• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured What does this verse mean? Was Paul a liar?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Open Heart, Sep 27, 2017.

  1. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

    +10,773
    Christian
    Married
    In other words, Paul is challenging them to cognitive dissonance. He's been accused of deceiving them by not taking their money--and they've believed it.
     
  2. Radagast

    Radagast has left CF Supporter

    +7,268
    Australia
    Christian
    Single
    Which is why Paul points out that the guys he sent (like Titus) didn't exploit them either.
     
  3. TaylorSexton

    TaylorSexton 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith

    +418
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    Then I don't know what to say to you. You post a question, yet when people give you the answer that is virtually a consensus among commentators, you reject it. What else is there to do? You have already decided—even before asking the question, it seems—what the answer is not. Why continue this thread at all? Do you have some ulterior motive?
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2017
  4. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Life is lived in the shape of a "?" Supporter

    +4,813
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    I don't think she has any ulterior motive; she is simply sensing that this verse gives her trouble. Sure, maybe she needs to read a book or two on exegesis and/or hermeneutical application, but I've seen her around here enough to know that she means well. She's just trying to figure things out. Give her some time.

    Peace,
    2PhiloVoid
     
  5. TaylorSexton

    TaylorSexton 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith

    +418
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    I understand, and that is what I figured. Even so, with such overwhelming agreement in this thread on a board that typically breeds nothing but division and strife, it is rather apparent what the answer is in this case. It just strikes me as odd that somebody would post a question when they have already decided a priori what they know the answer at least is not.

    Oh, well.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2017
  6. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Life is lived in the shape of a "?" Supporter

    +4,813
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    Since you are a "divinity" major whom I assume wants to learn how to work with people for their own good and for the sake of the Gospel, I'm sure you'll understand that some people have emotional difficulties which can also interfere with their perceptions and emotional responses. So, in those cases, you may have to be a bit more ... patient and lenient. Don't assume that everyone is trying to outsmart you--it isn't always simply a case of the 'a prioris' running wild.
     
  7. TaylorSexton

    TaylorSexton 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith

    +418
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    Fair enough.
     
  8. 2Timothy2:15

    2Timothy2:15 Well-Known Member

    +1,208
    Christian
    Married

    This actually means the opposite, it is like a rhetorical question, of course he didn't.

    Here is Matthew Henry's commentary

    16-18. If it should be objected by any that though he did not himself burden them, yet, being crafty, he caught them with guile, that is, he sent those among them who pillaged them, and afterwards he shared with them in the profit: "This was not so,' says the apostle; "I did not make a gain of you myself, nor by any of those whom I sent; nor did Titus, nor any others-We walked by the same spirit and in the same steps.' They all agreed in this matter to do them all the good they could, without being burdensome to them, to promote the gospel among them and make it as easy to them as possible. Or, this may be read with an interrogation, as utterly disclaiming any guile in himself and others towards them.

    People also make this same mistake with other verses ironically enough when it comes to 1 Corinthians 9.
     
  9. 2Timothy2:15

    2Timothy2:15 Well-Known Member

    +1,208
    Christian
    Married
    Not sure what you are talking about. When a church is in sin you rebuke them openly.

    Here is a mainline commentary on the issue. Pretty much all others agree he was meaning the opposite, that he did not "trick" them.

    16-18. If it should be objected by any that though he did not himself burden them, yet, being crafty, he caught them with guile, that is, he sent those among them who pillaged them, and afterwards he shared with them in the profit: "This was not so,' says the apostle; "I did not make a gain of you myself, nor by any of those whom I sent; nor did Titus, nor any others-We walked by the same spirit and in the same steps.' They all agreed in this matter to do them all the good they could, without being burdensome to them, to promote the gospel among them and make it as easy to them as possible. Or, this may be read with an interrogation, as utterly disclaiming any guile in himself and others towards them.
     
  10. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

    +4,320
    United States
    Seeker
    Celibate
    The word crafty isn't the problem. It's the word being translated as guile or deceit. However, I'm getting a lot of good posts on this. I have a lot to chew on.
     
  11. mukk_in

    mukk_in Yankees fan Supporter

    +3,275
    India
    Christian
    Celibate
    No, he wasn't a liar. Paul was being sarcastic and was scolding the Corinthians in a way that they could understand. Peace in Christ :).
     
