Mark Corbett

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Still leaves the other question about instructions to slaves and the 1 Cor 8 message for us to digest.
Thus the instruction to women also, compared to what happened in Philemon then.

I'm sorry it has taken me so long to reply. As far as I can tell your main point is here:

Paul wants us to do whatever it takes to help those of weak faith. Since a women's lib would have destroyed many men of weak faith, women needed to remain in traditional roles, that much is clear.

Part of the reason that this type of argument is not persuasive for me is that when Paul writes about men's and women's roles in the church he does not give the type of culturally based reasons which you suggest. Look at what he actually writes:


1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

Paul's reasoning is not at all based on the culture or a local situation in Ephesus. Rather it is based on the creation and the fall.
 
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Mark Corbett

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Women were ordained as deacons. The word servant is one word for deacon and minister.

Romans 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:2  That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

Women may have been ordained as deacons in the New Testament churches. The data is not conclusive, as the word "deacon" can also mean a "servant" in a more general way in which all Christians can be servants.

More importantly, in the New Testament the office of deacon did not include either authority over men in the church or teaching. If a church today has a type of deacon office which does not involve teaching and/or authority over the whole church, then I believe there is not Biblical reason for a woman not to be a deacon. The role of elder/pastor is separate.
 
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Halbhh

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I'm sorry it has taken me so long to reply. As far as I can tell your main point is here:



Part of the reason that this type of argument is not persuasive for me is that when Paul writes about men's and women's roles in the church he does not give the type of culturally based reasons which you suggest. Look at what he actually writes:


1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

Paul's reasoning is not at all based on the culture or a local situation in Ephesus. Rather it is based on the creation and the fall.

That's a quote that I still wonder on, as I know that Adam's sin was equal, not less. How could Paul think otherwise? He likely did not.
 
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Mark Corbett

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That's a quote that I still wonder on, as I know that Adam's sin was equal, not less. How could Paul think otherwise? He likely did not.

I cannot fully explain the quote either. There are some reasonable guesses though. However, I'm convinced that Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that he is right, even when I can't explain it.
 
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Halbhh

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I'm sorry it has taken me so long to reply. As far as I can tell your main point is here:



Part of the reason that this type of argument is not persuasive for me is that when Paul writes about men's and women's roles in the church he does not give the type of culturally based reasons which you suggest. Look at what he actually writes:


1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

Paul's reasoning is not at all based on the culture or a local situation in Ephesus. Rather it is based on the creation and the fall.

Can I presume you see the general application of 1 Cor 8 as about any and all local customs? If not please consider. It's not about only meat, yes?

If women in Corinth should wear only blue so that men will not fall away, then the message means wear blue.
 
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Can I presume you see the general application of 1 Cor 8 as about any and all local customs? If not please consider. It's not about only meat, yes?

If women in Corinth should wear only blue so that men will not fall away, then the message means wear blue.

So, I think this is the part of 1 Cor 8 you are referring to:

1 Cor 8:8 But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.
9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your rights does not become a stumbling block to the weak.

Of course, the rest of the chapter can be read for more context.

I believe the principle in these verses applies to situations where a believer knows something is NOT forbidden, but chooses to abstain to keep someone else from stumbling. We should not make such an issue a cause for division or stumbling. An example today would be a Christian who knows that drinking a small amount of alcohol without getting drunk is not in itself a sin, yet chooses to totally abstain for the sake of others.

I do not believe that women teaching men in the church is this type of issue. The reason is that the Bible specifically prohibits it and gives reasons which are not limited to a local or temporary situation.
 
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Alithis

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Bible%2BWomen%2BPastors%2B1.jpg


When I discuss women pastors in this blog, I am referring to women in pastor positions which involve teaching men in a group and/or exercising authority over the whole church, including men. This would include all Senior Pastor positions. I am not addressing women serving as a pastor over women’s ministries or children’s ministries, which I believe the Bible allows.

I am convinced that the Bible does not allow women to serve as pastors. There are three main reasons. Each reason provides strong evidence on its own, and when combined these three lines of evidence leave no reasonable doubt about the Bible’s position on this issue.

1. The Consistent Biblical Example

Bible%2BWomen%2BPastors%2B2.jpg


In the Bible, all the examples of people who were called by God to teach gathered groups His Word were men.

In addition to offering sacrifices and serving in the temple, God assigned the priests to “teach the Isrealites all the decrees the LORD has given them through Moses” (Leviticus 10:11). The Old Testament priests were all men.

The twelve apostles were called to teach God’s Word. They were all men.

We don’t know with certainty who God inspired to write some of the books of the Bible. But the Bible names many of its own authors. Of the approximately 30 named authors of the Bible, every one of them is a man.

In fact, there is not a single, clear, explicit positive example anywhere in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation of a woman teaching the gathered people of God.

