What does predestination refer to?

TedT · Dec 10, 2021

Clare73 said:
God doesn't need to predestine (elect) to damnation, it comes with election to salvation.

Yes, need it or not...if someone is not elected, chosen, to salvation then they have been chosen ipso facto for reprobation and perdition!

All the thousands of pages of Calvinists trying to prove that leaving some unchosen for salvation when others were chosen to be saved did NOT happen by HIS choice or wilful determination is just so much theo-babble.

If HE chose some to be saved He in fact did determine the reprobation of the others...period.

And that leaves only the oh so holy blasphemy that HE had no reason to choose some for salvation though HE apparently did have a reason NOT to choose others because HE did not like their sin when HE repudiates ALL sin as equally cursed in HIS sight and those chosen to salvation are indeed sinners, just as evil as their reprobate brethren in sin.

TedT · Dec 10, 2021

Clare73 said:
That decision is made by the state in which one eies, in belief or unbelief.

The state in which someone dies is chosen by GOD:
Prov 16:9 A man’s heart plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

Jeremiah 10:23 I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not his own; no one who walks directs his own steps.

James 4:13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business, and make a profit.” 14 You do not even know what will happen tomorrow! What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. 15 Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord is willing, we will live and do this or that.” 16 As it is, you boast in your proud intentions. All such boasting is evil.
If all that we do is directed by GOD and our life is under HIS direction, then, as one commentator has put it: “Only if God wills, do I live another minute. Therefore, the Lord decides when I die.”

What state we are in at the time of our death is HIS choice, obviously, a state chosen for sinners to be either chosen, elected, to be saved from their sinfulness or as passed over for salvation for sinning unforgivably.

To claim we are fulfilling our own plans for our own salvation would seem to be an arrogant evil.

Clare73 · Dec 10, 2021

TedT said:
Yes, need it or not...if someone is not elected, chosen, to salvation then they have been chosen ipso facto for reprobation and perdition!

All the thousands of pages of Calvinists trying to prove that leaving some unchosen for salvation when others were chosen to be saved did NOT happen by HIS choice or wilful determination is just so much theo-babble.

Is that the position of Calvin himself?

If HE chose some to be saved He in fact did determine the reprobation of the others...period.

And that leaves only the oh so holy
blasphemy that HE had no reason to choose some for salvation

Does Paul not locate that choice simply in his sovereign purpose and choice, as with Jacob and Esau (Romans 9:11-12), and not in anything related to them, or to any other sinners, personally (Romans 9:14-18)?

though HE apparently did have a reason NOT to choose others because HE did not like their sin when HE repudiates ALL sin as equally cursed in HIS sight and those chosen to salvation are indeed sinners, just as evil as their reprobate brethren in sin.

That reason being his sovereign purpose in them, as in Jacob, and not Esau, and not being in anything else (Romans 9:11-12), right?. . .according to Paul.

Clare73 · Dec 10, 2021

TedT said:
The state in which someone dies is chosen by GOD:
Prov 16:9 A man’s heart plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

Jeremiah 10:23 I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not his own; no one who walks directs his own steps.

James 4:13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business, and make a profit.” 14 You do not even know what will happen tomorrow! What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. 15 Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord is willing, we will live and do this or that.” 16 As it is, you boast in your proud intentions. All such boasting is evil.
If all that we do is directed by GOD and our life is under HIS direction, then, as one commentator has put it: “Only if God wills, do I live another minute. Therefore, the Lord decides when I die.”

What state we are in at the time of our death is HIS choice, obviously, a state chosen for sinners to be either chosen, elected, to be saved from their sinfulness or as passed over for salvation for sinning unforgivably.

To claim we are fulfilling our own plans for our own salvation would seem to be an arrogant evil.

In context, that was in regard to someone not responding to the gospel the first time he heard it and fear of being being stuck in an irreversible choice.

Sheila Davis · Dec 13, 2021

dms1972 said:
I am coming across different views on this in my reading.

Lutherans seems to say God's predestination refers to getting a preacher.

Another writer says that predestination only refers to believers, and that predestination and election are not the same thing.