  12. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

    +4,137
    Christian Seeker
    Single
    Isn't sarcasm a form of lying? I actually avoid using sarcasm, of course, not 100% I hope God forgives me for such mistakes.
     
  13. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

    +4,137
    Christian Seeker
    Single
    Somehow, it's plausible, at least Paul pretended to be something He is not (which is a form of deceit right??)

    Read this:

    1 Corinthians 9:21
    To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law.
     
  14. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

    +4,320
    United States
    Seeker
    Celibate
    This particular interpretation, if true, would undermine all of Christianity.
     
  15. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

    +4,137
    Christian Seeker
    Single
    Most but not all. I have experienced the supernatural works of the Holy Spirit and saw Christ in dreams a few times teaching me the secrets of God's Kingdom.

    If I have to cross out Paul, that still leaves me with a solid belief in Christ and the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ did not promise us the Bible but the Holy Spirit to guide us in the Truth.

    In addition, Paul have also remained a Pharisee. He isn't lying when he claimed to be a Pharisee. Paul is most likely learned in the Pharisee School of Hillel through Gamaliel (in the Bible). And ironically, Paul's unique theology in the Bible has many things in common with the Hillel Pharisee sect.
     
  16. Radagast

    Radagast has left CF Supporter

    +7,268
    Australia
    Christian
    Single
    The word δόλος, translated as "deceit," is certainly a bad thing (it's used in Matthew 26:4, Mark 7:22, Mark 14:1, etc.).

    But, as I said, the almost universal agreement of commentators (ancient and modern, Catholic and Protestant) is that Paul is quoting an accusation against him, and showing how ridiculous the accusation is.

    I really don't understand what your problem is with this verse.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2017
  17. Emmy

    Emmy Senior Veteran

    +790
    Salvation Army
    Dear Open Heart. No, Paul was not a liar, some things take a bit more understanding, than others. But what is more true, Jesus tells us in Matthew 22: 35-40: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy hearts, with all thy souls, and with all thy minds. The second is like it, love thy neighbour as thyself." In verse 40 we are told: On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. God is Love, and God wants loving sons and daughters. The Bible tells us:
    Give up all selfish and unloving thoughts and words, be loving and compassionate. God sees our loving and caring, and God will BLESS us greatly. Matthew 7: 7-10: tells us: Ask and you shall receive. We ask for Love and Joy, and Compassion, then we than thank God, and share all love and joy, and compassion with all around us. God will see our loving and caring, and God will Bless us greatly. Love is very catching, and love is Very strong. God wants loving men and women, let us try, and try again, Jesus our Saviour will help and lead us. Let us follow Jesus and start loving and caring, God first, and our neighbour second.
    I say this with love, Open Heart. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
     
  18. GirdYourLoins

    GirdYourLoins Well-Known Member

    809
    +614
    Pentecostal
    Married
    UK-Conservative
    Read the verse in the Amplified and other versions. Different versions can give a better context of the original meaning. To be honest I find the ASV and NASB often used on here to be amongst my least favourite versions of the bible as the language and wording used often does not fit in well with the modern use of English and feel this is the case here. What it apparently means is that he is addressing accusations that he was using trickery, not that he was doing so.
     
  19. tonemonkey

    tonemonkey New Member

    18
    +12
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Here's that passage and surrounding verses in the New Living Translation:

    2 Corinthians 12:14-19 NLT
    Now I am coming to you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you. I don't want what you have-I want you. After all, children don't provide for their parents. Rather, parents provide for their children. [15] I will gladly spend myself and all I have for you, even though it seems that the more I love you, the less you love me. [16] Some of you admit I was not a burden to you. But others still think I was sneaky and took advantage of you by trickery. [17] But how? Did any of the men I sent to you take advantage of you? [18] When I urged Titus to visit you and sent our other brother with him, did Titus take advantage of you? No! For we have the same spirit and walk in each other's steps, doing things the same way. [19] Perhaps you think we're saying these things just to defend ourselves. No, we tell you this as Christ's servants, and with God as our witness. Everything we do, dear friends, is to strengthen you.

    You can see that Paul was saying that others thought he was tricking them, and he can't see how.
     
  20. Saved.By.Grace

    Saved.By.Grace Member

    233
    +140
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Private
    Absolutely NOT! There is not a single verse that shows that Paul, or any other writer in the Holy Bible was in any way dishonest! Our English versions use "deceit", but the Greek "δόλος", can also mean "using a bait", without any notion of "deceit".
     
Loading...