What does the Baptism of the Spirit look like today?

[Dave L]

If anyone teaches that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not for today when scriptue says it is, they are violating the same principles they hold others to. And probably mean and obsessive as they do so.

You must prove the Baptism came in another way besides the two outpourings or through an apostle's hands. Everything you say ignores this fact. And must adjust to it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You asked what it looked like, not for ultimate proof. The things the 2 I mentioned experienced were proof enough for them. But, for skeptics history has shown that no "proof" will ever be good enough unless it happens directly to them.

There are so many scriptural holes in what you presented its really not worth getting into, especially condidering you don't appear open to considering it, just eager to debate it... Perhaps I'm wrong about that, but it doesn't seem that way on my end... However, I will say this one thing. We cannot take one instance and make that into doctrine, especially when faith and healing are involved. Jesus Himself was limited in His ability to heal and perform miracles in His hometown. Does that mean the "gifts" He carried had diminished or ceased? Hardly.

Here is the fascinating thing to me, at the end of the day, I've given 2 awesome testimonies of God healing an autoimmune disease and setting someone free from addiction, yet the initial response of Cessationists or those that lean toward it is not to celebrate and give glory to God, but to doubt it happened or debate the manner in which it happened. How very sad.

Further, if you were to take just that idea of skeptism and debating God healing someone (as in the above paragraph) and compare it to the Gospels what do you find? And, how does Jesus react in those situations? (hint: Jesus was not pleased).

This is the point of the thread I created earlier. The heart and fruit behind denying the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not glorifying to God. It is not in line with the gospels or the character and nature of Jesus.

Well, I am not saying your experience was genuine or not. I was not there to witness the event myself, and or to see what your church believes and does.

To get to the truth: I believe my opponent on a topic should try to address the topic with Scripture. While there are exceptions to this (they are busy, and or they feel guided by God not to talk to the other person), I believe there is no hindrance in their way, they should explain the points I bring forth with Scripture.

Also, I am curious: What is your interpretation on the rules on tongues in 1 Corinthians 14?

 

[topher694]

Well, I am not saying your experience was genuine or not. I was not there to witness the event myself, and or to see what your church believes and does.

For my perspective, if you are not willing to explain the strong points I made with Scripture, then that means that I have won the debate. In most cases, when somebody brings up a wrong theology and they use Scripture to support their view, I try to explain what the text they quoted is really saying using the context. In this case, you are not explaining how my points could be explained away with a rational logical explanation using God's Word. This for me, speaks volumes.

Also, does your church follow the rules in 1 Corinthians 14 in regards to tongues?

I am the pastor of my church. We follow all biblical rules when it comes to Tongues and all of the gifts of the Spirit, although I'm sure many here that don't ever flow in them would argue that we are doing it wrong.

I've written books and manuals on this topic so I have plenty of experience to engage in a scriptural debate, but I have yet to find such a debate on this topic of any value here... It's not worth the time and effort. I thought you were looking for recent examples, so I gave some.

I really don't care if you think you've "won" the debate or not. In fact such a mindset only shows me that the heart behind it was wrong to begin with.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am the pastor of my church. We follow all biblical rules when it comes to Tongues and all of the gifts of the Spirit, although I'm sure many here that don't ever flow in them would argue that we are doing it wrong.

I've written books and manuals on this topic so I have plenty of experience to engage in a scriptural debate, but I have yet to find such a debate on this topic of any value here... It's not worth the time and effort. I thought you were looking for recent examples, so I gave some.

I really don't care if you think you've "won" the debate or not. In fact such a mindset only shows me that the heart behind it was wrong to begin with.

From my perspective: I care about the truth and it’s victory. So I will rejoice in what I believe is the truth of God’s Word. If I am wrong, I would pray that somebody would show me the truth with God's Word so as to light my path.

Anyways, do you agree with me on my questions in regards to 1 Corinthians 14?

 

[topher694]

This really is not about you or me, but the truth of what Scripture says. We cannot make claims for spiritual truth without the Bible backing us up entirely. The points I brought forth need to be explained if what you say is true.

I care about the truth and it’s victory. So I will rejoice in what I believe is the truth of God’s Word. If you think I am in error, you should help me by explaining the points I brought forth with Scripture in return.

Anyways, do you agree with me on my questions in regards to 1 Corinthians 14?

Perhaps you missed my comment on how unfruitful debating this topic is here and how I have no desire, or time, to do so. Is it not possible to respect that?

