What does this Scripture Mean to Protestants?

LittleLambofJesus · Mar 6, 2008

Assisi said:
That's a laughable claim.

They in essence ruled me "anathema"

Galatians 1:1 Paul, a commssioner not from men, neither through man, but through Jesus Christ and God, Father of the one rousing Him out of dead-ones,
6 I am marveling that thus swiftly ye are being changed/translated from the calling of ye into a different Good-Message.
7 which is not another if no any are the ones disturbing ye and willing to pervert the Good-Message of the Christ.
8 But even ifever we, or a messenger out of heaven, should be messaging to ye beside which we well-messagizing to ye, anathema/anaqema <331> let him be.
9 As we have declared before and at present again I am saying if any is well-messagizing beside which ye beside got, anathema/anaqema <331> let him be.

Reve 22:3 and every anathema/kat-anaqema <2652> not shall be still. And the throne of the God/YHWH and of the Lamb-kin/Word in Her shall be, and His bond-servants shall be offering divine-service to Him.

Assisi · Mar 6, 2008

I read your posts in OBOB. It seems odd to me that you would call what you posted there 'preaching the Gospel'. Usually preaching the Gospel involves mentioning Christ.

LittleLambofJesus · Mar 6, 2008

Assisi said:
I read your posts in OBOB. It seems odd to me that you would call what you posted there 'preaching the Gospel'. Usually preaching the Gospel involves mentioning Christ.

I was just responding to the other Roman catholic about rejecting those who preach.
You will notice I put Scripture up in a lot of those posts and even got reported for doing that!!!! .

We all know how us defective protestants are viewed essentially as "heretics" by the Roman Papacy and his church, so don't come here on GT from the OBOB trying to throw the Gospel according to Rome at us, ok? Peace.

Assisi · Mar 6, 2008

holdon said:
Vs 21 is Jesus sending His disciples as missionaries into the world.
Vs 22 is Jesus giving the new life in the Spirit.
Vs 23 is Jesus telling them that they can forgive sins or not and that that decision is respected.

Hi holdon,
I'm interested to know what exactly you mean by the above. Do you mean that an apostle is given the gift of being able to forgive sins as God would forgive? Or just that they can forgive as every Christian is called to forgive? Jesus demonstrated His divine nature by forgiving sins, but as Christians we are called to forgive those who sin against us. Can an apostle forgive a sin which was not a sin against him personally?

Thanks.

LittleLambofJesus said:
I was just responding to the other Roman catholic about rejecting those who preach.
You will notice I put Scripture up in a lot of those posts and even got reported for doing that!!!! .

We all know how us defective protestants are viewed essentially as "heretics" by the Roman Papacy and his church, so don't come here on GT from the OBOB trying to throw the Gospel according to Rome at us, ok? Peace.

I wish there was a 'rolls eyes' emoticon.

PROPHECYKID · Mar 6, 2008

chestertonrules said:
John 20

21 Again Jesus said, Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.

22 And with that he breathed on them and said, Receive the Holy Spirit.
23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.

Some one of a different religion to me once told me something that is very true. The best way to understand what Jesus meant when he told his disciples things is to look at how the disciples carried it out. If God was giving the disciples the authority to forgive sins on Jesus' behalf then they would have done so. NONE OF THE DISCIPLES ever encouraged anyone to confess their sins to them. They never had a special times for confession and forgiveness of people's sins. They never assumed any authority to forgive sins. It is either they just disobeyed or Jesus did not mean that they had the power to forgive sins. But Paul coming after definitely knew that that was not what God meant. He wrote the book of Hebrews didn't he. This is what he said.

Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such a high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Jesus is our heavenly high priest. He is the mediator between God and man. Before Jesus the earthly high priest was the mediator but now in the new covenant Jesus is our high priest. He fulfills everything the earthly high priest used to do and he did and is doing them much better.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Only one mediator and that is Jesus and not any earthly priest, He makes intercession for us.

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

No wonder Peter did not tell anyone to confess their sins to him to be forgiven. He pointed them to someone else.

