What does John see reigning with Christ a thousand years? Their souls or their bodies?

[Deade]

[Continued]
Scripture says: 1 Cor. 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

Rev. 1:12-15 "And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters."

It's like trying to witness to SDAs. They also think there will be fleshly bodies without blood. I am not sure how that is supposed to work. What will carry nutrients to the body, antifreeze?

Why does everyone deny what God consists of? John 4:24 "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

1 John 3:2 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

Are you suggesting that Jesus will consist of something different than the heavenly Father?

John 14:9,10 "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, He doeth the works."

John 12:45 "And he that seeth me seeth Him that sent me." I rest my case.

Spirits can walk through walls and doors. God does not need a body. Read John 20:19, 20; Luke 24:36-40. Jesus had a tendency to appear from nothing startling the disciples.

He also generated physical bodies for Himself and two angels (cherubim?) in the Plains of Mamre to talk to Abraham. He is God, He can do anything he wants. They also ate and drank. Jesus suggested we will do the same in the Kingdom. Read Genesis 18:1-8; Luke 22:30; Matthew 26:29. Although God can partake of food and drink, scripture suggests He does not need to. Read Psalms 50:7-13. It seems we can and will produce a body for certain functions in the kingdom, but it does not appear we will be depended on such.

Stop and think about it. If our life force depended on a physical body, would it not be possible to blow up that body with explosives? How would we travel through the universe having to drag along a body? Would it require oxygen and water?

All these words of yours say nothing of what we will be like in the kingdom. Christ will surely not look like a mere man. We even have scripture for that: 1 John 3:2 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

Rev. 1:13-16 "And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength."

If we will be like Him will we not be spirit? John 4:24 "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." I don't know about you, but I expect to be.

Dan. 12:2,3 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."

Looks like we will be shining also just like Jesus!

 

[keras]

There are only two classes of people: The saved and the unbelievers. All those saved will be resurrected during the first resurrection at Christ's return.

This is a direct contradiction of Revelation 20:4

Wow. This is a belief that only you have. I'm not aware of anyone else who would try to say that only "Trib martyrs" will be resurrected at Christ's return and that they will not be raised unto immortality. Wow! You are just completely contradicting 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 here. Unbelievable. Nowhere does scripture say anything about any believers being resurrected in the future with mortal bodies. Are you kidding? That view has no scriptural support whatsoever.

On the contrary, the truth that only those killed for their faith during the 42 month world control of the 'beast', also the 3 1/2 year period of the Great tribulation, will be brought back to life. Mortal life, as Lazarus was.
But over them. their second death, as Lazarus died again too, has no power, as their names are in the Book of Life, so immortality will be theirs.
Martha said: I know Lazarus will rise again on the last day. John 11:24
The 'Last Day', being at the end of the Millennium, the end of God's decreed 7000 year for mankind.

1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is a prophecy about the GWT Judgment; AFTER the Millennium. Proved by how it is only then that Death will be no more.

Revelation 20:1-15 is a straight narrative. It is just people like you who must 'interpret' it. You add things, like every dead Christian will be resurrected at Jesus Return, when Rev 20:5 is as clear as crystal; The rest of the dead do not come to life until the 1000 years has ended.

[Staff Edit]

 

[Deade]

This is a direct contradiction of Revelation 20:4

What about the sixth verse: Rev 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years"

What about the following:
1Co 15:44,45,52 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

And this kind of looks like immediate glorification: 1Jn. 3:2 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

 

[keras]

What about the sixth verse: Rev 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years"

That refers only to the GT martyrs.

What about the following:
1Co 15:44,45,52 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

This is a prophecy about the GWT Judgment; AFTER the Millennium.
When everyone who has ever lived will stand before God and the Book of Life will be opened. Revelation 20:11-15

And this kind of looks like immediate glorification: 1Jn. 3:2 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

Kind of....? Grasping at straws here, aren't you?
When Jesus Returns, all will see Him and only those people who have proved themselves faithful to the end, are those who will be like Him, in their deeds and actions. All the rest will be gone.

[Staff Edit]

Nowhere does scripture teach that anyone will be resurrected with a mortal body in the future.

Yes it does. Revelation 20:6 plainly says that those martyrs brought back to life; may die a second death. But it has no power to hold them, as their names are Written in the Book of Life and they will automatically receive immortality when they stand before God at the GWT Judgment.

passages which say the dead in Christ will be resurrected at Christ's return (1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Thess 4:14-17). All of them will be.

