What exactly happened at the Cross?

PrettyboyAndy

• Andy •
Site Supporter
Sep 14, 2009
1,080
353
Toronto/NY
✟93,218.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I know the veil was town in 1/2, and Christ is now our high priest and we have direct access to the father.

The Father crushed the Son, but Christ was sinless, he took upon the sins of the world, but he did not become sin.?

For Christ to pay for the sins, wouldn't He have to take them upon Himself, so God punishes Christ instead of us? Did Christ become sin?

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Cor. 5:21
 

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,473
✟86,544.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
I know the veil was town in 1/2, and Christ is now our high priest and we have direct access to the father.

The Father crushed the Son, but Christ was sinless, he took upon the sins of the world, but he did not become sin.?

For Christ to pay for the sins, wouldn't He have to take them upon Himself, so God punishes Christ instead of us? Did Christ become sin?

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Cor. 5:21
As the Surety of His people He had no sin of His own but the sin of His people became His by imputation as though they were His. He was punished for that sin without mercy or mitigation. The very thought of taking our sin in His own body on the tree caused Him to sweat great drops of blood.

The sin of His people weren't just laid on Him as though they were a burden on His back but they became His sins and He died under the curse of the law for them putting them away by the sacrifice of Himself.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PrettyboyAndy
Upvote 0

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,473
✟86,544.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Here is an article that I wrote some time ago on Particular Redemption that should help:

Particular Redemption

Let me begin by saying I am not very fond of the term “limited atonement’. All but Universalists limit the atonement in some way. I prefer the term “Particular Redemption” as it speaks more plainly to the teaching of the Scriptures and leaves less room for misunderstanding. I will take as my text John 10:11. I am the Good Shepherd: the Good Shepherd giveth His life for the sheep. Now if that were the only passage of Holy Scripture that speaks to the doctrine of a definite and particular redemption we would still be bound to believe what it says. There seems to me to be absolutely no wriggle room in this statement by our Lord.
I want to speak to this issue from 3 perspectives as the Scriptures speak: Christ as our Surety, Christ as our sin bearer and Christ as our substitute. It is my purpose to show how and why we can trust Christ’s work for all our salvation.
A proper understanding of the atonement of Christ is crucial to the Gospel. There really is no Gospel without it. Let me see if I can explain: The good news of the Gospel lies in the truth of what Christ accomplished on the cross. Either He, by His death, actually accomplished redemption for someone or His death really means nothing. Where is the good news in an atonement that didn’t atone? Where is the wonderful message in a redemption that that didn’t redeem? How can a sinner look to a Savior with confidence who didn’t actually save? The only hope a sinner can have is that Christ did actually make an atonement for his sin. This is the ground of assurance we preach and believe. Our hope is in the finished work of the Savior.
Now our text says that the Good Shepherd gives His life for the sheep. No one took His life, they had neither the authority nor power to do so, He gave it up for the sheep. He repeats the fact that He lays down His life for the sheep again in verse 15 of John 10. He makes it even more plain in verses 17and 18 of the same chapter. He told Pilate that he had no power over Him unless it was given him from above. (John 19:11) Christ laying down His life for the sheep was a voluntary act on His part. There was no force or coercion involved. Infinite love and fathomless mercy toward the sheep moved Him to act.

A question?
This brings us to a question: How is it possible that Christ could voluntarily lay down His life for the sheep? It is true that no court in the world would allow such a thing. No righteous judge could possibly put to death an innocent person. God says in Proverbs 17:15, He that justifieth the wicked and he that condemeth the just, even they both are an abomination to God. How then can God be righteous and put to death that One who was holy, harmless, undefiled and separate from sinners? The answer rests in the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ was no mere man. A mere man has no authority to lay down his life because his life doesn’t belong to him. All men answer to a higher authority, God, and have no right to give that which doesn’t belong to them. That isn’t the case with Christ. As God, He has every right over His own life and may give it as He pleases. He alone is able to lay down His life for the sheep. The word translated power in John 10:18 is authority.
Are you still with me? I know I have taken the long way around to get here but I believe it was necessary to lay a foundation in order to properly grasp the meaning of Scripture when it speaks of Christ’s atonement. So with what has been already said in mind lets now look at 3 ways the Bible speaks of Christ. I hope to answer the question as to how God can righteously put to death His darling Son in the place of chosen sinners. Once that has been answered we are able to see that the death of Christ on the cross was for the sheep alone.