We have strict order in our services. We mostly do not do tongues and interpretation, rather move directly in prophecy, which Paul said he would rather have happen in 1 Cor 14. But when that happens it is one at a time and spiritually evaluated (usually by me) before it is released... Also directly from 1 Cor 14.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Perhaps you missed my comment on how unfruitful debating this topic is here and how I have no desire, or time, to do so. Is it not possible to respect that?

We have strict order in our services. We mostly do not do tongues and interpretation, rather move directly in prophecy, which Paul said he would rather have happen in 1 Cor 14. But when that happens it is one at a time and spiritually evaluated (usually by me) before it is released... Also directly from 1 Cor 14.

Sorry, I don't mean to be skeptical, but we are living in the last days. So you answered "yes" to question #2.

#1. Does your church speak in tongues only by 2 or 3 at most? (Unknown).
#2. Do those who speak in tongues each speak individually in turn and not all at the same time? "Yes."
#3. If there is no interpreter, do those who speak in tongues keep silent? (Unknown).​

Would you answer "yes" to question #1, and question #2, as well?
I have a few more questions (if you don't mind).

#4. (a) Is anybody off the street allowed to come into your church and just speak tongues?
(b) Or do only trusted people you know who truly have the gift from the Spirit speak in tongues?

#5. If somebody off the street is allowed to speak in tongues and they are not sincere or true in truly speaking tongues and they are just faking it, were you able to tell and what would your reply be to the rest of your church for this person's fake message?

#6. Were any of your presentations with somebody speaking in tongues ever recorded?

#7. If tongue speakings were recorded in your church, would you be willing to have this language analyzed to see it is is a genuine language of some kind?


As for prophecy:

Mark Taylor is an example of somebody who has made false prophecies before. You can check that out here at Christian Forums.

Would you have any books about your experiences or the experiences of your church that you recommend alongside the Bible? Do you believe that Christians need to have visions, dreams, etc. that you feel needs to be studied just as much as the Bible? Do you believe Colton Burpo died and went to Heaven? Do you believe his vision was true? What about Mary K. Baxter and her divine revelation of Hell? Do you believe that what she had was a genuine vision from God?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If anyone teaches that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not for today when scriptue says it is, they are violating the same principles they hold others to. And probably mean and obsessive as they do so.

I believe the baptism of the Spirit still takes place today, but it does not look the same as it did in the early church. Do you lay hands on men, and they speak in tongues as a part of the baptism of the Spirit? (See: Acts of the Apostles 19:6). Is the Pentecost event in Acts chapter 2 something that is repeated in your church? Like tongues of fire, and men who are from other countries are able to understand each other? I believe these things happened, but they are in the past as a part of the early church.

I believe the baptism of the Spirit today is the receiving of the Spirit after one genuinely accepts the gospel, and is broken with a godly sorrow in seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ. They are not set out to justify a sin and still be saved type belief or gospel whereby they believe future sins are forgiven them (Thereby giving them a safety net to sin, or an opportunity to turn God's grace into a license for immorality on some level). I believe that by Spirit baptism today, a believer has the power to overcome grievous sins (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.). They are able to walk after the Spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Galatians 5:16). They are able to truly have the fruits of the Spirit (like: Love, joy, peace, etc.) (Galatians 5:22-23).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Perhaps you missed my comment on how unfruitful debating this topic is here and how I have no desire, or time, to do so. Is it not possible to respect that?

We have strict order in our services. We mostly do not do tongues and interpretation, rather move directly in prophecy, which Paul said he would rather have happen in 1 Cor 14. But when that happens it is one at a time and spiritually evaluated (usually by me) before it is released... Also directly from 1 Cor 14.

Also, while God can heal people directly Himself today, the gift of miracles is not given to any one believer that we know today. No Charismatic can always heal. Yet, the Bible says that they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. This means 100% recovery all the time. No one can do this today, as the apostles could in Acts of the Apostles 5:12-16. "By the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people.....they (believers) brought forth the sick into the streets.....and they were healed every one". (Acts of the Apostles 5:16).

Do you claim that there are believers who exist today who can heal with 100% recovery all the time? If not, then this means that this sign gift (given to believers within the early church) has ceased. So if this gift has ceased, why would the other gifts not cease? Does the Bible talk about this?

 

[Saint JOHN]

still the same when you get it right..Jesus said...
Mark16v17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

etc..acts 2v 38 !!!!!!!!!
acts 2v4...same today..not what man preaches what God through Jesus Christ does....