What about Deborah, you ask? No, the Bible only says she judged by sitting under a tree and settling the disputes of people who came to her. I’m not saying it’s impossible that she taught gathered groups God’s truth, but the Bible does not explicitly state this.

What about women prophets? No. There are women prophets in both the Old and New Testament. However, the Bible consistently separates the role of prophecy and the role of teaching. In the New Testament, if any prophecy was given in a church meeting, the prophecy was to be evaluated by others (1 Corinthians 14:29). During this evaluation, the women were to be silent (1 Corinthians 14:34).

What about Priscilla? No. Along with her husband, she privately taught Apollos, which is different from teaching the congregation as a pastor.

There really is not a single example in the Bible of a woman serving in a role that is equivalent to the job of a Senior Pastor. Was this merely an accommodation to cultural norms? No. Jesus Himself appointed the twelve apostles, and Jesus had the authority and courage to go against cultural norms, and He often did! Many women were among Jesus’ followers, and they serve as very positive examples and effective, powerful witnesses. However, for the role of teaching the whole church His truth, Jesus chose twelve men.

#2 The Church is Like the Family

Bible%2BWomen%2BPastors%2B3.jpg


The Bible clearly and repeatedly teaches that the husband is the head of his family. The Bible teaches this by teaching that children should obey their parents, and by teaching that the husband is the head of his wife (Ephesians 5:23). This truth is also seen in the verses which instruct wives to submit to their husband’s leadership (Ephesians 5:22, 24; Colossians 3:18; 1 Peter 3:1).

It makes sense that leadership in the family prepares one for leadership in the church, which is God’s family. In fact, the Bible makes good leadership of one’s family a requirement for pastors:

1 Timothy 3:4-5 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church?

The church IS family, so it is appropriate that since God appoints men to lead in their families, He also appoints men to lead in His churches, which are our spiritual families.

#3 The Explicit Teaching of the Bible

Bible%2BWomen%2BPastors%2B4%2BComplementarian%2BEgalitarian.jpg


The wording and context of 1 Timothy 2:12 are so clear and simple that this verse should settle the dispute about women serving as pastors. The context of this verse is a letter with instructions about conduct in a local church (1 Timothy 3:14-15). Just four verses after 1 Timothy 2:12, Paul begins to give instructions for choosing elders (whom the Bible also calls pastors or overseers in other places). So this verse does not mean that women cannot teach men math or physics or history, and it doesn’t even mean that a woman can’t teach a man something from the Bible in a private setting. It means that women can’t teach men in the gathered church setting as a Senior Pastor does. I’m not saying this is the only application, but it is certainly the primary application.

Those who come from an egalitarian viewpoint have endlessly attacked this verse by combinations of distorting its obvious meaning and denying its Biblical authority. Then, after endless attacks, they basically say, “This verse is so controversial, we shouldn’t base our conduct on it”. In this way they undermine not only this specific teaching, but the authority, clarity, and trustworthiness of God’s Word in general.

One of the most common attacks on this verse is to claim that it was only meant to apply to a specific situation in Ephesus, where Timothy was instructing the church. However, the reasons Paul gives for His instruction in 1 Timothy 2:12 are found in the next couple of verses and have nothing at all to do with a local situation in Ephesus:

1 Timothy 2: 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

Since Paul bases His instructions on events related to the creation of Adam and Eve and their fall, his instructions must apply to all of us.

Finally, in addition to 1 Timothy 2:12, two other verses state that overseers/elders must be the husband of one wife (1 Timothy 3:2 and Titus 1:6). Obviously only a man can be a husband.

Please Don’t Distort this Biblical Teaching

I’m not saying women cannot or should not be very active in many different types of ministries. My wife and I were blessed to serve the Lord for 14 years in Indonesia. We have often said that one of our most fruitful investments during that time was pouring our lives into, discipling, and training three Indonesian Christian ladies. One of these ladies was the only person we sponsored to attend Bible college. Sponsorships for Bible College was not our main focus, but we saw her potential. All three women have continued to play leadership roles in very challenging ministries since we left. That those roles do not involve teaching a gathered church or exercising authority over men does not diminish their value.

Conclusion

The direct teaching of Scripture, the Biblical role of men as the head of their families, and the consistent example of the whole Bible, all demonstrate that only men should serve as pastors.

Two notes:
1. Feel free to copy and use the graphics in this article.
2. This is a lightly modified version of an article originally posted on my blog.
Just a question.. Where are any people.men or women ..supposed to “exercise authority“ over.... The body?
 
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Mark Corbett

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Just a question.. Where are any people.men or women ..supposed to “exercise authority“ over.... The body?

Great Question, Alethis.

The exercise of authority in the church looks (or should look) quite a bit different from what it does in the world. Still, there is a type of authority and leadership.