A Surety.
The writer to the Hebrews tells us in 7:22 that Jesus was made a surety of a better covenant. What is a surety? The modern idea of a surety is like a co-signer on a loan but that isn’t the Scriptural concept. We have 2 examples given for us that will take us a long way in understanding what the Scriptures mean by a surety. The first is in Gen. 43:9. Judah becomes a surety for Benjamin. As a surety he agrees to bear all the blame for any failure. He takes upon himself full responsibility and by doing so relieves Benjamin of guilt for his failure to return. The second we find in Philemon 18. Paul became a surety for Onesimus. In essence Paul is saying that his debt is mine, I make it mine and agree to repay all he owes. Because Paul became surety no debt could be charged to Onesimus. He must go free. The debt is now Paul’s to repay. Onesimus no longer owes anything to Philemon. So we see that a surety doesn’t agree to pay only the part that is left unpaid, as a co-signer, but takes the whole debt in its entirety. The debt becomes solely his who is surety and that one for whom he becomes surety must go free because he no longer owes anything.
In the Covenant of Grace, made between the three persons of the Godhead before the foundation of the world, Christ became Surety for all that the Father gave Him. (John 6:39) As the Great Shepherd of the sheep He took full responsibility for them and must bear the blame for any that are lost. As their Surety He guarantees their safety and must bring them into the sheepfold. (John 10:16) If He fails to do what He agreed to do then the blame isn’t on the sheep but on Him. Again, as the Surety of the sheep He took all their debt as His own. In that everlasting covenant ordered in all things and sure He said, “Whatever they owe I will repay. They must go free.” Justice no longer can seek satisfaction from them, they have a Surety. The creditor can no longer require payment from them, they have a Surety. They are free from all debt and blame; their Surety has taken it as His own. We have a beautiful picture of Christ our Surety when the men came to take Him in John 18:7,8. Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:
There are some in this world who are not the sheep for whom Christ became Surety. In verse 26 of John 10 we find our Lord telling some men that they believe not because they are not His sheep. He was neither their Surety nor their Shepherd. If He had been He couldn’t have said those words to them.
This thought ought to strike terror in the heart of unbelievers. How awful it will be to stand before the judge of the whole earth without a Surety. No wonder it is said in Rev. 6:16 that they will cry for the mountains and the rocks to fall on them and hide them from the wrath of the Lamb. Do you have a Surety? If you believe on Him who is the Surety of a better covenant you do. Trusting Him alone as taking your debt and making it His own is evidence that He is your Surety.

