What exactly happens after we die?

[BobRyan]

Jezmeyah said: ↑
The apostle Paul stated in 2 Cor.5:3 that we would be clothed and not be naked.

Amen!

In 2 Cor 5 there are 3 states of mankind discussed.

1. Clothed in this earthly body - decaying tent
2. Unclothed - having no body at all
3. Clothed with immortal eternal body.

In 1 Cor 15 - Paul discusses at length the point at which we receive immortal eternal bodies - at the resurrection. At the 2nd coming.

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Yes, however, the particular statement I'd made which referenced being clothed, had to do with the spirit man who leaves his body at death to go and be with the Lord in heaven.

At the time of separating from the physical body, the spirit man is of the appearance of a person, looking exactly as that of his physical appearance.

No Bible text claims that. Certainly it is not found at all in the text you quoted from 2 Corinthians 5.

Rather 2 Cor 5 talks about 3 states of man - and limits the entire discussion to TWO bodies. The first being this one that we have - and the 2nd being the immortal eternal one that we get at the resurrection as already discussed by Paul in the previous letter -- 1 Cor 15.

The 3 states listed in 2 Cor 5 are
1. Clothed in this decaying tent - decaying earthly body.
2. Unclothed in death.
3. Clothed with our immortal eternal bodies - at the 1 Cor 15 resurrection


Therefore, Paul is referring to the time of the rapture, when those righteous spirits who'd been residing in in dormant form - called the "dead in Christ" in 1 Thess 4 and also called "those who have fallen aspleep in Jesus" - are once again reunited with a body - only this time it is the immortal eternal body - as mentioned in 2 Cor 5 and 1Cor 15.

 

[BobRyan]

Bodies that are cremated just become dust that blows away

True - and bodies eaten by animals or buried in shallow graves, or lost at sea etc - all of them decay to dust after a while

God is not concerned about "which carbon atom" is used in your new eternal body mentioned in 2Cor 5. In fact your natural body sheds its carbon atoms about once every 7 years. That does not leave a bunch of "former you-'s" for God to chase down at the resurrection. He is not concerned at all with those atoms.

 

[Jezmeyah]

No Bible text claims that. Certainly it is not found at all in the text you quoted from 2 Corinthians 5.

The Bible speaks in 2 Cor.5:8 that "to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord."

What I wrote concerning the spirit man being exactly like the appearance of the person in life was based on the spirit man which is absent or separated from the physical body.

Rather 2 Cor 5 talks about 3 states of man - and limits the entire discussion to TWO bodies. The first being this one that we have - and the 2nd being the immortal eternal one that we get at the resurrection as already discussed by Paul in the previous letter -- 1 Cor 15.

The 3 states listed in 2 Cor 5 are
1. Clothed in this decaying tent - decaying earthly body.
2. Unclothed in death.
3. Clothed with our immortal eternal bodies - at the 1 Cor 15 resurrection.

You state that the spirit man is unclothed in death. I certainly agree that the spirit man being separated from the physical body at death is not wearing the natural clothing worn at the moment of death.

Therefore, Paul is referring to the time of the rapture, when those righteous spirits who'd been residing in in dormant form - called the "dead in Christ" in 1 Thess 4 and also called "those who have fallen aspleep in Jesus" - are once again reunited with a body - only this time it is the immortal eternal body - as mentioned in 2 Cor 5 and 1Cor 15.

You have written about that part of death that you focus on. Which is the dead body buried until it's resurrected.

I have written about that part of death that focuses on the spirit man as he is when separated from the physical body.
Which would include Heb.12:23- in heaven .. which does not state that those in heaven are unclothed, but states that they are made perfect.
In 2 Cor.5:3-4 it speaks of "not being found naked but clothed" when the spirit man is separated from the physical body in heaven.

 

[ViaCrucis]

What exactly happens after we die?

On one end, people say our souls go to their eternal destination. Heaven or hell.

On the other end, people say that our entirety, our whole being, our "soul" (which is used to refer to the entirety of a person and NOT something separate) goes to sleep in the grave to wake up in the resurrection of the dead, the day when earth will be renewed.



I ask that aside from just picking an answer, you explain why you think so too.

Thank you.

St. Paul indicates that we will be present with the Lord in the absence of the body. Beyond this the historic teaching of the Christian Church has been that between death and the resurrection of the body there is a conscious, intermediate existence in which there is a foretaste of what is to come: for the righteous it is a foretaste of the Age to Come and for the wicked it is a foretaste of ultimate Judgment. In Jewish thought at the time of Jesus, which Jesus regularly speaks of in the Gospels, there is Paradise (Gan-Eden) and Gehenna (Ge-Hinnom); the abode of the righteous dead and the abode of the wicked dead respectively; these are the two parts of She'ol or, in Greek, Hades.