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I guess he was paying attention when Jesus said:
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

He nor any other disciple or apostle pointed anyone to them to obtain forgiveness for their sins. It must be that they knew that they did not have the power to forgive sins but only the man Christ Jesus can forgive sins. John who was with Jesus who was there when Jesus spoke in verse 23 said this.

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

He did not say that you have an advocate with him but with the father. The point is that when we sin we don't sin against the priest we sin against God and against the person we did wrong based on the sin. Only those persons can forgive us.

LittleLambofJesus · Mar 6, 2008

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

I was just responding to the other Roman catholic about rejecting those who preach.
You will notice I put Scripture up in a lot of those posts and even got reported for doing that!!!! .

We all know how us defective protestants are viewed essentially as "heretics" by the Roman Papacy and his church, so don't come here on GT from the OBOB trying to throw the Gospel according to Rome at us, ok? Peace.

Assisi said:
I wish there was a 'rolls eyes' emoticon.

Here ya go.

I would have used them on the OBOB board but my in-box would probably have filled up with reports from the army of the Roman Pontiff

Assisi · Mar 6, 2008

PROPHECYKID said:
NONE OF THE DISCIPLES ever encouraged anyone to confess their sins to them. They never had a special times for confession and forgiveness of people's sins. They never assumed any authority to forgive sins.

But how can we know this?

PROPHECYKID said:
Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such a high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

I love Hebrews.

PROPHECYKID said:
Jesus is our heavenly high priest. He is the mediator between God and man. Before Jesus the earthly high priest was the mediator but now in the new covenant Jesus is our high priest. He fulfills everything the earthly high priest used to do and he did and is doing them much better.

I don't deny that Christ is our mediator. He died for us, to reconcile us to Himself. But then why did He give powers such as this to the Apostles if He didn't intend to work through them?

PROPHECYKID said:
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

This is a reference to the 'lamb that was slain' in Revelation - Christ. But Christ gave many powers to the Apostles and to us. Yes, Christ intercedes for us in a way that no one else could, but we also intercede for each other when we pray for each other.

PROPHECYKID said:
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

He did not say that you have an advocate with him but with the father. The point is that when we sin we don't sin against the priest we sin against God and against the person we did wrong based on the sin. Only those persons can forgive us.

It doesn't say private confession though. This could be equally applied to confession where the priest absolves sin.

LittleLambofJesus · Mar 6, 2008

Jesus is our heavenly high priest. He is the mediator between God and man. Before Jesus the earthly high priest was the mediator but now in the new covenant Jesus is our high priest. He fulfills everything the earthly high priest used to do and he did and is doing them much better.

Nice post!!! I know this will not interest the RCs much, but here almost an 8 part series this one Christian did on Melchizedek and I have a massive study in a folder just on him Fascinating!!!! Thoughts?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Hebrews 7:1 For this the Malkiy-Tsedeq/melcisedek <3198> , King of Salem/salhm <4532>, Priest/iereuV of the God/YHWH of the most-high/uyistou <5310>, the together-joining Abraham turning-back from the smiting of the kings, and did bless him [Genesis 14:18]

12 For being changed/translated/metatiqemenhV<3346> (5746) the Priesthood, out of necessity also, of Law a change/metaqesiV <3331> is becoming/ginetai <1096> (5736),

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/priest/RP24.htm

One of the most intriguing descriptions of the unique character of the High Priesthood of Jesus is found in Heb. 7:17 wherein it is stated, "Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek." This one grand statement shows that Jesus is not like any of the other priests who the people of Israel knew so much about. The entire seventh chapter of Hebrews is about THE MELCHIZEDEK CONNECTION, that is, it is about the way Jesus Christ, and thus, His body, the Royal Priesthood, is related to a strange man named Melchizedek.

holdon · Mar 6, 2008

chestertonrules said:
Read more carefully!

For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry

I don't have to believe Clement. It's simply not inspired. And possibly he could have misunderstood 2 Tim 2:2 which does not talk about episcopate but about teachers.

holdon · Mar 6, 2008

Assisi said:
Hi holdon,
I'm interested to know what exactly you mean by the above. Do you mean that an apostle is given the gift of being able to forgive sins as God would forgive? Or just that they can forgive as every Christian is called to forgive? Jesus demonstrated His divine nature by forgiving sins, but as Christians we are called to forgive those who sin against us. Can an apostle forgive a sin which was not a sin against him personally?