A Sin Bearer.
Next I want us to look at Christ the sin bearer. There are several passages of Scripture that speak of Christ bearing sin. Probably the most well known is Isa 53. In verse 6 we read that the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all. In verse 11 we read that He shall justify many for He shall bear their iniquities. And in verse 12 we read He bare the sin of many. In what way did Christ bear sin?
Sin incurs guilt. If I rob a bank it makes no difference whether I am caught I am still guilty of bank robbery. I have committed a crime and deserve the just reward of my deed. I bear the guilt for my crime. Peter tells us in 1Pet. 2:24 that Christ bore our sins in His own body on the tree. The great mass of guilt that was the burden of all the elect of God He took upon Himself. He bore it as a burden that was His own. He suffered under the heavy weight of it. The guilt of sin was imputed to Him in an act of justice. We read that the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all. A transfer was made from the sinner to the Savior. (Remember what I said about Christ being the only one who has the authority to do such a thing) We have this typified for us in the scapegoat. Lev. 15:21,22
We read that Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the scapegoat
confessing the sin of the people putting them on the head of the goat typifying a transfer of guilt. In verse 22 we find that the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities. The scapegoat is then led away by the hands of a fit man (I love the way the KJV puts it) into the wilderness and let go never to be seen again. In the same way Christ, as our scapegoat bearing the sin of His people, has born sin away so thoroughly that God says of it that it shall be looked for but shall not be found. Jer. 50:20 He bore it away as far as the East is from the West. How far is that? North meets South at the poles but East never meets West. You may travel East forever without ever traveling West. He has removed our sin so completely that even God who sees everywhere can’t find it. He carried it away in His own body on the tree, blotting out the handwriting of ordinances against us taking it out of the way nailing it to His cross. In Hebrews 1:3 we read that He has (notice it is past tense) purged our sins. That means it is completely removed and no longer exists. When you purge something not even a small remnant of it remains. It is gone. Even the sin that I do today and will do tomorrow is gone. Christ bore it away.

A Subsitute.
Next is Christ our substitute. The passage that speaks to this is 2Cor. 5:21. I will be the first to admit that the word substitute isn’t in the Scriptures but certainly the idea is. 2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. An old preacher friend of mine once said, “ God must first do something for Himself before He can ever do something for the sinner.” We said earlier that sin incurs guilt. There is something else that sin incurs; it incurs the wrath of a holy and just God. He cannot just overlook and forgive sin. We are able to do that because we are ourselves sinners in need of forgiveness. He has sworn and will not go back that the soul that sins must die, Ezek. 18:4. Strict unbending justice demands the death of the sinner and before mercy can be granted justice must be satisfied. If God were to be merciful and forgive sin without satisfying the demand of strict justice He would cease to be God. His holiness and righteousness would fall to the ground. In Psa 85:10 we read that mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other. There is only one way this can ever take place: in Christ our substitute. God hath made Him to be sin for us!
Can it be true? Was Christ made to be sin? Yes it is because He was. Remember what we said about no righteous judge putting an innocent man to death? The act of imputation that took place was no mere pasting on but a transfer of guilt. He didn’t just carry our sin it became His. He took it as His own and died under the wrath of God because of it. With one tremendous draft of love, He drank damnation dry. Again I refer you to 1Pet. 2:24. We read that He bore our sin in His own body on the tree not on His body. Psalm 40 is generally accepted as a Messianic Psalm. It is interpreted as Christ speaking. Hear what He says in verse 12: Psa 40:12 For innumerable evils have compassed me about: mine iniquities have taken hold upon me, so that I am not able to look up; they are more than the hairs of mine head: therefore my heart faileth me
The Lord our Savior Jesus Christ satisfied all the demands of justice against the sin of all for whom He was the substitute. He stood in their place and suffered as a sinner until wrath was spent and could no longer rise up against His people. God can never again punish any for whom Christ was the substitute. God can never be wrathful against any sinner for whom Christ died. He may, in love, chastise and correct them but never again punish them. God did something for Himself in order to be merciful to sinners. He exhausted His wrath against the sin of His elect and satisfied His strict justice in a perfect substitute.

Conclusion.
There are more ways that Christ is spoken of in the Scriptures having to do with atonement by Him that I haven’t dealt with: propitiation, redemption, ransom, Passover, sacrifice, the Lamb of God and Jehovah’s Servant. All of which, when properly understood, speak of Him doing something for a particular people. Christ laid down His life for the sheep. There are no hypotheticals involved. As the Surety of His people He made their debt His. As their sin bearer He has removed their sin. As their substitute He stood in their place and put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. By His own blood He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption. Heb. 9:12
In light of these things the objections raised pale by reason of the glorious truth that Christ is the Savior.
 