ALL signs follow a TRUE believer .. not those who dont or follow doctrines of men...

eg many call themselves chistian !!!??? because they accept God is or Jesus is etc..

I accept, believe there is a President in the United States ! does that make me an automatic american citizen !??

why use similar lame logic with ETERNAL LIFE !

 

[Bible Highlighter]

still the same when you get it right..Jesus said...
Mark16v17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

etc..acts 2v 38 !!!!!!!!!
acts 2v4...same today..not what man preaches what God through Jesus Christ does....

ALL signs follow a TRUE believer .. not those who dont or follow doctrines of men...

eg many call themselves chistian !!!??? because they accept God is or Jesus is etc..

I accept, believe there is a President in the United States ! does that make me an automatic american citizen !??

why use similar lame logic with ETERNAL LIFE !

We can see that after the book of Acts, the gifts no longer operated in Paul’s life like they once had. The sign gifts, tongues, prophecy, the gift of healing, etc. were operating all through the Book of Acts, and these gifts are mentioned in the letters that Paul wrote during the Acts period. But when we turn to the letters written after the Book of Acts—the 4 Prison Epistles, and the 3 Pastoral Epistles, we find that the sign gifts either aren’t mentioned at all or we see—as with the gift of healing—that they were no longer operating in Paul’s life. What he could do in Acts of the Apostles 28, he could no longer do in Philippians, or in 1 and 2 Timothy. He could heal all the sick on the island in Acts of the Apostles 28:9, but he couldn’t heal any of his closest co-workers—Timothy, Epaphroditus, Trophimus—after the close of the Book of Acts (See this article here for the full explanation).

While God can heal people directly Himself today, the gift of miracles is not given to any one believer that we know today. No Charismatic can always heal. Yet, the Bible says that they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. This means 100% recovery all the time. No one can do this today, as the apostles could in Acts of the Apostles 5:12-16. "By the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people.....they (believers) brought forth the sick into the streets.....and they were healed every one". (Acts of the Apostles 5:16).

Do you claim that there are believers who exist today who can heal with 100% recovery all the time?

 

[topher694]

Sorry, I don't mean to be skeptical, but we are living in the last days. So you answered "yes" to question #2.

#1. Does your church speak in tongues only by 2 or 3 at most? (Unknown).
#2. Do those who speak in tongues each speak individually in turn and not all at the same time? "Yes."
#3. If there is no interpreter, do those who speak in tongues keep silent? (Unknown).​

Would you answer "yes" to question #1, and question #2, as well?
I have a few more questions (if you don't mind).

#4. (a) Is anybody off the street allowed to come into your church and just speak tongues?
(b) Or do only trusted people you know who truly have the gift from the Spirit speak in tongues?

#5. If somebody off the street is allowed to speak in tongues and they are not sincere or true in truly speaking tongues and they are just faking it, were you able to tell and what would your reply be to the rest of your church for this person's fake message?

#6. Were any of your presentations with somebody speaking in tongues ever recorded?

#7. If tongue speakings were recorded in your church, would you be willing to have this language analyzed to see it is is a genuine language of some kind?


As for prophecy:

Have you had any future prophecies within your church that have ever failed before? Mark Taylor is an example of somebody who has made false prophecies before. You can check that out here at Christian Forums.

Would you have any books about your experiences or the experiences of your church that you recommend alongside the Bible? Do you have visions, dreams, etc. that you feel needs to be studied just as much as the Bible? Do you believe Colton Burpo died and went to Heaven? Do you believe his vision was true? What about Mary K. Baxter and her divine revelation of Hell? Do you believe that what she had was a genuine vision from God?

ok.
1. tongues for interpretation, yes... but we usually skip this
2. yes
3. yes... but this never happens

4a. for interpretation, no
4b. for interpretation, yes

5. yes, it is easy to tell when you flow in the authentic yourself. It has happened once or twice. I do what I call "redeeming" the word and bring it back around to something correct. After that I would bring correction 1 on 1, if that is ignored I would bring more open correction to the congregation.

6. all of our services are recorded, including tongues and prophesy

7. No, I'm too busy as it is. Plus as I said, we usually skip past tongues.

Prophecy:
The nature of personal prophesy is that it is conditional and it is in God's timing. That means if we get a word we have to partner with the word to see it come to pass... we have a part to play. This is all over in the Bible. Prophesy is not a declaration of what will happen in the future, it is a declaration of God's will for the future. So it is not as cut and dry as you make it seem. That being said I have personally witnessed more words that I can count come to pass.