Yes, apostles were given to forgive sins. Not as God would forgive, but administratively. See Mt 16 and 18 where the assembly is given the same. And it is to be in the spirit of the kingdom where the greatest is like a child....

christianmomof3 · Mar 6, 2008

In those verses we see that the Lord Jesus breathed Himself as the Holy Spirit into the disciples and then He gave them the authority to forgive sins. This authority was not in themselves, but from the Holy Spirit who now dwelt in them. Any regenerated, born again Chrisitan has the Holy Spirit dwelling in us and any of us have that authority. It is not in us and of us, but from the Holy Spirit and is to be done in fellowship with other members of the Body.

thereselittleflower · Mar 6, 2008

chestertonrules said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by chestertonrules
"And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, 'I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.'... Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry...For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties." Pope Clement, Epistle to Corinthians, 42, 44 (A.D. 98). "True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]; and [it consists in] reading [the word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy; and [above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts [of God]." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:33:8 (A.D. 180).

And this is the christian faith of the Apostles!

Amen and Amen!

chestertonrules · Mar 6, 2008

PROPHECYKID said:
Some one of a different religion to me once told me something that is very true. The best way to understand what Jesus meant when he told his disciples things is to look at how the disciples carried it out. If God was giving the disciples the authority to forgive sins on Jesus' behalf then they would have done so. NONE OF THE DISCIPLES ever encouraged anyone to confess their sins to them.

You don't know this. Let's see what the early church believed:

"All mortal sins are to be submitted to the keys of the Church and all can be forgiven; but recourse to these keys is the only, the necessary, and the certain way to forgiveness. Unless those who are guilty of grievous sin have recourse to the power of the keys, they cannot hope for eternal salvation. Open your lips, them, and confess your sins to the priest. Confession alone is the true gate to Heaven." Augustine, Christian Combat (A.D. 397).

Hippolytus

"[The bishop conducting the ordination of the new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . . Pour forth now that power which comes from you, from your royal Spirit, which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy apostles . . . and grant this your servant, whom you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power] to feed your holy flock and to serve without blame as your high priest, ministering night and day to propitiate unceasingly before your face and to offer to you the gifts of your holy Church, and by the Spirit of the high priesthood to have the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your command" (Apostolic Tradition 3 [A.D. 215]).

"Moreover, it is in accordance with reason that we should return to soberness[of conduct], and, while yet we have opportunity, exercise repentance towards God. It is well to reverence both God and the bishop." Ignatius, Epistle to the Smyraeans, 9 (c. A.D. 110).

Origen

"[A final method of forgiveness], albeit hard and laborious [is] the remission of sins through penance, when the sinner . . . does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and from seeking medicine, after the manner of him who say, I said, "To the Lord I will accuse myself of my iniquity"" (Homilies on Leviticus 2:4 [A.D. 248]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"The apostle [Paul] likewise bears witness and says: . . . Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord [1 Cor. 11:27]. But [the impenitent] spurn and despise all these warnings; before their sins are expiated, before they have made a confession of their crime, before their conscience has been purged in the ceremony and at the hand of the priest . . . they do violence to [the Lords] body and blood, and with their hands and mouth they sin against the Lord more than when they denied him" (The Lapsed 15:13 (A.D. 251]).

"Of how much greater faith and salutary fear are they who . . . confess their sins to the priests of God in a straightforward manner and in sorrow, making an open declaration of conscience. . . . I beseech you, brethren, let everyone who has sinned confess his sin while he is still in this world, while his confession is still admissible, while the satisfaction and remission made through the priests are still pleasing before the Lord" (ibid., 28).