Using scripture
25 Bible Verses About Predestination (KJV) - RANKED
It seems all the scriptures that speak of predestination by God for people seems to imply to true believers / Christians as a whole in the New Testament.

God called / predestined the prophets even before they were born _ of Isaiah, Isaiah 49:1-5 _ of Jeremiah, Jeremiah 1:5 _ of John the Baptist, Luke 1:15 _ of Paul, Galatians 1:15 _ Samson, Judges 13:6-7 _ Esau and Jacob _ Genesis 25:23 Of the Old Testament and New.
It seems not only are prophets, disciples or those chosen for the spreading of the Gospel such as pastors, preachers, etc. or for certain tasks are the only ones, but general people have been predestined for salvation and services.
One has to ask why is this, that doesn't seem fair but .... GOD KNEW ALL OF US BEFORE WE WERE EVEN FORMED IN OUR MOTHER'S WOMB. So he knew what our actions would be, what our choices would be. He knew whether we would choose righteousness over unrighteousness _ goodness over evilness. Whether we would be doers and lovers of his Holy Word - whether we would strive to be obedient to him - whether we loved him.
Seems to me both are right - and from my point of view predestination and election are one and the same. But that's why we have so many denominations in the Christian faith.

What did Jesus say: that he chose us, not us him _ that not one that the Father has given him shall he lose.

Clare73 · Dec 13, 2021

Sheila Davis said:
Using scripture
25 Bible Verses About Predestination (KJV) - RANKED
It seems all the scriptures that speak of predestination by God for people seems to imply to true believers / Christians as a whole in the New Testament.

In the case of Esau, the definitive Biblical example of predestination/election?

God called / predestined the prophets even before they were born _ of Isaiah, Isaiahthe 49:1-5 _ of Jeremiah, Jeremiah 1:5 _ of John the Baptist, Luke 1:15 _ of Paul, Galatians 1:15 _ Samson, Judges 13:6-7 _ Esau and Jacob _ Genesis 25:23 Of the Old Testament and New.
It seems not only are prophets, disciples or those chosen for the spreading of the Gospel such as pastors, preachers, etc. or for certain tasks are the only ones, but general people have been predestined for salvation and services.

One has to ask why is this, that doesn't seem fair but .... GOD KNEW ALL OF US BEFORE WE WERE EVEN FORMED IN OUR MOTHER'S WOMB. So he knew what our actions would be, what our choices would be. He knew whether we would choose righteousness over unrighteousness _ goodness over evilness. Whether we would be doers and lovers of his Holy Word - whether we would strive to be obedient to him - whether we loved him.

Actually, this is not how the NT presents the foreknowledge of God.
It does not present God's foreknowledge as him knowing in advance what man is going to do, but rather as God knowing in advance what he is going to do:

"Known to the Lord for ages is his work." (Acts 15:18)

"I foretold the former things long ago, my mouth announced them and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted, and they came to pass." (Isaiah 48:3).
See Acts 2:23; 4:28; Isaiah 37:26, 45:21; Romans 8:29, 11:2; 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Peter 3:17.

God knows in advance what is going to happen not because he looks down the corridors of time and sees what men are going to do.
God know what is going to happen because he has decreed that it shall happen.

That is the meaning of predestination.

Seems to me both are right - and from my point of view predestination and election are one and the same. But that's why we have so many denominations in the Christian faith.

Sheila Davis · Dec 13, 2021

Clare73 said:
In the case of Esau, the definitive Biblical example of predestination/election?

Actually, this is not how the NT presents the foreknowledge of God.
It does not present God's foreknowledge as him knowing in advance what man is going to do, but rather as God knowing in advance what he is going to do:

"Known to the Lord for ages is his work." (Acts 15:18)

"I foretold the former things long ago, my mouth announced them and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted, and they came to pass." (Isaiah 48:3).
See Acts 2:23; 4:28; Isaiah 37:26, 45:21; Romans 8:29, 11:2; 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Peter 3:17.

God knows in advance what is going to happen not because he looks down the corridors of time and sees what men are going to do.
God know what is going to happen because he has decreed that it shall happen.

That is the meaning of predestination.