I recommend prophets and personal prophecy by Bill Hamon, also known as the "red book". It is considered the go to source from a man considered to be one of the principle pioneers of the modern prophetic movement. And I know him personally and have seen his character and fruit.

Dreams and visions can be evaluated prophetically.

I don't know any of the people you mentioned, so I can't speak to that.

 

[AbbaLove]

If you teach the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is for today when scripture says it is not, you violate the same principles you hold others to.

"Some believers are prideful theologians -- moreso than born again Believers."

 

[Dave L]

​

"Some believers are prideful theologians -- moreso than born again Believers."

But love of the truth keeps God from sending strong delusion upon those who treat it lightly.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

ok.
1. tongues for interpretation, yes... but we usually skip this
2. yes
3. yes... but this never happens

4a. for interpretation, no
4b. for interpretation, yes

5. yes, it is easy to tell when you flow in the authentic yourself. It has happened once or twice. I do what I call "redeeming" the word and bring it back around to something correct. After that I would bring correction 1 on 1, if that is ignored I would bring more open correction to the congregation.

6. all of our services are recorded, including tongues and prophesy

7. No, I'm too busy as it is. Plus as I said, we usually skip past tongues.

Prophecy:
The nature of personal prophesy is that it is conditional and it is in God's timing. That means if we get a word we have to partner with the word to see it come to pass... we have a part to play. This is all over in the Bible. Prophesy is not a declaration of what will happen in the future, it is a declaration of God's will for the future. So it is not as cut and dry as you make it seem. That being said I have personally witnessed more words that I can count come to pass.

I recommend prophets and personal prophecy by Bill Hamon, also known as the "red book". It is considered the go to source from a man considered to be one of the principle pioneers of the modern prophetic movement. And I know him personally and have seen his character and fruit.

Dreams and visions can be evaluated prophetically.

I don't know any of the people you mentioned, so I can't speak to that.

We now live in the internet age and we can Google about anyone's unbiblical beliefs, failed prophecies, etc. on any popular Christian teacher today. It takes seconds or minutes to know. A person can Google about Colton Burpo and why his vision is not biblical. A person can Google about Mark Taylor's failed prophecies. Again, it takes seconds or minutes to know about this.

I am glad you gave me a name that I can look up (i.e. Bill Hamon). Within a matter of seconds, I found out what he believes that is unbiblical, and I was able to see what failed prophecies he made before.

First, Hamon's teaches the “manifest sons of God doctrine,” which teaches that a breed of super-Christians will arise and subdue the earth. I believe this is clearly an unbiblical teaching. Manifest sons of God doctrine comes from the Latter Rain movement. Just Google why the "Latter Rain Movement" is not biblical. One problem as to why I believe it is not biblical is because it promises revival of the church (in some kind of super breed Christian take over of nations), when in reality the Bible actually predicts that there is going to be apostasy in the church (2 Timothy 3:1-9), and it predicts that God's people in the End Times will be persecuted and killed by the anti-christ (Revelation 20:4).

Second, I believe Bill made several failed prophecies, as well.

#1. Bill Hamon's 1997 prophecy:
Crossing into Canaan. Excerpts from an article by Dr. Bill Hamon God is decreeing in 1997 the present Joshua Generation will have their Jordan miracle, as the older Moses generation had their Red Sea miracle... God rolling back the waters of the Jordan River caused the "ites" of Canaan to have respect and fear of God's Israeli people. When they "heard that the Lord had dried up the waters of the Jordan from before the children of Israel until Israel had crossed over, that their spirit melted; and there was no spirit in them any longer because of the children of Israel." Josh. 5: 1 God is going to start working such supernatural miracles for his people, that the demons and the worldly people will melt with fear. A wholesome respect for God and His Church is going to start in 1997.

However, did this 1997 prophecy come to pass? No.
Has anyone seen demons and the world melting with fear at what is going on in the "Church?" No, and neither do we see the world having more respect for the Church either, in fact we see just the opposite, with tighter legislation and curtailment of rights we have enjoyed for eons being stripped away, month after month.