Ambrose of Milan
"For those to whom [the right of binding and loosing] has been given, it is plain that either both are allowed, or it is clear that neither is allowed. Both are allowed to the Church, neither is allowed to heresy. For this right has been granted to priests only." (Penance 1:1 -- A.D. 388)

chestertonrules · Mar 7, 2008

christianmomof3 said:
In those verses we see that the Lord Jesus breathed Himself as the Holy Spirit into the disciples and then He gave them the authority to forgive sins. This authority was not in themselves, but from the Holy Spirit who now dwelt in them. Any regenerated, born again Chrisitan has the Holy Spirit dwelling in us and any of us have that authority. It is not in us and of us, but from the Holy Spirit and is to be done in fellowship with other members of the Body.

That is your interpretation. I don't think that is what the verse says.

sunlover1 · Mar 7, 2008

chestertonrules said:
John 20

21 Again Jesus said, Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.

He's sending them with that same authority that God
sent HIM into the world.

22 And with that he breathed on them and said, Receive the Holy Spirit.

They needed that life giving Spirit in them if they
were to have the power available to them.

23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven

They had the authority to judge who was or
wasnt forgiven.

sunlover1 · Mar 7, 2008

christianmomof3 said:
This authority was not in themselves, but from the Holy Spirit who now dwelt in them.

Hi Christianmomof3,

Amen, which is why He had to quicken them and
fill them with that power of the Holy spirit
fIRST before sending them off without it.

Any regenerated, born again Chrisitan has the Holy Spirit dwelling in us and any of us have that authority. It is not in us and of us, but from the Holy Spirit and is to be done in fellowship with other members of the Body

How would that work in reference to retaining and
remitting sin?
I thought it was a special gift for those Apostles
at that time...

18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone;
21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=6979561#_ftn1

But am interested in hearing your pov.
sunloverhttp://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=6979561#_ftnref1

stumpjumper · Mar 7, 2008

Mod note:

Moving thread to Christian Scriptures which is the appropriate sub-forum for exegetical discussions.

racer · Mar 7, 2008

holdon said:
Vs 21 is Jesus sending His disciples as missionaries into the world.
Vs 22 is Jesus giving the new life in the Spirit.
Vs 23 is Jesus telling them that they can forgive sins or not and that that decision is respected.

So, do you interpret this to mean that if a person seeks forgiveness and asks for forgiveness, the church can choose to deny him forgiveness?

christianmomof3 · Mar 7, 2008

sunlover1 said:
Hi Christianmomof3,

Amen, which is why He had to quicken them and
fill them with that power of the Holy spirit
fIRST before sending them off without it.

How would that work in reference to retaining and
remitting sin?
I thought it was a special gift for those Apostles
at that time...

18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone;
21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

But am interested in hearing your pov.
sunlover

The foundation of the church is Christ. The revelation of Christ that was first revealed to the apostles is considered the foundation upon which the church is built as seen in some verses.
Now we all have that revelation and are all regenerated believers are members of the household of God.
We have the same Christ that the apostles had. They just got Him first.

As far as forgiving sins goes - it is the Lord Himself that does that - not people. The people who have the authority to do so are those in whom the Holy Spirit dwells. And it is the Holy Spirit Himself who forgives the sins and allows the people to confirm that forgiveness to others.
If someone offends me and then appologizes to me, I tell them that I forgive them.
If someone offends God and confesses to Him, He will let them know that He has forgiven them. But what if they are not yet saved? How can they know that their sins are forgiven and that they can be baptized?
A regenerated member of the Body of Christ can let them know that their sins have been forgiven.
That person is not doing the forgiving himself - only the Lord Himself can forgive the sins, but, the Lord as the Holy Spirit dwelling in us can let us know that someone's sins are forgiven and we can tell that person so that they will know also.
And, this authority is really not for individuals, but for the church - when two or three are gathered together in His name.

holdon · Mar 7, 2008

racer said:
So, do you interpret this to mean that if a person seeks forgiveness and asks for forgiveness, the church can choose to deny him forgiveness?

I think that if a person truy seeks forgiveness and if a church is truly following kingdom principles, there should not be a problem.

However, Paul had to insist to the Corinthians in the second letter that they would forgive and reinstate the offender that they were so lax in dealing with in the first epistle.

But read Mt 18:35 where really the pressure is put on to follow those kingdom principles.

Thus also my heavenly Father shall do to you if ye forgive not from your hearts every one his brother.

What does this Scripture Mean to Protestants?

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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