Thank you for your reply _ seemingly you totally misunderstood what I was saying and that's fine _ maybe I didn't word it correctly. (so I will add the word overall, maybe that would make my statement clearer) God know the choices we will make means he knows **overall** _ he knows we will choose righteousness _ **overall** _ not each and every decision we make, like whether I'm going to drink a cup of coffee or a glass of tea or if I'm will tell a lie today and the truth tomorrow, **Overall** God knows one is not a liar by practice. **Overall** he knows one will fail, many times but overall one's choice is righteousness and repentiveness.

And you jump on matters I didn't even say or refer or believe . "Not because he looks down the corridors of time to see what man is going to do." Where are you coming from with that statement? God knowing us before we were born to me and many means before we even came to this earth in the flesh God knew who we were. and because of that he knows whether we will choose righteously or unrighteous lie and I add Overall.
Actually!??
Again KJV links scriptures on predestination New testament
25 Bible Verses About Predestination (KJV) - RANKED
And as it is with God's given rights you believe as you choose.
And being a Christian / a believer - I know already that God knows his own way - that's common sense and as it is written his ways are not the ways of man.
Thankyou

zoidar · Dec 13, 2021

Clare73 said:
In the case of Esau, the definitive Biblical example of predestination/election?

Actually, this is not how the NT presents the foreknowledge of God.
It does not present God's foreknowledge as him knowing in advance what man is going to do, but rather as God knowing in advance what he is going to do:

"Known to the Lord for ages is his work." (Acts 15:18)

"I foretold the former things long ago, my mouth announced them and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted, and they came to pass." (Isaiah 48:3).
See Acts 2:23; 4:28; Isaiah 37:26, 45:21; Romans 8:29, 11:2; 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Peter 3:17.

God knows in advance what is going to happen not because he looks down the corridors of time and sees what men are going to do.
God know what is going to happen because he has decreed that it shall happen.

That is the meaning of predestination.

Just a question I'm throwing in here: Does God need to decree something for Him to know it in advance without looking into the future? In that case why?

TedT · Dec 13, 2021

Clare73 said:
God know what is going to happen because he has decreed that it shall happen.

That is the meaning of predestination.

I agree, but...rather than thinking that just because a sinner's salvation from sin is only by HIS grace, (undeserved love) and HIS gift of faith to the sinner, I reject that our predestination and election before our sin at the foundation of the word must follow this same set of rules!

Iow, where is it written that our FATES predestined for us at our election, (to heaven or hell) must be by HIS sovereign will and NOT by our free will acceptance or rejection of HIS gospel, just because that is the way our LIVES as sinners are predetermined by HIS sovereign will to end with our redemption or reprobation???

TedT · Dec 13, 2021

Clare73 said:
"Known to the Lord for ages is his work." (Acts 15:18)

zoidar said:
Just a question I'm throwing in here: Does God need to decree something for Him to know it in advance without looking into the future? In that case why?

Clare73 · Dec 13, 2021

Sheila Davis said:
Thank you for your reply _ seemingly you totally misunderstood what I was saying and that's fine _ maybe I didn't word it correctly. (so I will add the word overall, maybe that would make my statement clearer) God know the choices we will make means he knows **overall** _ he knows we will choose righteousness _ **overall** _ not each and every decision we make, like whether I'm going to drink a cup of coffee or a glass of tea or if I'm will tell a lie today and the truth tomorrow, **Overall** God knows one is not a liar by practice. **Overall** he knows one will fail, many times but overall one's choice is righteousness and repentiveness.

However, that has no bearing on the fact that God predestines according to his own purposes, to accomplish his specific purposes.

And you jump on matters I didn't even say or refer or believe . "Not because he looks down the corridors of time to see what man is going to do."
Where are you coming from with that statement?

I was simply stating and addressing a common concept regarding God's foreknowledge.

God knowing us before we were born to me and many means before we even came to this earth in the flesh God knew who we were. and because of that he knows whether we will choose righteously or unrighteous lie and I add Overall.
Actually!??
Again KJV links scriptures on predestination New testament
25 Bible Verses About Predestination (KJV) - RANKED

And as it is with God's given rights you believe as you choose.
And being a Christian / a believer - I know already that God knows his own way - that's common sense and as it is written his ways are not the ways of man.
Thankyou

In sum, predestination is not God acting in response to man's actions or in response to anything.
It is God directly executing the outcomes he decreed before the foundations of the world.
He's not dribbling the ball down the court weaving and dodging to finally accomplishing his goal.
He's standing at the free-throw line sinking them one by one.

