What does man deserve?

Light of the East

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PLEASE! ANSWERS FROM ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS ONLY! THANK YOU!

It seems to me that much of Western theology presents man as "deserving" hell. Is this the Orthodox position also, that for our temporal sins we deserve eternal torment?

My thinking is that we "deserve" to be cured of our sickness, not punished like common criminals, yet the Western mindset appears to put even babies in this category of hardened criminality deserving to suffer forever in the fires of hell.

As I understand it, the Orthodox position I have read here and elsewhere (from Fr. Matt for instance) is that all are returned to God and experience His love, but the wicked will not experience it the same as the just. This seems a far cry from God rolling up His sleeves and with a malicious smile saying, "Now, boy, you gonna git what you got coming to you."

The West seems to have a very truncated view of what God's love is.

I guess my question is this: what exactly does man got coming to him?

Is it loving concern of a father for a desperately sick child, or just a beatin'?
 
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Hermit76

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Many are called few are chosen (Matt 22:14). Billions of ants have come and gone. The dinosaurs once shook the earth with their comings and goings. They returned to dust. Perhaps people ought to try to find out how to help God today, if they are looking for a righteous person's reward.

While touring Israel I visited an Greek Orthodox monastery. Someone offered me some refreshments. One of the monks knew English. I sat down at a table and he was asking me about life in America. He did not seem to be of a different mind set that people in the west. I should have been asking him about life in Israel, but was too selfish at the time.

Do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will take care of itself (Matthew 6:34). There are troubles coming and troubles have past. Now is where I must be.

The OP asked that this thread be limited to Orthodox responses. As you can imagine a Faith-Specific Question can cause much discord if answered by those who are unfamiliar with our teachings. I think we would want to avoid that.
 
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Hermit76

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PLEASE! ANSWERS FROM ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS ONLY! THANK YOU!

It seems to me that much of Western theology presents man as "deserving" hell. Is this the Orthodox position also, that for our temporal sins we deserve eternal torment?

My thinking is that we "deserve" to be cured of our sickness, not punished like common criminals, yet the Western mindset appears to put even babies in this category of hardened criminality deserving to suffer forever in the fires of hell.

As I understand it, the Orthodox position I have read here and elsewhere (from Fr. Matt for instance) is that all are returned to God and experience His love, but the wicked will not experience it the same as the just. This seems a far cry from God rolling up His sleeves and with a malicious smile saying, "Now, boy, you gonna git what you got coming to you."

The West seems to have a very truncated view of what God's love is.

I guess my question is this: what exactly does man got coming to him?

Is it loving concern of a father for a desperately sick child, or just a beatin'?

In my very first Diving Liturgy Father talked about this very thing. When you gave the image of God rolling up His sleeves (to beat us), I winced and got sick to my stomach. I spent the entirety of my life thinking that God was going to beat the hell out of me. Truth be told I despised God because I could never please Him. Then Father Freeman told me that this wasn't God at all. It was probably my projection of my earthly father into the role of God. He was right. I have come to find out through Orthodoxy that my life is not about deserving or not deserving. It is about love. God loves me. There's nothing else to be said. There is a narrative that goes along with this that includes much more, but this is the foundation. God is love.
 
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ArmyMatt

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PLEASE! ANSWERS FROM ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS ONLY! THANK YOU!

It seems to me that much of Western theology presents man as "deserving" hell. Is this the Orthodox position also, that for our temporal sins we deserve eternal torment?

My thinking is that we "deserve" to be cured of our sickness, not punished like common criminals, yet the Western mindset appears to put even babies in this category of hardened criminality deserving to suffer forever in the fires of hell.

As I understand it, the Orthodox position I have read here and elsewhere (from Fr. Matt for instance) is that all are returned to God and experience His love, but the wicked will not experience it the same as the just. This seems a far cry from God rolling up His sleeves and with a malicious smile saying, "Now, boy, you gonna git what you got coming to you."

The West seems to have a very truncated view of what God's love is.

I guess my question is this: what exactly does man got coming to him?

Is it loving concern of a father for a desperately sick child, or just a beatin'?

it's the loving Father, which if the child wants to stay sick, the love feels like a beatin'.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Many are called few are chosen (Matt 22:14). Billions of ants have come and gone. The dinosaurs once shook the earth with their comings and goings. They returned to dust. Perhaps people ought to try to find out how to help God today, if they are looking for a righteous person's reward.

While touring Israel I visited an Greek Orthodox monastery. Someone offered me some refreshments. One of the monks knew English. I sat down at a table and he was asking me about life in America. He did not seem to be of a different mind set that people in the west. I should have been asking him about life in Israel, but was too selfish at the time.

Do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will take care of itself (Matthew 6:34). There are troubles coming and troubles have past. Now is where I must be.

this thread was asked to be answered by the Orthodox.
 
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ttcmacro

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This is a great question, and I look forward to reading the responses to it.

When I ask my evangelical friends why it would be fair for someone to go to hell who had never heard the gospel, the response I get is "well we all deserve hell anyways, so it isn't unfair for them to be sent there." It always shocks me how casually people make that statement, as they are clearly not thinking through the implications of it. Then of course, that leads to the question, "why does God make people anyways?" if they are simply destined for hell?