When Christ turned to the thief and said, "Today you will be with Me in Paradise" He was not speaking of "heaven", but of Paradise, Gan-Eden, the abode of the righteous dead.

If we want to describe the intermediate, temporal existence between death and resurrection as "going to heaven" that's fine; but I'd argue the important aspect isn't locality ("where" we are) but rather Who we are with (St. Paul says it's the Lord). And so we can be confident that those who have fallen asleep in the Lord are with the Lord, at His side, until the Day He comes again in glory and the dead are raised. And, indeed, the Apocalypse itself depicts the holy saints and martyrs as before God's throne in the 6th chapter praying on our--we who are still on earth--behalf.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

There is no punctuation in the Greek... it can be "I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise" or "I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise." The rest of Scripture becomes the context that drives this verse.

The verse most likely does not refer to either scenario.

'TODAY' was a rabbinical term, referring to the coming of the Messiah. There are various rabbinical parables that show how the messiah will come "TODAY". In essence, it was used to show a sort of eternal perspective as God is outside of time and not bound to our perceptions of the passage of time.

Whatever day Jesus comes and we enter God's rest, it is "TODAY" - even if it feels to us like many 'todays' are passing.

Here is one such parable:
"(Joshua) said to him:
--"When will you come, Lord?"
He said to him:
--"Today!"...
(Elijah) said to him:
--"He promised you and your father the world to come!'
(Joshua) said to him:
--"He told me a lie! For he said he would come today but he did not come!"
(Elijah) said to him:
--"He told you thus:
'Today, if you will hear his voice" (Ps 57:7)"
--- Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 98a

This concept of TODAY is referenced directly in Psalm 95:7-11, Heb 3:7-12, Heb 4:1-11.

"Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, God again set a certain day, calling it “Today....." Heb 4:6-7

It is likely that Jesus was simply telling the man that due to his faith He would enter God's rest. (II Cor 5:6-8, I Thess 4:13-18)

Such as "I say to you "TODAY" you shall be with me in Paradise (for you have heard my voice)."

The two other possibilities are less likely:

"I say to you, today you shall be with me in Paradise". (As in, on this day specifically we'll hang out in Paradise) is the least likely as it seems to contradict II Cor 12:3-4, Rev 2:7, and I Pet 3:18-22. Jesus did not ascend to His Father until shortly after the Resurrection (I Pet 3:21-22, I John 20:17), so the verse could not mean that both the thief and Jesus were to meet together on that physical day in heaven. If Jesus had not yet ascended to His father when he rose (though He did later) - how could Jesus have gone up to heaven in the interim? In fact, Jesus' spirit 'descended' to make proclamation to imprisoned spirits. (1 Peter 3:18-21, Acts 2:23-36). He did not ascend to His father until after he rose (John 20:17) - though it is implied He had before a week had passed (John 20:24-29). [My personal theory is that he ascended before the throne at some point on the day He rose as the true/perfect First Fruits and Atonement offering (Heb 9:16-27, Heb 12:24, 1 Cor 15:23)]. It is then quite doubtful that Jesus and the thief were to be together in some suburb of Sheol meant for righteous spirits on that physical day. Furthermore, 'Paradise' is in currently in Heaven. II Cor 12:3-4, Rev 2:7. It seems to be that Paradise will come to earth and be in the new Jerusalem. (Rev 22:2, 7, 14, 18).

Jesus could have just meant "I'm telling you today/right now that you will be with me in Paradise (someday)". While it does not contradict other scripture, the grammar is a little clunky, and it doesn't have the support of the many scriptures and traditions that spoke to "TODAY" having a rich meaning in reference to the messiah.


It is most likely that Jesus referred to the spiritual 'TODAY' - the thief's physical body might die, but he would enter God's rest 'TODAY', for He had heard the voice of the Lord and acknowledged Jesus as Messiah.

 

[Ken Rank]

The verse most likely does not refer to either scenario.

'TODAY' was a rabbinical term, referring to the coming of the Messiah. There are various rabbinical parables that show how the messiah will come "TODAY". In essence, it was used to show a sort of eternal perspective as God is outside of time and not bound to our perceptions of the passage of time.

Whatever day Jesus comes and we enter God's rest, it is "TODAY" - even if it feels to us like many 'todays' are passing.