Upvote 0

PrettyboyAndy

• Andy •
Site Supporter
Sep 14, 2009
1,080
353
Toronto/NY
✟93,218.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
As the Surety of His people He had no sin of His own but the sin of His people became His by imputation as though they were His. He was punished for that sin without mercy or mitigation. The very thought of taking our sin in His own body on the tree caused Him to sweat great drops of blood.

The sin of His people weren't just laid on Him as though they were a burden on His back but they became His sins and He died under the curse of the law for them putting them away by the sacrifice of Himself.

But God is Holy and can not be around sin, how could God in the flesh take upon our sins, if he is Holy and cant not be around sin?
 
Upvote 0

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,473
✟86,544.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
But God is Holy and can not be around sin, how could God in the flesh take upon our sins, if he is Holy and cant not be around sin?
That is why when the Father found sin on His Son He killed Him.

If you want to know anything about God, in His Triune nature, all you have to do is go to the cross. There we see just how much God hates sin and will punish it. We see the wondrous love of God for His people in the substitutionary sacrifice of the Son. We see the penalty for sin in the most cruel and ignominious death imaginable. We find the mercy and grace of God wonderfully on display there. Whatever you seek to find about the characheter and attributes of God are found on display at the cross.

But we also see what the free will of man does to God when given the opportunity.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JM
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
But God is Holy and can not be around sin, how could God in the flesh take upon our sins, if he is Holy and cant not be around sin?

That was the problem, Jesus was the solution to bridge the chasm.
 
Upvote 0

food4thought

Loving truth
Site Supporter
Jul 9, 2002
2,929
725
50
Watervliet, MI
✟383,729.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
But if God is Holy and cannot be around sin, because his Holy nature does not allow it, how was he able to take sin upon himself?

The way I understand it, Jesus humbled Himself to do this much as He humbled Himself to become a man. It is not that God is absolutely unable to be around sin, otherwise the Holy Spirit could not dwell in us sinners, either; but it is that God's character is such that He cannot "wink" at sin, He must deal with it. This is the mystery, the wonder, and the beauty of what Christ did at the cross: He, being in very nature God, took upon Himself, actually became in some sense, our sin and suffered the wrath for it from the Father. What this meant for the Trinity is a mystery to us, what this meant for us is beautiful and wondrous... we can now be forgiven for all our sin through grace by faith in Jesus Christ.

Hope this helps.

BTW: I attend a Methodist church, but I am attending a Baptist college, and my doctrine is probably closer to Baptist than it is Methodist. Hope no one minds me posting here on occasion...
 
Upvote 0

PrettyboyAndy

• Andy •
Site Supporter
Sep 14, 2009
1,080
353
Toronto/NY
✟93,218.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
The way I understand it, Jesus humbled Himself to do this much as He humbled Himself to become a man. It is not that God is absolutely unable to be around sin, otherwise the Holy Spirit could not dwell in us sinners, either; but it is that God's character is such that He cannot "wink" at sin, He must deal with it. This is the mystery, the wonder, and the beauty of what Christ did at the cross: He, being in very nature God, took upon Himself, actually became in some sense, our sin and suffered the wrath for it from the Father. What this meant for the Trinity is a mystery to us, what this meant for us is beautiful and wondrous... we can now be forgiven for all our sin through grace by faith in Jesus Christ.

Hope this helps.

BTW: I attend a Methodist church, but I am attending a Baptist college, and my doctrine is probably closer to Baptist than it is Methodist. Hope no one minds me posting here on occasion...

Great point didn't think of the indwelling Holy Spirit in the sinner.
 
Upvote 0

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,473
✟86,544.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
But if God is Holy and cannot be around sin, because his Holy nature does not allow it, how was he able to take sin upon himself?
He became a man who is God and as such He was able to bear our sin in His own body on the tree.

(Heb 2:10) For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

(Heb 2:11) For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,


You could translate the word "became" as necessary. It was fitting or needful.