However, I think Christ came to give us a cure for the sickness humans face in this world. I think this is clearly what Jesus was doing in the gospels, and what he continues to do today through his Church.
 
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FenderTL5

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excerpted from 'The Orthodox Way' by Bishop Kallistos Ware


"The effects of man's fall were both physical and moral. On the physical level human beings became subject to pain and disease, to the debility and bodily disintegration of old age. Woman's joy in bringing forth new life became mixed with the pangs of childbirth (Gen. 3:16). None of this was part of God's initial plan for humanity. In consequence of the fall, men and women also became subject to the separation of soul and body in physical death. Yet physical death should be seen, not primarily as a punishment, but as a means of release provided by a loving God. In his mercy God did not wish men to go on living indefinitely in a fallen world, caught for ever in the vicious circle of their own devising; and so he provided a way of escape. For death is not the end of life but the beginning of its renewal. We look, beyond physical death, to the future reunion of body and soul at the general resurrection on the Last Day. In separating our body and soul at death, therefore, God is acting like the potter: when the vessel upon his wheel has become marred and twisted, he breaks the clay in pieces so as to fashion it anew (compare Jer. 18:1- 6). This is emphasised in the Orthodox funeral service:

Of old thou hast created me from nothing, And honoured me with thy divine image; But when I disobeyed thy commandment, Thou hast returned me to the earth whence I was taken.
Lead me back again to thy likeness, Refashioning my ancient beauty."
 
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~Anastasia~

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I've never once heard a comment from any Orthodox priest, teacher, Saint, or father concerning what man "deserves".

Honestly, it was so much a part of my evangelical Protestant narrative that I've wondered this myself, and haven't gotten that out of my thinking yet. But it's not something Orthodoxy even seems to address.

It makes sense in a medical model of sin to not have that kind of narrative. Do we blame our beloved child when he inevitably gets sick and say that he obviously "deserves to die" because he dares get sick? Our lives on earth are not much different. Yes, we ARE guilty of sin, but did we really have the choice to avoid sin completely all our lives? I'm not speaking for Orthodoxy here - more asking the question. I can remember distinctly as a very young child deciding to commit a particular sin (I stole a raw peanut from a grocery bin because my mother wouldn't buy me any - and I hid the taking so I knew it was wrong) ... but the thought wasn't even in me that I could choose NOT to do it.

What I do believe is that God doesn't think of us like that. He is grieved by our sin, and our damaged state, and in love wants to restore us. Isn't that how we understand a loving parent? The offended God who must punish to assuage his anger is projecting a human deficiency onto God. How can a God Who is perfect, eternal, alone self-existent - possibly be damaged in His dignity by a mere creation such that He NEEDS to assuage Himself upon it?

I deal with enough insulting teenagers to realize that to drop into anger and desire to "get them back" is just me sinking to their level, playing a game, so I simply refuse to do it. I think we devalue God by projecting such passions onto Him.

Sorry. Rambling. It just doesn't seem to be a thing Orthodoxy even considers. Perhaps because rather than looking at it from the human perspective of what we might "deserve" (no, I don't think we "deserve" God's mercy, btw) - I think we base it rather off the character of God and what He desires for our sakes?
 
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Light of the East

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it's the loving Father, which if the child wants to stay sick, the love feels like a beatin'.

Yes, Father, you have indicated this in many posts and answers you have given. The wicked the love of God feels like hatred and torment.

But that really was not my question. Western theology seems to present the idea that we deserve a beatin' just because of who we are. This is what I take issue with. I will have more later when my 90 MPH day settles down and the dust goes away. Very busy for an old retired guy.

My initial sense, which I want to draw out in a paper, is that it is the Augustinian view of man as "totally depraved" and a "massa damnata" which gives rise to the idea that we deserve only wrath.
 
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I've never once heard a comment from any Orthodox priest, teacher, Saint, or father concerning what man "deserves".

Honestly, it was so much a part of my evangelical Protestant narrative that I've wondered this myself, and haven't gotten that out of my thinking yet. But it's not something Orthodoxy even seems to address.

It makes sense in a medical model of sin to not have that kind of narrative. Do we blame our beloved child when he inevitably gets sick and say that he obviously "deserves to die" because he dares get sick? Our lives on earth are not much different. Yes, we ARE guilty of sin, but did we really have the choice to avoid sin completely all our lives? I'm not speaking for Orthodoxy here - more asking the question. I can remember distinctly as a very young child deciding to commit a particular sin (I stole a raw peanut from a grocery bin because my mother wouldn't buy me any - and I hid the taking so I knew it was wrong) ... but the thought wasn't even in me that I could choose NOT to do it.

What I do believe is that God doesn't think of us like that. He is grieved by our sin, and our damaged state, and in love wants to restore us. Isn't that how we understand a loving parent? The offended God who must punish to assuage his anger is projecting a human deficiency onto God. How can a God Who is perfect, eternal, alone self-existent - possibly be damaged in His dignity by a mere creation such that He NEEDS to assuage Himself upon it?