Your quotes never say: 'all'.
In face we know 'all' the righteous people since Abel, await the final Trumpet call and the opening of the Book of Life and their receipt of a Spiritual, immortal body for Eternity.
David and Lazarus 'sleep' until the last day, Acts 13:36, John 11:25

It is quite illogical to think ALL the Christians who have died will be raised at Jesus Return. What about all the faithful righteous people before Jesus came? Will all those millions come to life and live thru the Millennium? Not according to the Bible, only to those who have a confused and wrong belief about what will happen in the end times.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yes it does. Revelation 20:6 plainly says that those martyrs brought back to life; may die a second death. But it has no power to hold them, as their names are Written in the Book of Life and they will automatically receive immortality when they stand before God at the GWT Judgment.

It makes no sense to first say that they "may die a second death" and then say that their names are written in the book of life and will automatically receive immortality. Those two statements completely contradict each other. If they "may die a second death" then there wouldn't be a guarantee of anything for them.

Again, there is no scripture, including Revelation 20:6, which teaches that anyone will be resurrected with a mortal body in the future.

It is quite illogical to think ALL the Christians who have died will be raised at Jesus Return. What about all the faithful righteous people before Jesus came? Will all those millions come to life and live thru the Millennium? Not according to the Bible, only to those who have a confused and wrong belief about what will happen in the end times.

All believers who died from all-time will be raised when He returns because they all belong to Him. Paul said in 1 Cor 15:22-23 that the order of resurrections unto immortality is Christ first and then those who belong to Him at His second coming. Those "faithful righteous people before Jesus came" belong to Him, too.

 

[keras]

It makes no sense to first say that they "may die a second death" and then say that their names are written in the book of life and will automatically receive immortality. Those two statements completely contradict each other. If they "may die a second death" then there wouldn't be a guarantee of anything for them.

What does make no sense, is to ignore the plainly stated Words of the Bible. Revelation 20:4-6

Again, there is no scripture, including Revelation 20:6, which teaches that anyone will be resurrected with a mortal body in the future.

Quite a few were resurrected with mortal bodies in the past, Elisha's landlady's son, the daughter of the Roman Centurion and Lazarus.
Rev 20:4 just says those martyrs will live again, no mention of immortality at that time.
It is false and unbiblical to say there will be a general resurrection of all Christians, when Jesus Returns.

The Trib martyrs 'belong to Christ', THEY will be raised, the rest must await the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium.

 

[Deade]

Deade said:
What about the sixth verse: Rev 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years"

That refers only to the GT martyrs.
No, no, no, all the called of God are raised immortal spirits (spiritual body) at Christ's coming. The GWT Judgment is only for those not called the first round (the wide road).

Deade said:
What about the following:
1Co 15:44,45,52 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

This is a prophecy about the GWT Judgment; AFTER the Millennium.
When everyone who has ever lived will stand before God and the Book of Life will be opened. Revelation 20:11-15
No, it says all the called are either raised from the dead or changed to immortality at His return. See [1Thess. 4:16,17]. The last trump happens before the millennial rule.

Deade said:
And this kind of looks like immediate glorification: 1Jn. 3:2 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

[Staff Edit]
When Jesus Returns, all will see Him and only those people who have proved themselves faithful to the end, are those who will be like Him, in their deeds and actions. All the rest will be gone.
No, it says what it says. We don't become pets or angels, we become the sons of God.
Rom. 8:16,17 "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

 

[keras]

That refers only to the GT martyrs. quote Keras

No, no, no, all the called of God are raised immortal spirits (spiritual body) at Christ's coming. The GWT Judgment is only for those not called the first round (the wide road).

False teaching. NOT 'all' are resurrected when Jesus Returns. Only the Martyrs killed during the GT, as Rev 20:4 clearly says.
It is illogical and unscriptural to believe that all the millions of faithful people since Able will be brought back to life at the Return.

This is a prophecy about the GWT Judgment; AFTER the Millennium.
When everyone who has ever lived will stand before God and the Book of Life will be opened. Revelation 20:11-15 Quote Keras

No, it says all the called are either raised from the dead or changed to immortality at His return. See [1Thess. 4:16,17]. The last trump happens before the millennial rule.

Immortality is not given to anyone before the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium, when the Book of Life is opened.
Last trumpet call, when Jesus Returns? Will trumpets be banned during the Millennium?
The Last Trump, is to call up all the dead to stand before God at the final Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15, 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 Proved by only then is Death no more.

No, it says what it says. We don't become pets or angels, we become the sons of God.

We Christians become the children of the Living God when we go to live in all of the holy Land. Before Jesus Returns.
In the very place the ancient Israelites were rejected. Romans 9:24-26

 

[Donald Joseph]

read Revelation chapter 15...
note who is standing with CHRIST.
(while also taking note of Revelation chapter 7)
same/same

they sing the same song.
all the overcomer's know this song.
i hope many here know this song.