Here is one such parable:
"(Joshua) said to him:
--"When will you come, Lord?"
He said to him:
--"Today!"...
(Elijah) said to him:
--"He promised you and your father the world to come!'
(Joshua) said to him:
--"He told me a lie! For he said he would come today but he did not come!"
(Elijah) said to him:
--"He told you thus:
'Today, if you will hear his voice" (Ps 57:7)"
--- Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 98a

This concept of TODAY is referenced directly in Psalm 95:7-11, Heb 3:7-12, Heb 4:1-11.

"Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, God again set a certain day, calling it “Today....." Heb 4:6-7

It is likely that Jesus was simply telling the man that due to his faith He would enter God's rest. (II Cor 5:6-8, I Thess 4:13-18)

Such as "I say to you "TODAY" you shall be with me in Paradise (for you have heard my voice)."

The two other possibilities are less likely:

"I say to you, today you shall be with me in Paradise". (As in, on this day specifically we'll hang out in Paradise) is the least likely as it seems to contradict II Cor 12:3-4, Rev 2:7, and I Pet 3:18-22. Jesus did not ascend to His Father until shortly after the Resurrection (I Pet 3:21-22, I John 20:17), so the verse could not mean that both the thief and Jesus were to meet together on that physical day in heaven. If Jesus had not yet ascended to His father when he rose (though He did later) - how could Jesus have gone up to heaven in the interim? In fact, Jesus' spirit 'descended' to make proclamation to imprisoned spirits. (1 Peter 3:18-21, Acts 2:23-36). He did not ascend to His father until after he rose (John 20:17) - though it is implied He had before a week had passed (John 20:24-29). [My personal theory is that he ascended before the throne at some point on the day He rose as the true/perfect First Fruits and Atonement offering (Heb 9:16-27, Heb 12:24, 1 Cor 15:23)]. It is then quite doubtful that Jesus and the thief were to be together in some suburb of Sheol meant for righteous spirits on that physical day. Furthermore, 'Paradise' is in currently in Heaven. II Cor 12:3-4, Rev 2:7. It seems to be that Paradise will come to earth and be in the new Jerusalem. (Rev 22:2, 7, 14, 18).

Jesus could have just meant "I'm telling you today/right now that you will be with me in Paradise (someday)". While it does not contradict other scripture, the grammar is a little clunky, and it doesn't have the support of the many scriptures and traditions that spoke to "TODAY" having a rich meaning in reference to the messiah.


It is most likely that Jesus referred to the spiritual 'TODAY' - the thief's physical body might die, but he would enter God's rest 'TODAY', for He had heard the voice of the Lord and acknowledged Jesus as Messiah.

You're welcome to that view...

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus could have just meant "I'm telling you today/right now that you will be with me in Paradise (someday)". While it does not contradict other scripture, the grammar is a little clunky, and it doesn't have the support of the many scriptures and traditions that spoke to "TODAY" having a rich meaning in reference to the messiah.

Indeed - there is no punctuation in the greek text - the thief asks "remember me WHEN you come into your kingdom"

Christ's answer is in kind "Truly I say to you today you SHALL be with Me in paradise"

And in John 20 Jesus tells Mary after his resurrection "I have not YET been to the Father" - He had not yet gone to paradise.

 

[Roseonathorn]

What happens after we die, based on people that clamed to have been dead and come back, You either go to heaven or hell after death. After the last breath is taken usually some worry is happening before death and then ones spirit goes in a dark tunnel with a light opening. In the Heaven is a lovely place and people usually wanted to be there, usually they meet Jesus and their name is found in the Lambs book of Life and they meet sometimes relatives. In heaven we do not marry, we have a spiritual body, colors are beautyful. Some of them are brought back to earth by lifesaving equipment on hospitals, by prayer or by other things. God has a plan and we people do not know it all, our wishes are not His commands. If we wish to stay in heaven if we die too young we might have the "priviledge" to be saved back to life as common people say. We do not want unnecessary grief in the family either, but God never want a Child to die. Going to hell is hellish so belive in Jesus, that He has given His life for Your sins and forgive Your enemies turn away from Your sins and at the best of Your abilities be generous. God bless You.

 

[BobRyan]

What happens after we die, based on people that clamed to have been dead and come back, You either go to heaven or hell after death.

Very good point.

But if we change the basis for doctrine to "based on what the Bible says" -- then what is the correct answer? For example Christ said that God is not the God of the dead in Matthew 22 in his "proof" for the fact that there MUST be a future resurrection in order for God to say to Moses "I AM the God of Abraham".

So then Abraham could not be with God in heaven - and still "require" a 2nd coming resurrection event to make God's statement to Moses true "I AM the God of Abraham". In other words Christ's "proof" only works one way... The "dead in Christ" in 1 Thess 4 are those who have "fallen asleep in Jesus" as 1Thess 4 says.