I deal with enough insulting teenagers to realize that to drop into anger and desire to "get them back" is just me sinking to their level, playing a game, so I simply refuse to do it. I think we devalue God by projecting such passions onto Him.

Sorry. Rambling. It just doesn't seem to be a thing Orthodoxy even considers. Perhaps because rather than looking at it from the human perspective of what we might "deserve" (no, I don't think we "deserve" God's mercy, btw) - I think we base it rather off the character of God and what He desires for our sakes?

Very close to my thinking on the issue. Western theology seems to either ignore the character of God, the ontological fact that God is love and therefore can only act within those boundaries, or else they unconsciously refashion God into their own idea of what God should be like, which is to say that they see God as they see themselves. A vengeful God is really a projection of our own desires for revenge upon God, who as you said is perfect, self-existent, and eternal.

My problem, as you stated also, is that this narrative is so pervasive in Western thinking that it affects my ability to see God as anything other than constant mad/disappointed with me and me as being this Lutheran sort of "piece of dung" that God couldn't possibly want to do anything other than punish. Yet it is not punishment He wishes to give, but as you say - medicine!

Honestly, I am so "not-Catholic" in my thinking anymore that I really need to pray harder for the door out of here to open for me. I find myself now arguing everything with Catholic friends and taking distinctly Orthodox cosmological and theological views.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Yes, Father, you have indicated this in many posts and answers you have given. The wicked the love of God feels like hatred and torment.

But that really was not my question. Western theology seems to present the idea that we deserve a beatin' just because of who we are. This is what I take issue with. I will have more later when my 90 MPH day settles down and the dust goes away. Very busy for an old retired guy.

My initial sense, which I want to draw out in a paper, is that it is the Augustinian view of man as "totally depraved" and a "massa damnata" which gives rise to the idea that we deserve only wrath.

any beatin' we deserve is because of what we do, not because of who we are.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Very close to my thinking on the issue. Western theology seems to either ignore the character of God, the ontological fact that God is love and therefore can only act within those boundaries, or else they unconsciously refashion God into their own idea of what God should be like, which is to say that they see God as they see themselves. A vengeful God is really a projection of our own desires for revenge upon God, who as you said is perfect, self-existent, and eternal.

My problem, as you stated also, is that this narrative is so pervasive in Western thinking that it affects my ability to see God as anything other than constant mad/disappointed with me and me as being this Lutheran sort of "piece of dung" that God couldn't possibly want to do anything other than punish. Yet it is not punishment He wishes to give, but as you say - medicine!

Honestly, I am so "not-Catholic" in my thinking anymore that I really need to pray harder for the door out of here to open for me. I find myself now arguing everything with Catholic friends and taking distinctly Orthodox cosmological and theological views.
Well I was mostly giving opinion. It's not really accurate to take what I said as Orthodoxy. It's just my impression of Orthodox thinking compared to western and how I've processed it so far. You'd need someone with more experience to say if it's correct or not.

But as I said, we ARE guilty of our sins. The real issue is that I think God is more focused on healing us than punishing us. So yes, we "deserve" punishment, but again - I think that's a human focus. It is necessary to the degree that we seek repentance. But to project fully onto God as the west does is a tremendous mistake, and in some cases I think forges into outright blasphemy and defamation of God's character, in those doctrines that go so far as to make Him essentially a monster.
 
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Light of the East

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We deserve Hell - no way around that.

Okay. My question is this: do we deserve hell ontologically, that is, by dint of our very being regardless of sins, or do we deserve hell only for what we do? It seems that the thinking I see in the West is that we as human beings deserve nothing at all. The apex of this belief is the idea of Calvinism that God even damns for all eternity "non-elect" babies because they are about the same as little scorpions. Evil, wicked, can do no good, and therefore, deserving of whatever torment they get just for being conceived.

And if we deserve hell, just how much of it do we deserve. The idea of a child that has never heard of Christ going to a place of eternal torment, no matter how light the torment, is repulsive to me, and as Anastasia said, makes God in to monster.

So at what point does our sin warrant eternal punishment? It seems that for the West, it is just the act of being conceived. Again, I think this is rooted in Augustinianism rather than a good understanding of God and His unconditional and all-encompassing love.
 
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ArmyMatt

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we deserve hell because of what we do. by virtue of our birth, we are fallen, corrupt, and will die, and for that every one of us needs a savior. but hell as such is because of our deeds and our refusal to repent of those deeds.
 
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Light of the East

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we deserve hell because of what we do. by virtue of our birth, we are fallen, corrupt, and will die, and for that every one of us needs a savior. but hell as such is because of our deeds and our refusal to repent of those deeds.

So, Father, what I am trying to get at is whether or not we deserve hell just for our conception. Do babies who die in infancy "deserve" hell? This is the feeling I get from Western soteriology.
 
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ArmyMatt

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So, Father, what I am trying to get at is whether or not we deserve hell just for our conception. Do babies who die in infancy "deserve" hell? This is the feeling I get from Western soteriology.

no they don't.
 
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