First, I would say that the major way in which the church is led is through teaching God’s Word and helping people see how to apply it. This is why the one “skill” which an elder must have is the ability to teach:

ESV 1 Timothy 3:2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

This makes sense because Jesus is the One ultimate ruler of His church. We do not lead (or should not) based on our own whims and opinions, but based on His truth. However, we should not think that it is wrong to say elders/pastors also “rule”:

ESV 1 Timothy 5:17 Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.

ESV 1 Thessalonians 5:12 We ask you, brothers, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you,

Part of an Elders job involves oversight:

ESV 1 Peter 5:1 So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed: 2 shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly;

It is very likely that just four verses later Peter is referring to these same elders:

ESV 1 Peter 5:5a Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders.

Likewise, Hebrews 13:17 says:

ESV Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Finally, the title “overseer” (1 Timothy 3:1, Titus 1:7) implies a type of authority.

Certainly the way in which elders/pastors/overseers exercise authority over the church should be far different from worldly leaders, but they do indeed exercise authority.
 
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Alithis

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Great Question, Alethis.

The exercise of authority in the church looks (or should look) quite a bit different from what it does in the world. Still, there is a type of authority and leadership.

First, I would say that the major way in which the church is led is through teaching God’s Word and helping people see how to apply it. This is why the one “skill” which an elder must have is the ability to teach:

ESV 1 Timothy 3:2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

This makes sense because Jesus is the One ultimate ruler of His church. We do not lead (or should not) based on our own whims and opinions, but based on His truth. However, we should not think that it is wrong to say elders/pastors also “rule”:

ESV 1 Timothy 5:17 Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.

ESV 1 Thessalonians 5:12 We ask you, brothers, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you,

Part of an Elders job involves oversight:

ESV 1 Peter 5:1 So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed: 2 shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly;

It is very likely that just four verses later Peter is referring to these same elders:

ESV 1 Peter 5:5a Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders.

Likewise, Hebrews 13:17 says:

ESV Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Finally, the title “overseer” (1 Timothy 3:1, Titus 1:7) implies a type of authority.

Certainly the way in which elders/pastors/overseers exercise authority over the church should be far different from worldly leaders, but they do indeed exercise authority.
Interesting.

Let the elders who rule well..
I suspect strongly (being no schollar)
That this is all about making decisions about differing matters that arise and nothing to do with lording..or control or dictating.
 
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Mark Corbett

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Interesting.

Let the elders who rule well..
I suspect strongly (being no schollar)
That this is all about making decisions about differing matters that arise and nothing to do with lording..or control or dictating.

Whoa . . . I never said anyone should be "lording" or "dictating".
We probably agree (mostly) about HOW the church should be led. It should be led with gentle love. By teaching God's truth. With wisdom from above. For God's glory. With a servants heart. By imitating our Lord, who did clearly lead, yet also took a towel and washed his disciples feet.
 
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Alithis

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Whoa . . . I never said anyone should be "lording" or "dictating".
We probably agree (mostly) about HOW the church should be led. It should be led with gentle love. By teaching God's truth. With wisdom from above. For God's glory. With a servants heart. By imitating our Lord, who did clearly lead, yet also took a towel and washed his disciples feet.
No lol.I didn't say you said that.
..but we both know it is exactly what has happened.
We also both know that across the earth that system has become so entrenched as to be irreversible.

Luther could not reverse it in his day so he came out of it and reformed it .But he bought so much of it into his re forming that it has essentially merged back in .

That sytem is a system with a whiney roof a dusty interior and abrabnit Warren of corruption beneath it far far deeper then the average pew sitter has ever imagined...
Too much?

Lol I'm sure for some.
Its dependency on building and funds set it up as absolutely vulnerable to corruption and corrupt it is.
And I'm talking of Baptist Pentecostal charismatic etc.let alone the ancient evils.

Yes I'm in a rant lol...
Recently I met people in Europe..they came out of Dutch Churches .Lutheran..a few others.. They testified of a phenomenon ... Mary worship.
They said they couldnt understand it
.it started with an Inocuous little photo in the foyer ..but grew to full statues and prayers..
They could not stomach it.this usurping of position by this false godess ..or why this was happening so suddenly in so many congregations.

A funding issue ..a sell out.
A long standing leadership planting now being revealed.
?????
You choose.
 
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Mark Corbett

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No lol.I didn't say you said that.
..but we both know it is exactly what has happened.
We also both know that across the earth that system has become so entrenched as to be irreversible.
. . .
That sytem is a system with a whiney roof a dusty interior and abrabnit Warren of corruption beneath it far far deeper then the average pew sitter has ever imagined...
Too much?

All churches have some problems. Many churches are in terrible condition. Yet Christ loves them.

