is proof that the issue was not about oral law,but Mosaic,as I am sure you agree.:)
The prophets spoke against the people's hearts turned from God. In response the book of Leviticus was written, not by Moses, to bring conseccion to the people. That is the law that I believe is being spoken of. They called it the law of Moses but it was Mose' law rewritten.
 
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Frogster

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Judaizers were basically the false preachers trying to restore the bondage of the law, whom Paul warned about in Galatians 1:6-10. Incidentally, Marcion of Sinope based his entire theology on that passage, and reasoned that the Gospel and even the Apostle Paul himself were badly corrupted, so he tried to restore the texts by removing what he saw as adulterations.

Good post.Sounds like what the NPP people are trying to do today.
 
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T

Thekla

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They perverted the law of God with their traditions just the way people do today.

Mat.15:3,6
Mk. 7:8-9,13

I think its more which traditions, or their origin and ethos. Note that Paul says:

"Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances (paradosis/traditions), as I delivered [them] to you." 1 Cor. 11:2
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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I think its more which traditions, or their origin and ethos. Note that Paul says:

"Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances (paradosis/traditions), as I delivered [them] to you." 1 Cor. 11:2
Traditions of Paul :confused: what exactly are those?
 
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Frogster

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The prophets spoke against the people's hearts turned from God. In response the book of Leviticus was written, not by Moses, to bring conseccion to the people. That is the law that I believe is being spoken of. They called it the law of Moses but it was Mose' law rewritten.

Yes,It was Moses.But I never heard of that beofre.That he did not write lev?
 
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