What does this mean?: “We must not mind insulting men, if by respecting them we insult God.”

[SingularityOne]

*Orthodox answers only please*

By St. John Chrysostom

What does this mean?

Obvioauly the goal isn’t to insult men, but to honor God. But, can someone go further into the meaning of this in relation to how we should relate to others with love?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Possibly a meditation on John 5:44

 

[( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)]

Just speak the truth in love.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Romans 12:18 may also be related in the sense of the love application in a mutual respect sense, the agape hasn't come to me.

I am also reminded of Luke 14:26 (in the sense of putting others second) and Matthew 10:37 (and also putting God first)

thanks for the opportunity to meditate.

 

[ArmyMatt]

just as an example of what comes to mind, if someone is heretical, it's not loving to approve of that heresy. it doesn't glorify God and it doesn't matter if it's insulting to him. the loving thing is to gently but firmly, tell the error.

 

[SingularityOne]

just as an example of what comes to mind, if someone is heretical, it's not loving to approve of that heresy. it doesn't glorify God and it doesn't matter if it's insulting to him. the loving thing is to gently but firmly, tell the error.

What about on things like abortion, homosexuality, and all of the falsehoods in our society? Is there a time when speaking is not recommended or, in other words, outside of dogma, does more discernment on speaking truth come into the equation?

 

[Greengardener]

What about on things like abortion, homosexuality, and all of the falsehoods in our society? Is there a time when speaking is not recommended or, in other words, outside of dogma, does more discernment on speaking truth come into the equation?

Good question, for sure. Ecclesiastes notes there is a time to speak and a time to keep silent. But there is NOT a time to accept or approve of what God Himself condemns about the wrong behaviors of mankind. Gensis notes that Noah preached righteousness and that he built the ark. The gospels record Jesus asked for workers to go into His fields white for harvest. Paul and others note that all we do should be done in love. Proverbs says a word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in frames of silver - which I would take to be a good thing. I'd guess that how we walk impacts any words we use too.

Agreed, thank you for the opportunity to meditate on this idea. Others have made thoughtful contributions I appreciated reading.

Edit added: My apologies - I'm not orthodox. Please feel free to delete.

 

[Ezana]

Reading that, I was reminded of the story of Lot in Sodom (Genesis 19:4-10). Perhaps he's saying that we ought not refrain from doing what pleases God, because it displeases man. Or, it's worth risking offending others if the act which might cause offence is the very will of God. Evil men in our lives may press sore upon us, but it's only then that God can put forth His hand to bring us into the house and shut the door.

 

[ArmyMatt]

What about on things like abortion, homosexuality, and all of the falsehoods in our society? Is there a time when speaking is not recommended or, in other words, outside of dogma, does more discernment on speaking truth come into the equation?

it's the same as the heresy point. being uncompromising and firm, but gentle is how discernment comes in.

 

[WonbyOneanddone]

*Orthodox answers only please*

By St. John Chrysostom

What does this mean?

Obvioauly the goal isn’t to insult men, but to honor God. But, can someone go further into the meaning of this in relation to how we should relate to others with love?

Truth is offensive.

As Socrates once said, if there ever was a man to walk the earth telling the truth for the sake of truth, he will probably wind up murdered.

And yes, Socrates also met that fate as well.

Surprise, surprise.

 

[HTacianas]

*Orthodox answers only please*

By St. John Chrysostom

What does this mean?

Obvioauly the goal isn’t to insult men, but to honor God. But, can someone go further into the meaning of this in relation to how we should relate to others with love?

You're right that the goal is not to insult a person, but rather to correct them, even if it might mean hurting their feelings. The idea is found here and there throughout the bible:

Lev 19:17 ‘You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him.

The meaning is that by allowing or accommodating sin committed by your neighbor, you share in his guilt. There's a lot of rabbinical commentaries on the law that have that a person is only guilty of some sins if they have been warned against them beforehand. Therefore there is an obligation to warn someone against some thing or another. In Chrysostom's comment, even if that means insulting them. Jesus said likewise:

Luk 17:3 “Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

Note that "against you" may not have been in the original. It is omitted in some texts. But the meaning is the same as Lev 19:17.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

*Orthodox answers only please*

By St. John Chrysostom

What does this mean?

Obvioauly the goal isn’t to insult men, but to honor God. But, can someone go further into the meaning of this in relation to how we should relate to others with love?

There are some interesting stories of staretz and Holy Fools that I think are in the ball park.

https://nationsmedia.org/basil-the-holy-fool/


Also a few stories in the Bible like with Mortdecai and Haman, and Daniel not obeying Nebuchadazar's order to not pray to God, and even the 3 Holy youths in the Fiery Furnace.

 

[SingularityOne]

it's the same as the heresy point. being uncompromising and firm, but gentle is how discernment comes in.

Ah, gentleness is what I was having a hard time understanding. Thanks Fr. Matt.

 

[ArmyMatt]

no problem

 

[SingularityOne]

You're right that the goal is not to insult a person, but rather to correct them, even if it might mean hurting their feelings. The idea is found here and there throughout the bible:

Lev 19:17 ‘You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him.

The meaning is that by allowing or accommodating sin committed by your neighbor, you share in his guilt. There's a lot of rabbinical commentaries on the law that have that a person is only guilty of some sins if they have been warned against them beforehand. Therefore there is an obligation to warn someone against some thing or another. In Chrysostom's comment, even if that means insulting them. Jesus said likewise:

Luk 17:3 “Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

Note that "against you" may not have been in the original. It is omitted in some texts. But the meaning is the same as Lev 19:17.

Interesting. Sharing in his guilt by not letting him/her know it’s a sin in gentleness?

 

[SingularityOne]

There are some interesting stories of staretz and Holy Fools that I think are in the ball park.

https://nationsmedia.org/basil-the-holy-fool/


Also a few stories in the Bible like with Mortdecai and Haman, and Daniel not obeying Nebuchadazar's order to not pray to God, and even the 3 Holy youths in the Fiery Furnace.

Thanks, I’ll look at this. Good reminder on the stories too.

 

[SingularityOne]

Good question, for sure. Ecclesiastes notes there is a time to speak and a time to keep silent. But there is NOT a time to accept or approve of what God Himself condemns about the wrong behaviors of mankind. Gensis notes that Noah preached righteousness and that he built the ark. The gospels record Jesus asked for workers to go into His fields white for harvest. Paul and others note that all we do should be done in love. Proverbs says a word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in frames of silver - which I would take to be a good thing. I'd guess that how we walk impacts any words we use too.

Agreed, thank you for the opportunity to meditate on this idea. Others have made thoughtful contributions I appreciated reading.

Edit added: My apologies - I'm not orthodox. Please feel free to delete.

No worries, feel free to stay! It was my fault to not make that clear before posting the thread initially.

 

[Justin-H.S.]

Ah, gentleness is what I was having a hard time understanding. Thanks Fr. Matt.

How does one be gentle yet uncompromising when speaking the truth?

Do you just say the truth dispassionately? Aloof-like? Or do you just ease them into it?

 

[SingularityOne]

How does one be gentle yet uncompromising when speaking the truth?

Do you just say the truth dispassionately? Aloof-like? Or do you just ease them into it?

Fr. Matt would be able to answer that better than I. That’s a good question!

 

[ArmyMatt]

How does one be gentle yet uncompromising when speaking the truth?

Do you just say the truth dispassionately? Aloof-like? Or do you just ease them into it?

you focus on the heresy as wrong, not the person. you also don't heresy hunt.