#2. 1999 Y2K Prophecy:
The Word of the Lord for 1999
Excerpt from the message delivered by Dr. Bill Hamon on December 31, 1998 The Church Aligned in 1999 To Arise and Shine, In God's Appointed Time.
Cindy Jacobs (of Generals of Intercession in Colorado Springs, CO) and I were talking earlier tonight. What we sense is that we're coming into the Joseph times. When Joseph saw and perceived by the Spirit what was coming to Egypt, he made proper preparation for it. There were seven years of plenty and then there were seven years of famine. We feel like the seven years of plenty will be condensed into 1999 and then the year 2000 will be like the seven years of famine. We sense that as far as Y2K is concerned, there will be some blackouts/brownouts in some areas. There will be shakeups in some areas, especially big cities. But we believe that God is going to show the prophets where, how, and what is going to happen. We feel that it is wise to make some preparation. . . .

Did this prophecy come to pass? No.
Nothing happened that was major or disastrous as a result of Y2K.

There are other failed prophecies by Bill, but these two should suffice to prove that he is not a true prophet of God.

Deuteronomy 18 talks about how if a prophet's words were not to come to pass, they were to be stoned according to the Old Covenant.

20 "But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." (Deuteronomy 18:20-22).​

So if Bill was living in the Old Testament times (under the Old Covenant), he would have been stoned to death for his prophecies in failing to come to pass. Granted, I would not want this to happen to Bill. We are not under the Old Covenant anymore, but a New Covenant, but the point here is that God did not take lightly to those who fail to make accurate predictions in His name.


Source used for two paragraphs within this post:
Bill Hamon - Failed prophecies.

 

[topher694]

We are without excuse today in not knowing. We now live in the internet age and we can Google about anyone's unbiblical beliefs, failed prophecies, etc. on any popular Christian teacher today. I have given you a link even to look up the failed prophecies about Mark Taylor. You can know about him in a matter of seconds by looking at the information I provided on him, and or you can simply Google about his failed prophecies. It takes seconds or minutes to know. You can Google about Colton Burpo and why his vision is not biblical. Again, it takes seconds or minutes to know about this. So I don't understand why you would say, "I don't know about them." ?

I am glad you gave me a name that I can look up (i.e. Bill Hamon). Within a matter of seconds, I found out what he believes that is unbiblical, and I was able to see what failed prophecies he made before.

First, Hamon's teaches the “manifest sons of God doctrine,” which teaches that a breed of super-Christians will arise and subdue the earth. This is clearly an unbiblical teaching. Manifest sons of God doctrine comes from the Latter Rain movement. Just Google why the "Latter Rain Movement" is not biblical. One problem as to why it is not biblical is because it promises revival of the church (in some kind of super breed Christian take over of nations), when in reality the Bible actually predicts that there is going to be apostasy in the church (2 Timothy 3:1-9), and it predicts that God's people in the End Times will be persecuted and killed by the anti-christ (Revelation 20:4).

Second, Bill made several failed prophecies, as well.

#1. Bill Hamon's 1997 prophecy:
Crossing into Canaan. Excerpts from an article by Dr. Bill Hamon God is decreeing in 1997 the present Joshua Generation will have their Jordan miracle, as the older Moses generation had their Red Sea miracle... God rolling back the waters of the Jordan River caused the "ites" of Canaan to have respect and fear of God's Israeli people. When they "heard that the Lord had dried up the waters of the Jordan from before the children of Israel until Israel had crossed over, that their spirit melted; and there was no spirit in them any longer because of the children of Israel." Josh. 5: 1 God is going to start working such supernatural miracles for his people, that the demons and the worldly people will melt with fear. A wholesome respect for God and His Church is going to start in 1997.

However, did this 1997 prophecy come to pass? No.
Has anyone seen demons and the world melting with fear at what is going on in the "Church?" No, and neither do we see the world having more respect for the Church either, in fact we see just the opposite, with tighter legislation and curtailment of rights we have enjoyed for eons being stripped away, month after month.

#2. 1999 Y2K Prophecy:
The Word of the Lord for 1999
Excerpt from the message delivered by Dr. Bill Hamon on December 31, 1998 The Church Aligned in 1999 To Arise and Shine, In God's Appointed Time.
Cindy Jacobs (of Generals of Intercession in Colorado Springs, CO) and I were talking earlier tonight. What we sense is that we're coming into the Joseph times. When Joseph saw and perceived by the Spirit what was coming to Egypt, he made proper preparation for it. There were seven years of plenty and then there were seven years of famine. We feel like the seven years of plenty will be condensed into 1999 and then the year 2000 will be like the seven years of famine. We sense that as far as Y2K is concerned, there will be some blackouts/brownouts in some areas. There will be shakeups in some areas, especially big cities. But we believe that God is going to show the prophets where, how, and what is going to happen. We feel that it is wise to make some preparation. . . .