The word "perfect" means complete or accomplished.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PrettyboyAndy
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JM

Augsburg Catholic
Site Supporter
Jun 26, 2004
17,358
3,626
Canada
✟745,852.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
John Flavel:

Father.
My son, here is a company of poor miserable souls, that have utterly undone themselves, and now lie open to my justice! Justice demands satisfaction for them, or will satisfy itself in the eternal ruin of them: What shall be done for these souls?

Son. O my Father, such is my love to, and pity for them, that rather than they shall perish eternally, I will be responsible for them as their Surety; bring in all thy bills, that I may see what they owe thee; Lord, bring them all in, that there may be no after-reckonings with them; at my hand shalt thou require it. I will rather choose to suffer thy wrath than they should suffer it: upon me, my Father, upon me be all their debt.

Father. But, my Son, if thou undertake for them, thou must reckon to pay the last mite, expect no abatements; if I spare them, I will not spare thee.

Son. Content, Father, let it be so; charge it all upon me, I am able to discharge it: and though it prove a kind of undoing to me, though it impoverish all my riches, empty all my treasures, (for so indeed it did, 2 Cor. 8: 9. “Though he was rich, yet for our sakes he became poor”) yet I am content to undertake it.

Blush, ungrateful believers, O let shame cover your faces; judge in yourselves now, has Christ deserved that you should stand with him for trifles, that you should shrink at a few petty difficulties, and complain, this is hard, and that is harsh? O if you knew the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ in this his wonderful condescension for you, you could not do it.
 
Upvote 0

Winken

Heimat
Site Supporter
Sep 24, 2010
5,709
3,505
✟168,847.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Great point didn't think of the indwelling Holy Spirit in the sinner.

The born-again (Spiritually birthed) Christian's standing is no longer "sinner," it is saved, soon to be sanctified, and eternally secure, without exception. He or she is known as the Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PrettyboyAndy
Upvote 0

food4thought

Loving truth
Site Supporter
Jul 9, 2002
2,929
725
50
Watervliet, MI
✟383,729.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The born-again (Spiritually birthed) Christian's standing is no longer "sinner," it is saved, soon to be sanctified, and eternally secure, without exception. He or she is known as the Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.
Whatever our standing, we still sin; and we will continue to, from time to time, until the day our Lord takes us.
 
Upvote 0

Winken

Heimat
Site Supporter
Sep 24, 2010
5,709
3,505
✟168,847.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Whatever our standing, we still sin; and we will continue to, from time to time, until the day our Lord takes us.

Yes, we still engage in sins (verbs). Our standing before God is set free from sin, forgiven forever, in terms of eternal security. No longer sinner (verb), we are saved by Grace (our sin-free standing).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,473
✟86,544.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Yes, we still engage in sin (verbs). Our standing before God is set free from sin, forgiven forever, in terms of eternal security. No longer sinner (verb), we are saved by Grace (our sin-free standing).
Did that occur at the cross or upon believing? Or did it occur in the purpose of God in the Covenant of Grace before the world began?
 
Upvote 0

food4thought

Loving truth
Site Supporter
Jul 9, 2002
2,929
725
50
Watervliet, MI
✟383,729.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Yes, we still engage in sins (verbs). Our standing before God is set free from sin, forgiven forever, in terms of eternal security. No longer sinner (verb), we are saved by Grace (our sin-free standing).

I'm sorry Winken, I wasn't trying to argue... my point was with reference to the OP, and my earlier post which spoke of the Holy Spirit dwelling in us even when we sin.
 
Upvote 0

iLove

Newbie
Jan 3, 2013
392
93
✟28,526.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The Cross of Christ, i.e., Finished Work, i.e., The Blood of Jesus, has given the Believer victory in every capacity of life.

Our union with Christ gives the Believer guaranteed victory:

Victory over sin: Romans 8:1-2
Victory over the world: Galatians 6:14 ; 1 John 5:4
Victory over the flesh: Galatians 5:24
Victory over the devil: Hebrews 2:14 ; Colossians 2:15
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: PrettyboyAndy
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums