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What does John see reigning with Christ a thousand years? Their souls or their bodies?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by DavidPT, Apr 17, 2021.

  1. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    If one says it is their disembodied souls John sees reigning with Christ a thousand years, the same has to be true of anyone before they even die, if the thousand years are meaning in this age, that it is their disembodied souls reigning and not their physical bodies instead.

    [Staff Edit] John sees no one reigning as disembodied souls a thousand years. He only initially sees them as disembodied souls, meaning just prior to when the thousand years begin. And once they begin they are no longer souls still without a body, but are souls with a body, an immortal one, as in, they have been bodily resurrected, as in, the first resurrection.

    After all, isn't that what a resurrection is, a bodily one? Wasn't that what Christ's resurrection was, a bodily one?
     
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  2. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    John sees resurrected saints and changed saint reigning with resurrected Jesus.
    1 John 3: 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
    We/Saints will have physical bodies that are just like Lord Jesus has.
     
  3. Eftsoon

    Eftsoon Member

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    Exactly.
    Who [Christ] will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself (Philippians 3:21).

    Consider also that God establishes His kingdom on Earth. There is a renewal and restoration of materiality.
     
  4. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    What Amils refuse to acknowledge and accept, what John is witnessing in Revelation 20:4 is the bodily resurrection of those dead in Christ who rise first. It is only natural that he initially sees them as disembodied souls. Why wouldn't he? Isn't that the state they would be in following death but prior to when they bodily rise in the end of this age? But do they remain in that state once they have resurrected? Only until they live again would they remain in that state. Would he still see them as disembodied souls once they are resurrected, though? Does Revelation 20:4 indicate they live again? Of course it does, right here---and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    When did these disembodied souls live again? Is it not when the first resurrection takes place?

    Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


    What does this fail to make a single mention of? It fails to mention that anyone while still physically alive, not already dead yet, lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years prior to death. It only says that of those who have already died. Only someone that has already died needs to be resurrected in order to live again. Some Amils argue that verse 4 mentions zero about anyone living again, and that it only says lived, not lived again.

    So let me ask this---This is the first resurrection(Revelation 20:5)--is not that referring to this---and they lived(Revelation 20:4)?

    Since when does a resurrection not involve living again? Isn't that the definition of a resurrection, to live again? Or have I been wrong about this this entire time, and that a resurrection doesn't even mean to live again, but means something else altogether?
     
  5. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    Has anyone ever seen a roll cloud? Sky rolled up like a scroll possibly?
     
  6. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Amils believe death and Hades are now defeated. The grave has been conquered. God's people who die go now to be with Jesus. Hades was emptied after the first resurrection. Jesus defeated sin, death, Hades and Satan through his first Advent. The dead in Christ now reign in heaven with Christ.
     
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  7. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Do you reject the fact that Jesus is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5)?
     
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  8. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    You somehow extrapolate two distinct physical future resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+ out of Rev 20. Where in Scripture does it even mention "resurrection days" (plural), pertaining to the end? Nowhere! What Scripture (including Revelation 20) teaches there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years+? Where in Scripture does it mention "judgement days" (plural), in regard to the end? What Scripture corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent, then released for a "little season" to deceive the nations, and then destroy them? There is no other Scripture that teaches this doctrine. Premils force that upon the sacred text. They have absolutely nothing to reinforce their core beliefs. They interpret their opinion of Revelation 20 by their opinion of Revelation 20. This is dangerous. This is one of many reasons why this non-corroborative doctrine should be rejected.
     
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  9. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    The problem is: you fail to see that there are two types of resurrection in Scripture, not one as you allege.

    Jesus taught in John 11:25, saying, “I am the resurrection (anastasis Strong’s 0386), and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."

    Here we have the “first resurrection” mentioned (Christ’s glorious resurrection) that in turn results in a dual resurrection for the believer. To bring a believer from death to life as what we are seeing in this teaching of Christ is resurrection. The physical resurrection of Christ secured both spiritual and physical resurrection for the believer

    Christ’s death, burial and resurrection secured two distinct, yet inextricably linked, resurrections for the believer, not one as the Premillennialists repeatedly assert; the first being a spiritual resurrection – the new birth; the second being a physical resurrection of the just. Significantly, there are many passages in Scripture, which support this biblical supposition. We must therefore keep this though very much in our mind as we examine the allegorical passage before us in Revelation 20:6.

    Jesus said in John 5:24-29, referring to these two different, yet inextricably linked, resurrections, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live (speaking of our spiritual resurrection in Christ). For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life (speaking of the second or physical resurrection); and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

    There are clearly two resurrections here:

    (1) Spiritual
    (2) Physical

    The first highlighted part here is clearly referring to the first resurrection, the spiritual resurrection that comes through having our part in Christ (Revelation 20:6). The terminology “the hour is coming, and now is” is used here and in other places to simply indicate – ‘the time is now upon us’ although it would have an immediate reality for every passing generation. The first resurrection outlined here is a spiritual resurrection pertaining solely to the elect: “the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live,” it relates to the here-and-now. The second relates to all the dead (saved and unsaved), "the hour is coming, in the which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth." It relates to the all-consummating resurrection day. The physical resurrection is therefore not restricted to the elect alone but to “the dead.” It is they in total that hear Christ’s voice, being raised to two different destinations.
     
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  10. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    I too believe the dead in Christ are in heaven until the 2nd coming happens in the end of this age. Numerous Premils believe this as well. But that's not the same as reigning for a thousand years in heaven, whatever that is supposed to look like and mean. Revelation ch 6 has souls depicted as resting not reigning. Revelation 20:4 depicts them reigning, not still resting, therefore Revelation 6 and the 5th seal shows the state they are in upon death up until their bodily resurrection, and that Revelation 20:4 shows the state they are in once they are bodily resurrected, meaning this--and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
     
  11. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Since the first resurrection, death has been defeated. We now reign in heavenly places. That does not stop upon death. Rev 20 shows us that ruling continues after death. We and them are now kings and priests. Kings reign. They are therefore reigning now.
     
  12. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Greek word translated as "lived" in Rev 20:4 is zaō (Strong's G2198) and does not refer to being resurrected but simply is used to refer to someone being alive. The Greek word translated as "lived" in Rev 20:5 (which refers to those who don't live again until after the thousand years) is anazaō (Strong's G326) and that word does refer to living again or being resurrected.

    The question you need to answer as a premil is why the Greek word zaō is used in Rev 20:4 instead of anazaō if Rev 20:4 is supposed to be understood to be saying "and they were bodily resurrected and reigned with Christ a thousand years".

    [Staff Edit]

    Also, Rev 20:6 indicates that having part in the first resurrection is required in order to avoid the second death. What about those who are alive when Christ returns and don't need to be resurrected? How do they avoid the second death since they don't have part in the first resurrection (as you understand it)?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2021
  13. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    What John saw in Rev 20:4 was the souls of the martyrs killed during the 42 month period of the 'beast's' world control. Revelation 13:5-8
    Jesus brings them with Him at His Return and brings them back to life.

    They are NOT yet made immortal, that does not happen until the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium.

    The wrong and unscriptural ideas that some people have of a general resurrection and 'glorified bodies' at the Return and of reigning in heaven now, are all just fables, believed by the gullible, as Paul says in 2 Timothy 4:3-4
     
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  14. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 20:4 says, “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given (bestowed, committed or delivered) unto them.”

    And continues, “I saw the souls (tas psychas) of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

    All the dead saints in view have previously experienced their part in the first resurrection in life through identifying with Christ in the new birth. That is why they are now in heaven reigning after death. Their union and communion with Christ continues. Their power and authority i they await the glorious Second Coming.

    The "rest of the dead" are being compared only to the "dead in Christ" now in heaven in the presence of God, not those that are born again - all those that have experienced the first resurrection (all in heaven and earth).

    The scene that we observe in this symbolic passage is surely a heavenly one. The believers in view are deliberately described as “the souls” proving that we are looking at the great heavenly host of the redeemed of God in disembodied form. As yet they have not received their glorified bodies.

    Revelation 6:9-10 similarly says, closely paralleling the scene portrayed in Revelation 20, I saw under the altar the souls (tas psychas) of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”

    Few would have any difficulty in accepting that Revelation 6:9-10 – the fifth seal – is speaking (1) of the disembodied spirits of the “dead in Christ,” (2) that they are found in heaven and (2) at a time prior to the Second Advent and the day of God’s wrath – the sixth seal. The very next verse of this narrative (6:11) confirms,And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”

    Those who would suggest that “the souls” outlined in Revelation 20:4 are anything other than the same heavenly saints described in Revelation 6:9-10 are sadly mistaken. The Premillennial argument that they are glorified believers reigning over the wicked on earth during a supposed future post-Second Advent millennium is surely unsound?
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2021
  15. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That is exactly what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15. In 1 Cor 15:22-23 he taught that those who belong to Christ will be resurrected at His return and in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 he taught that this will happen at the last trumpet and that is when all of the dead in Christ will be changed and then have immortal bodies. So, the bottom line is that your doctrine contradicts what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 as it relates to the timing of Christ's return and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2021
  16. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Paul never said 'all' those who belong to Christ.
    Rev 20:4 confirms that it is only the Trib martyrs who will be resurrectes when Jesus Returns.
    1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is proved to be a prophecy about the Great White Throne Judgment; AFTER the Millennium. Only then is Death no more.
    But they are not and it is you who is sadly mistaken.
    The souls in Rev 6:9-11, are all the martyrs since Stephen.
    The souls in Rev 20:4 are just the GT martyrs.
     
  17. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this though maybe not in exactly the same way you do.

    Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


    Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
    10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
    11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    There are two groups of martyrs depicted in Revelation 6:9-11.

    A) The first group---the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held


    B) The 2nd group---their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were

    There are also two groups of martyrs depicted in Revelation 20:4.


    C) The first group---them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God


    D) The 2nd group---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

    A) and C) are referring to the same group of martyrs. B) and D) are referring to the same group of martyrs.
    [Staff Edit] D) above can't even happen until the beast ascends out of the pit first. And since A) above would be including martyrs, such as Stephen, well according to John, the beast would have been 'is not' during the time Stephen was martyred, thus would have been in the pit.

    [Staff Edit] . The beast obviously has to ascend out of the pit first, before anyone can be martyred for refusing to worship it, nor it's image, etc. Only in Amil can one think the beast can still be in the pit when someone is martyred for refusing to worship it, for refusing to receive his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. But in reality this could not possibly be true.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2021
  18. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 17:8 states, The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

    This passage seems to strongly suggest that the beast existed prior to the day of John, stating, “the beast that was.” Notwithstanding, the terminology that follows appears slightly contradictory – “is not, and yet is.” One could be tempted to reason: it either is or else it isn’t, notwithstanding, this reading plainly says that it both “is” and “is not.” The import of the reading appears to demonstrate that the beast did exist in John’s day, and in fact, before John’s day, but that it had not fully developed into what it would eventually become. There is a saying in Northern Ireland that appears to explain this reading – ‘He is a big fellow, but a wee jacket fits him’ i.e. ‘he is not as big as he thinks he is’. This appears to be the meaning.

    Revelation 17:11-13 further enlarges, the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.”

    A plain reading of these passages proves that, whatever the beast truly represents, he/it was expressly in existence before the time that John received this symbolic revelation. The beast cannot therefore merely be a last few years end-time phenomenon, as some would have us believe. After all, he existed before John wrote Revelation. We learn through the apostle’s first century testimony that the beast expressly “was” (past tense). In fact, the passage mentions this fact three times (twice in verse 8, and once in verse 11). Therefore, he existed before John. He also existed at the time of John – who said of his day, the beast “is” (present tense). John then explained that the beast would continue after his day, saying it “shall” be (future tense). In fact, Scripture tells us that the beast, and the false prophet, will only finally be destroyed at the all-consummating second coming of the Lord, where they will be “cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone” (Revelation 19:20). Why would this world system be destroyed at Christ’s coming and then re-emerge in a future millennium as the sand of the sea?

    Having said all this, the terminology that follows is strange and appears contradictory, saying, “is not, and yet is.” One could naturally be tempted to reason: the beast either is or else it isn’t, although, this reading plainly says that the beast both “is” and “is not” at the same time. Whilst the import of the reading indicates that the beast existed in John’s day, it would seem to suggest that it did so in a restrained or restricted manner. How else can we marry the two facts that the beast “is” and “is not” at the same time. The system represented by the beast must have been around in John’s day, albeit in a curtailed manner – a bit like a prisoner that has full movement within a prison, although, he is restricted to particular areas at given times and must continually abide by the careful rules and guidelines that govern his movements within the penitentiary. He has freedom – to a degree, but in another hand he is not free to do as he wishes. The bottom line is: the prisoner would be viewed by every sane observer as bound.

    The beast “was” because Satan and his kingdom operated long before Christ ever invaded his territory at the first Advent. He is deemed “is not” because, through Christ's successful completion of His Father’s assignment on earth He roundly defeated Satan in his own backyard and spiritually spoiled his goods and influence. Christ instigated the great triumphant global advance upon the kingdom of darkness. This has inflicted great injury and damage upon the antichrist spirit for near 2,000 years. Christ went forth conquering and to conquer through the successful spread of the Gospel to the nations. The fact is the gates of hell can never prevail against the Church of Jesus Christ.

    The beast “is not” because Satan no longer exercises complete unchallenged control over the nations as he once did before the cross. Revelation 13:1-4 shows that at some stage in history one of the beast’s heads were “wounded” thus incapacitating this evil ogre. This can only refer to the cross and Christ’s great victory over the kingdom of darkness. This transaction placed chains upon the rebellious principalities and powers which remain until Satan’s little season.

    The beast “is” (at the time of John's writing) because even though Christ spiritual bound him at the cross, he was allowed to continue to operate for a prescribed period, albeit under very definite limits which God has divinely set. These cannot be penetrated.
     
  19. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    The exception is told to us in Rev 20:4 ONLY the Trib martyrs will be resurrected at Jesus' Return. As David PT shows so well.

    But as you believe Jesus Returns at the GWT Judgment, then yes: ALL the dead in Christ will be raised immortal; their names found in the Book of Life.
    Rev 20:4 does not require 'interpretation', It PLAINLY states that only the Trib martyrs will be brought back to life. Which does not mean immortality.
    What Paul prophesies in 1 Thess 4:14-16, is not that everyone dead, who were believers, will be raised at the Return.
    As Revelation 20:5 says: The rest of the dead do not come to life until the thousand years have ended.
     
  20. Deade

    Deade Called of God Angels Team Supporter

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    There are only two classes of people: The saved and the unbelievers. All those saved will be resurrected during the first resurrection at Christ's return. There is nothing immortal about man's makeup. We are dust and we will return to dust unless we take ahold of God's promise for immortality. We can call ourselves saved but we still need God to keep His promise of a resurrection to immortality.

    Where the fire is not quenched and the worm dieth not. That is just a memorial, God is not going to make an immortal maggot, get real folks.

    Now for Rev. 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

    The last "are" in that sentence was added by translators for ease of reading. You could read "where the beast and false profit were cast." What happens when you toss a live person into fire, they die! Even Satan will not be tormented forever.

    God is in the process of removing evil from the universe. God is a God of love. If He allowed the evil being to continue anywhere forever, that would be most unkind to them. Would not a God of love let anyone, that couldn't quite cut with Him, be destroyed instead of tortured forever. Some people are going to turn evil despite any influence acted upon them.

    Satan is not bound yet. That only happens after Jesus comes back with power and glory. Rev. 19:11-13: “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.”

    Satan is then bound for the one-thousand-year reign of Christ on earth. Rev. 5:10: “And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”

    Rev. 20:4: “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

    Rev. 20:2,3: “And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

    There are many morally good people in the world, but unless our Father draws them into His fold: they will never understand God's word and His plan. We don't have to worry about anyone being tormented in flames forever. Romans 6:23 says the wages of sin is death. Everybody sins and everybody pays. This is physical death. The dead are asleep. Paul may have said: to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. OK, to close your eyes at night: presto - it is morning. It is the same principal.

    God's promise to resurrect "the rest of the dead" in Rev. 20 will be the first and only chance these that were not called in the first life will have. That is when they will have their chance to overcome Satan and his fallen army. This will be Satan's last act. When God is finished with purging the universe of evil: all the demons and evil people will be completely destroyed.

    Eze. 28:14: "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire." This establishes identity.

    Eze. 28:18: "Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."

    Eze. 28:19: "All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." This tells of the fate of Satan. Which is also the fate of those that reject the Holy Spirit anointing by the end of the judgement period.

    One poster said: I dare say that our Lord Jesus will be the same as He was on resurrection day, as He will be at His second coming, as He will be in eternity future - "flesh and bones" with wounds.

    [Continued]
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2021
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