Did this prophecy come to pass? No.
Nothing happened that was major or disastrous as a result of Y2K.

There are other failed prophecies by Bill, but these two should suffice to prove that he is not a true prophet of God.

Deuteronomy 18 talks about how if a prophet's words were not to come to pass, they were to be stoned according to the Old Covenant.

20 "But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." (Deuteronomy 18:20-22).​

So if Bill was living in the Old Testament times (under the Old Covenant), he would have been stoned to death for his prophecies in failing to come to pass. Granted, we are not under the Old Covenant anymore, but a New Covenant, but the point here is that God did not take lightly to those who fail to make accurate predictions in His name. It means, they are not really speaking for God.


Source used for two paragraphs within this post:
Bill Hamon - Failed prophecies.

I see, you believe everything you read on the internet, got it.

This is just as I said in the beginning, you're not in it for answers or a debate, just to be right... which is the wrong motivation. Bill Hamon has more ministry fruit than either of us do in our little toes. He is a man of the highest character and integrity, and I speak to that because I know him personally. I don't know those other people personally and I am under no obligation to google anyone because you dropped a name. Personally, I give ministers more due diligence than to just google their name and believe everything I see without question. That's irresponsible.

I have been very patient and specific about my desire not to debate the details of this and you have been extremely dismissive and disrespectful of that, and frankly, anyone you seem to disagree with.

I've got a job to do, actually helping real life people, I'm not going to waste my time doing research YOU decide I should do. I've wasted enough time with this. Against my instincts, I gave you the benefit of the doubt, that was my mistake. See my signature for answers to any further questions you might have.

 

[ViaCrucis]

While there is no denying that the Holy Spirit baptism took place in Acts 2, and in Acts 10 with signs following, the question remains is: What does Baptism of the Spirit look like today?

Have things changed?
Can we see a change in Scripture?

The only two instances recorded in Scripture where we find baptism with the Holy Spirit connected with them are those two cases as recorded in the 2nd and 10th chapters of the Acts.

As such I simply don't see how describing baptism with the Holy Spirit as an individual experience carries biblical weight.

We frequently see the Apostles lay on hands, and through this God acted to give the Holy Spirit (this is the basis for the historic Christian practice of Chrismation), but the laying on of hands is never called "baptism with the Holy Spirit". "Baptism with the Holy Spirit" is only mentioned in reference to the general outpouring of the Spirit on Pentecost, and by way of a sign that the Gentiles were to be included in the ecclesiastical mission, on the household of Cornelius.

That is, baptism with the Holy Spirit is not an individual experience, or the individual receiving of the Spirit; it is rather the general outpouring of the Spirit which happened two thousand years ago on Pentecost. As such all who are joined to Christ and have Christ share in the blessings of the Holy Spirit who was poured out on all flesh as prophesied by the Prophet Joel when he wrote, "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh"; and spoken of by St. John the Baptist when he said, "the One who comes after me ... will baptize you with the Holy Spirit..."


-CryptoLutheran

 

[topher694]

There was a group of people that tried to scripturally dismiss and attack what Jesus did for individuals and imparted to individuals. It didn't go well for them.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

While I am not claiming that you may not be right, I lean heavily towards the view that it is more likely that miraculous sign gifts have ceased.

I seem to remember a passage about Jesus not performing many miracles in a certain area, because they had little faith. Knowing the way our society is trending I'm inclined to think the same thing in our situation. The cessationist will always see what he believes.

then that means that I have won the debate.

That's a terrible mindset. Not being convinced of the other person's view doesn't make you a winner, any more than he is a winner for not being convinced of yours.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I seem to remember a passage about Jesus not performing many miracles in a certain area, because they had little faith. Knowing the way our society is trending I'm inclined to think the same thing in our situation. The cessationist will always see what he believes.

But many claim that they are working by miracles. The problem is that they believe in the unbiblical "Manifest Sons of God doctrine" from the "Latter Day Rain Movement." This doctrine basically says that one day that a super breed of Christians will rise up to conquer the nations before Christ returns. Yet, Scripture says there is not going to be a revival in the last days, but men will depart from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1). In the last days (which I believe is today), many will have a form of godliness, but they will deny the power thereof. They will be lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God (2 Timothy 3:1-9). Revelation 20:4 says that the saints will be beheaded by the antichrist whereby they will one day live again to reign with Christ in the Millennium.