THE ELECTION (are with JESUS) in Rev 20.
they make the first resurrection. (as servants)

souls are never disembodied.
all souls have a body to call home.
(1Cor 15 shows this.....)
we all will utilize 2 bodies.
one is flesh and blood. (one is not)
the other body is spiritual of angelic in nature.
(not terrestrial)

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(adding
new to this forum. (first post)
i am a servant.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

If one says it is their disembodied souls John sees reigning with Christ a thousand years, the same has to be true of anyone before they even die, if the thousand years are meaning in this age, that it is their disembodied souls reigning and not their physical bodies instead.

Premil doesn't have this silly problem. John sees no one reigning as disembodied souls a thousand years. He only initially sees them as disembodied souls, meaning just prior to when the thousand years begin. And once they begin they are no longer souls still without a body, but are souls with a body, an immortal one, as in, they have been bodily resurrected, as in, the first resurrection.

After all, isn't that what a resurrection is, a bodily one? Wasn't that what Christ's resurrection was, a bodily one?

 

[HARK!]

MOD HAT ON

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[Deade]

Staff Edit]
When Jesus Returns, all will see Him and only those people who have proved themselves faithful to the end, are those who will be like Him, in their deeds and actions. All the rest will be gone.
No, it says what it says. We don't become pets or angels, we become the sons of God.
Rom. 8:16,17 "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

Yes, I was speaking only of those resurrected. Most of the mortal people will indeed see Him return. They will call for the rocks to fall on them (Rev. 6:16). Will all be gone? See below.

We Christians become the children of the Living God when we go to live in all of the holy Land. Before Jesus Returns.
In the very place the ancient Israelites were rejected. Romans 9:24-26

No, all people called of God are Christians as they served the same Spirit. They (OT) saints will be resurrected as well as all Christians (see Heb. 11). A remnant of every nation will have a few mortals spared, to be ruled with a rod of iron. Most will be killed in the tribulation.

12,000 Holy Spirit infused from each Israeli Tribe will God fill as mortals into the holy land. The rest of God's called will receive the immortal qualities at Christ's return.

1Cor. 15:51,52 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

 

[FaithWillDo]

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

If one says it is their disembodied souls John sees reigning with Christ a thousand years, the same has to be true of anyone before they even die, if the thousand years are meaning in this age, that it is their disembodied souls reigning and not their physical bodies instead.

[Staff Edit] John sees no one reigning as disembodied souls a thousand years. He only initially sees them as disembodied souls, meaning just prior to when the thousand years begin. And once they begin they are no longer souls still without a body, but are souls with a body, an immortal one, as in, they have been bodily resurrected, as in, the first resurrection.

After all, isn't that what a resurrection is, a bodily one? Wasn't that what Christ's resurrection was, a bodily one?

Dear DavidPT,

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The book of Revelation is written in symbolic language (it was signified to John) and the subject of the book is the unveiling of Christ within a "called and chosen" believer. If you try to understand it as literal and outward, its meaning will elude you.

In the verse you quoted, it applies spiritually (within) to each saved believer. The believer is said to be "beheaded" because they have taken on a new head (Christ) and have become a new creature (the New Man in Christ). These saved believers are not literally beheaded.

The "beast" is a symbol for carnal mankind. All mankind is born with the mark of the beast and cannot be saved. However, after we are "born again" we become a New Man in Christ who is sealed with the seal of God.

Also, the number 1000 is a spiritual symbol. It is understood as 10x10x10. The number 10 is a symbol for the destruction of the flesh (carnal nature) and 3 represents a complete spiritual process. When you combine the two spiritual symbols, you get the number 1000 and it represents the complete spiritual process of the destruction of our carnal nature. In other words, it is the judgment of the Old Man.

This process of judgment occurs within each saved person and starts shortly after they are converted. It is a spiritual process and cannot be seen with human eyes.

John the Baptist, who was a "type" of our Old Man, said this:

John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

This verse is referring to the judgment of the Old Man and the spiritual maturing of the New Man. They happen at the same time while we are still in the flesh.

The judgment of the Old Man starts shortly after the New Man is born. The New Man is born when the believer receives the Latter Rain of the Spirit and is converted. The Latter Rain is also called the Baptism of the Spirit or the second coming of Christ. It is the same event that happened to the apostles on the Day of Pentecost in the upper room.

The judgment of the Old Man continues until he is completely destroyed. But that process of destruction takes time so the Old Man continues to live within us after we are converted. Because of this co-existence of the Old Man (carnal nature) and New Man (Christ's nature), we still sin. But as the Old Man deceases and the New Man matures, we will sin less and less. This spiritual process that occurs within us is what is meant by Rev 20:4 when it says "and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. The New Man in Christ and Christ Himself "reign" over the Old Man until he is destroyed from within us.

The words of Christ are "spirit" and apply "within" us. When Christ comes to us, He comes spiritually (within) to us. Nearly all of the New Testament teachings should be applied spiritually in the same manner. When a person is given the ability to understand and receive the truth of Christ in this manner, the scriptures will open up to them and they will find the treasure of God.

Prov 2:1-5 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

Joe