Clare73 · Dec 13, 2021

zoidar said:
Just a question I'm throwing in here: Does God need to decree something for Him to know it in advance without looking into the future? In that case why?

God's decrees refer to what he has determined will be done.

zoidar · Dec 13, 2021

Clare73 said:
God's decrees refer to what he has determined will be done.

And if something happens God hasn't determined God can't know about it? Why?

Clare73 · Dec 13, 2021

TedT said:
I agree, but...rather than thinking that just because a sinner's salvation from sin is only by HIS grace, (undeserved love) and HIS gift of faith to the sinner, I reject that our predestination and election before our sin at the foundation of the word must follow this same set of rules!

Iow, where is it written that our FATES predestined for us at our election, (to heaven or hell) must be by HIS sovereign will and NOT by our free will acceptance or rejection of HIS gospel,

You will see the "fates" in Romans 8:28-30,
you will see his purpose in 2 Thessalonians 2:13; Ephesians 1:4-6, Ephesians 1:11--note that he chose us to be holy, not because we made a free-will choice to be holy.

just because that is the way our LIVES as sinners are predetermined by HIS sovereign will to end with our redemption or reprobation???

That one is on you. . .Scripture presents no such thing.

Scripture presents all mankind born in the sin of Adam (Romans 5:18), enemies of God (Romans 5:10), by nature (i.e., birth) objects of wrath (Ephesians 2:3), from which wrath Jesus Christ saves those who believe in him (Romans 5:9).
God doesn't have to "predetermine" anyone to reprobation, all mankind is born condemned already (Romans 5:18), that's a done deal. The question is: where do we go from there?
That is presented in the Scriptures presented above.

Sheila Davis · Dec 13, 2021

Clare73 said:
However, that has no bearing on the fact that God predestines according to his own purposes, to accomplish his specific purposes.

I was simply stating and addressing a common concept regarding God's foreknowledge.

In sum, predestination is not God acting in response to man's actions or in response to anything.
It is God directly executing the outcomes he decreed before the foundations of the world.
He's not dribbling the ball down the court weaving and dodging to finally accomplishing his goal.
He's standing at the free-throw line sinking them one by one.

Wow I guess you didn't read the link I gave to the scriptures where God predestined which was easier than typing them out one by one. And you still haven't understood a thing I wrote because it's saying the same thing you just said.
Scripture also left clear instructions not to debate or argue concerning what is written. Jesus was clear when he said say yay yay or nay nay and go on. Fine _ bye

Clare73 · Dec 13, 2021

TedT said:
Just a question I'm throwing in here: Does God need to decree something for Him to know it in advance without looking into the future? In that case why?

See post #52.

Clare73 · Dec 13, 2021

zoidar said:
And if something happens God hasn't determined God can't know about it? Why?

Nothing happens apart from God's allowing it to happen.

Clare73 · Dec 13, 2021

Sheila Davis said:
Wow I guess you didn't read the link I gave to the scriptures where God predestined which was easier than typing them out one by one. And you still haven't understood a thing I wrote because it's saying the same thing you just said.

Sounds like we are in agreement. . .no debate or argument desired.

zoidar · Dec 14, 2021

Clare73 said:
Nothing happens apart from God's allowing it to happen.

To get back to the first question. You said:

God know what is going to happen because he has decreed that it shall happen.

Sure God knows everything, but why does God need to decree, determine, allow everything that happens for Him to know it in advance?

Clare73 · Dec 14, 2021

zoidar said:
To get back to the first question. You said:

Sure God knows everything, but why does God need to decree, determine, allow everything that happens for Him to know it in advance?

Where does it say he has to?
That is simply the Biblical meaning of "foreknowledge."
When you see anything referring to God's foreknowledge, that is what "foreknowledge" means.

What does predestination refer to?

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