Also, many have no problem with the Toronto Blessing or those who are connected with it in some way. Some will even deny the Toronto Blessing, but they will endorse others who were connected to that movement in some way. I have seen the videos on the Toronto Blessing and others similar to it. Needless to say it was confusion; But God is not the author of confusion.

Scripture lays it out that the gifts given to the apostles and prophets were temporary as a part of confirming them as true messengers of GOD. This is how it has always been. GOD gave a man of God the ability to work His miracles by his hand, and then there were periods of silence. It happened with both Moses and Elijah. If we are to believe GOD is consistent in the way that He does things, it makes sense that the working of miracles were temporary so as to authenticate the Messenger or Messengers (that they were from GOD).

That's a terrible mindset. Not being convinced of the other person's view doesn't make you a winner, any more than he is a winner for not being convinced of yours.

Again, I believe that in a debate involving a Bible topic, my opponent on the topic should try and address the point I made with Scripture. This is my belief in how a proper discussion should go. If you feel you made this case already, and I have missed it, please refer me to the post #'s.

May God's blessings be upon you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I see, you believe everything you read on the internet, got it.

If you need more sources from other places, I am sure you can find them.
Also, why would people make up stuff about his failed prophecies?
Where are the rebuttals of these kinds of things by his followers or his own ministry team?

This is just as I said in the beginning, you're not in it for answers or a debate, just to be right... which is the wrong motivation.

Being on the side of the truth is not a wrong motivation. To be right or correct is not wrong. In fact, what is the opposite position of being correct or right? It is to be on the position of being wrong or to be in error. So if I understood you correctly, I respectfully disagree with your thinking that a person cannot be motivated based on desiring to defend what is good and correct (if that is what you are saying).

Bill Hamon has more ministry fruit than either of us do in our little toes. He is a man of the highest character and integrity, and I speak to that because I know him personally. I don't know those other people personally and I am under no obligation to google anyone because you dropped a name. Personally, I give ministers more due diligence than to just google their name and believe everything I see without question. That's irresponsible.

There are other men of other religions who are not Christian who love people, and do good works, too. That does not mean they are on the side of the truth. If a person really has made failed prophecies before, we should truly look at that. If not, then it would be irresponsible on our part because we are simply seeing the good that they do and not any of the bad. This in my opinion is just as equally dangerous. Jesus warned us against false prophets in Matthew 7. In the Old Covenant (when it used to be in effect at one time), Deuteronomy talks about if a prophet does not bring to pass what they said, they were to be stoned. That's very serious. While God's people don't stone prophets anymore (seeing we are under a New Covenant), it would be odd to think that GOD changed in regards to us following men of God who constantly made failed prophecies. If these failed prophecies are false accusations, then we need to defend against them. We need to defend the integrity of this man of GOD if they he never made failed prophecies (and people are just trying to falsely accuse him). But why would others make up such detailed things about him? Do we have statements of Bill Hamon denying that he made such prophecies?

We can see Bill Hamon (on the Sid Roth show) whereby he claims to have Heavenly secrets taught to him by Michael the archangel.

At one point in the video, Bill starts speaking in tongues and nobody is there to interpret for him. He is in error according to 1 Corinthians 14.

What is more disturbing is that there are advertisements on the show he is attending that promotes that you can learn to have the full benefits of the Holy Spirit for 35 dollars.

I've got a job to do, actually helping real life people, I'm not going to waste my time doing research YOU decide I should do.

I don't consider looking up a person's name on Google and what they believe as extensive time consuming research. As I stated, it took me a matter of minutes to learn about him. I did not know about this man until you mentioned him, and now I know what he teaches with just a few clicks. It took me a few minutes and not hours or days, my friend.

I've wasted enough time with this. Against my instincts, I gave you the benefit of the doubt, that was my mistake. See my signature for answers to any further questions you might have.

Only the Lord truly knows my heart and mind. I sometimes have a zeal for God. I have no hate, or bitterness towards you personally. I am also not seeking to lift up myself, either (i.e. pride). Let the Lord Jesus get all the glory this day for the truth that is revealed.

In any event, may God bless you today (even if we disagree strongly on this topic). I do honestly care and love you in Christ Jesus. May you please be well.