The church, and not merely some idealistic image of it, but actual local churches full of messed up people trying to figure it out together is part of His plan.

The NT churches were full of problems, like churches are today. But the solution is not to give up on them. I wrote a blog post a bit ago about the importance of the local church:

She Gave Everything for Her Church, Will You?
 
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Alithis

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All churches have some problems. Many churches are in terrible condition. Yet Christ loves them.

The church, and not merely some idealistic image of it, but actual local churches full of messed up people trying to figure it out together is part of His plan.

The NT churches were full of problems, like churches are today. But the solution is not to give up on them. I wrote a blog post a bit ago about the importance of the local church:

She Gave Everything for Her Church, Will You?
No he doesn't love them .but of course we speak of very different things in the use of the word church.
I`m quite sure your aware of that.
Anyway.. Iv bounced all over the place raising a lot of sub topics.
Topics for a number of new threads.
 
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IT REALLY SAYS

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All churches have some problems. Many churches are in terrible condition. Yet Christ loves them.

The church, and not merely some idealistic image of it, but actual local churches full of messed up people trying to figure it out together is part of His plan.

The NT churches were full of problems, like churches are today. But the solution is not to give up on them. I wrote a blog post a bit ago about the importance of the local church:

She Gave Everything for Her Church, Will You?

What about 501c3 churches? These have the irs which has rules the churches have to follow and Im not talking taxes.. this is why you never see churches getting together and fighting inappropriate content in their towns or against politicains or when the school board teaches sex ed to first graders.... why? Cause they cant, this was set up to silence the churches..... your church has a board of directors because the state (which allows you to be a church) considers your church a corporation.... ask your pastor to proclaim in public setting that Gods laws are above mans laws..... he wont... they wont get together and stand against inappropriate content or strip clubs or back a political christian candidate (get behind and promote in public) these things.... if they do they could loose the 501c3 tax benifits.... they are already tax exempt without it... go and see the rules over 501c3 first.

If gay men want to come into your church and hug and act like a man and a women your church cant stop them... not unless they want the wrath of the irs and loose the tax exemption..... just saying

Note they also have 501c4 but not sure about it...
 
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Luther could not reverse it in his day so he came out of it and reformed it .But he bought so much of it into his re forming that it has essentially merged back in .
Why else when talking of the great harlot church in Rev that she is the mother of harlots..... the reformed churches came out of her....she wants them back too
 
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I'm sorry it has taken me so long to reply. As far as I can tell your main point is here:



Part of the reason that this type of argument is not persuasive for me is that when Paul writes about men's and women's roles in the church he does not give the type of culturally based reasons which you suggest. Look at what he actually writes:


1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

Paul's reasoning is not at all based on the culture or a local situation in Ephesus. Rather it is based on the creation and the fall.
Yes it was because eve was deceived first that Paul says women arent to teach.... this was from the begining and to this day
 
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So, I think this is the part of 1 Cor 8 you are referring to:

1 Cor 8:8 But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.
9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your rights does not become a stumbling block to the weak.

Of course, the rest of the chapter can be read for more context.

I believe the principle in these verses applies to situations where a believer knows something is NOT forbidden, but chooses to abstain to keep someone else from stumbling. We should not make such an issue a cause for division or stumbling. An example today would be a Christian who knows that drinking a small amount of alcohol without getting drunk is not in itself a sin, yet chooses to totally abstain for the sake of others.

I do not believe that women teaching men in the church is this type of issue. The reason is that the Bible specifically prohibits it and gives reasons which are not limited to a local or temporary situation.
Well said
 
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thecolorsblend

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I think it's partly a lack of ability. In the old days, I had the misfortune of attending a congregation a few times which had a "female pastor". It was always touchy-feely nonsense that had nothing to do with much of anything. Her leadership skills left much to be desired. Several men in leadership in the congregation told me that they believed in the concept of women leading... until they ran into the harsh reality of women leading; gossip, back-biting, grudges, exclusion, the whole program. Apparently some days it was like any average DAR meeting. These same types of things happened at other congregations with different women.

In the end, the only conclusion I can come to is that this isn't something women were meant to do. I'm sure some egalitarian out there doesn't appreciate that idea but it's true. God has given women many gifts. But leading in this way simply isn't one of them.
 
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Several men in leadership in the congregation told me that they believed in the concept of women leading... until they ran into the harsh reality of women leading; gossip, back-biting, grudges, exclusion, the whole program. Apparently some days it was like any average DAR meeting. These same types of things happened at other congregations with different women.

I have seen exactly the same in congregations where the entire leadership was exclusively male. These are human problems and are certainly not exclusively male or female.
 
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thecolorsblend

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I have seen exactly the same in congregations where the entire leadership was exclusively male. These are human problems and are certainly not exclusively male or female.
That's nice.
 
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