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MJ Only What does it mean to practice Torah?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by teresa, Jun 21, 2017.

  1. teresa

    teresa Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I have read the SOP and I am posting as a guest- just here for fellowship and to ask questions.

    I am curious to know what someone who is MJ does to practice Torah?

    I don't know what Torah is except that I think its the first few books of the OT.

    If you believe the messiah has come, then sincerely I wonder what does Torah mean now and how and why does it edify or fill you up spiritually?

    I have a sincere heart and am here to learn and not debate anyone.

    Please feel free to share with me and help me learn.

    I know Jesus was a jew, and I am drawn to that aspect.
     
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  2. pat34lee

    pat34lee Messianic

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    Following the Torah means following the rules God set out for us to live by.
    Not only were they made to bring us closer to him, but also to make our lives better.
     
  3. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Torah .. first five books of the bible.
    Following Torah as a MJ... Go through the first five and any time you see sacrifice or High Priest [priest], think Yeshua whom you know as Jesus,... Those are the part that He partook of in fulfilling as the Lamb of God then as He entered Heaven [read the book of Hebrews for details]

    Think of this when you read Lev 23.. where it talks about the Lord's Sabbaths [ the feasts]. Yeshua's first coming fulfilled the spring feasts, and He will return and when He does, the fall feasts will be fulfilled. They are the "body of Christ" [Col 3:16,17]
     
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  4. 1John2:4

    1John2:4 Well-Known Member

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    <Staff Edit>
    To willfully sin is to trample on the blood of Jesus. PS sin is lawlessness

    26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
     
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  5. 1John2:4

    1John2:4 Well-Known Member

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    <Staff Edit>
    Will full sin is trampling the blood of Jesus, by the way sin is lawlessness (torahlessness)

    26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 21, 2017
  6. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    The principles found within the Law of Moses are the same principles that God will be using to judge on Yom Kippur.
     
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  7. Lulav

    Lulav Older than ZIP Codes Supporter

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    Attention please.jpg

    This thread has already
    had to be cleaned.
    Please be respectful of the OP
    who is asking for answers from
    MJ forum Members only
     
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  8. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    Greetings u2spicy,
    Torah encompasses the teachings of our Creator, Almighty YHWH, as found in the first five books of the Bible. To "practice Torah" is to live our lives in accordance with those teachings. Those same teachings (Torah) are to be written on the hearts and minds of New Covenant believers;

    Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
    32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith YHWH:
    33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YHWH, I will put my law (Hebrew - Torah) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know YHWH: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith YHWH: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.​

    Some of the prophetic aspects of Torah including certain shadows such as animal sacrifices, have been fulfilled by Yeshua. Those who practice Torah do not practice animal sacrifices. However, there are many other aspects of Torah that YHWH desires all His children to obey such as the Ten Commandments. To practice Torah would include not committing adultery, idolatry, murder, coveting, etc. When we break Torah, it is sin. If we love YHWH and Yeshua, we will try to live in accordance with Torah so we don't sin (1 John 5:3). Torah is a way of life as the true "Way" (Yeshua) taught us by practicing it perfectly himself. He is our example to do as he did.
     
  9. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    I forgot to address this. It is not necessarily that Torah fills us up or edifies us. That is what a relationship with YHWH and Yeshua does through the indwelling Holy Spirit. That same New Covenant Spirit is what causes us to obey Torah.

    Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them.

    We can still fail to obey or fail to heed the Spirit's leading as it prompts us to obey. If we do, we ask our Father for forgiveness and receiving cleansing of that sin through the blood of Yeshua. Then we hopefully "go and sin no more" or "go and break Torah no more".

    As we follow the Spirit's leading in obedience to our Father's teachings, we grow stronger spiritually and are better able to edify others.
     
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  10. teresa

    teresa Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thank you, please continue to inform me on the Torah.

    do you keep all the laws in Leviticus too?

    and is Torah the same thing as the Pentateuch?"

    are you claiming to be Jewish if you are MJ?

    are you Jewish by heritage genetically or is it bc you choose to convert to being Jewish?

    If I am a gentile, but convert to Judaism or MJ, then do I call myself Jewish?

    To become MJ must I first learn all the things one must learn in a synagogue?

    Please forgive my ignorance and pray for patience when answering my questions.

    When I read the above posts, something inside of me lept with joy.

    I somehow knew it to be the truth when I read the scriptures and I'm covered with goosebumps, nevermind teary eyed.
     
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  11. Aryeh Jay

    Aryeh Jay Veteran Supporter

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    Only the ones that apply to the person.

    Yes

    I cannot answer that question.

    Yes, both are correct.

    Yes

    I cannot answer that question.

     
  12. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    I do not claim to be Jewish. My ancestors are from Italy, but for all I know, they may trace back to a tribe that came from Israel. To me, it does not matter. I am an Israelite through Yeshua and of the seed of Abraham, perhaps not physically, but certainly spiritually.

    As a Gentile, you do not need to convert to Judaism or to MJ. MJ is a movement in which those that identify as such live as closely as possible to Torah while living the faith of Yeshua. You can be a Messianic Gentile in the MJ movement.

    I do not believe you must first learn all things in a synagogue. If you agree with Torah and choose to live your life as Yeshua did by obeying Torah and you have received Messiah Yeshua as your personal Savior, then you are an MJ. Learning the ways of MJ, which in reality, is learning the ways of YHWH, is a lifelong endeavor.

    HalleluYah! I am so happy for you. :clap:

    Do you know of a Messianic group/synagogue near you?
     
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  13. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    As MJ's we don't believe the Torah (the five books of Law) have "passed away." It's not that we believe we earn eternal life by obeying the laws, so much as that we obey out of love.

    Usually the laws are counted as being 613. When we talk about observing them, we are of course talking about those that apply to us. For example, I don't need to observe those laws that apply only to men, since I'm a woman. I don't need to observe those laws that apply to priests, since I am not a priest. I don't need to observe those laws about sacrifice, since there is no Temple. You get the idea.

    Paul is correct that the Law shows us our sins. But it ALSO brings us closer to God's will, nurtures a more intimate relationship with God, is an expression of our love for God, and builds a more ideal society. As Psalm 19 says, the Law converts the soul, makes us wise, and rejoices the heart. In Christian language, obedience to the law is a great tool towards sanctification.

    What do I personally do to observe the Law? (I am speaking only for myself):
    • Because of Deuteronomy 17:8-13, I honor Oral Torah (Talmud) in my interpretation of the Torah.
    • I observe the Shabbat: I rest from labor, as defined by the labors of building the Tabernacle which ceased on the Sabbath. I don't kindle a flame, meaning I don't turn on a stove, and I try not to use the combustion engine of a car, although I admit I drive to synagogue once a month. I try to keep the Spirit of the Shabbat by focusing in on spiritual matters, reading the Torah portion for the week and commentaries on it, only participating in religious forums online, avoiding TV, etc. I do traditional Shabbat activities such as light Shabbat activities and have a special Shabbat meal.
    • I eat kosher. This means I avoid treif (non-kosher) meats/seafood, and I separate my meat and dairy (don't boil a kid in its mother's milk); I even have separate dish sets, one for meat and one for dairy. I try to buy foods marked kosher in the market, because this means they weren't processed with non-kosher food.
    • I celebrate the Holy Days, such as Rosh Hashana, Chanukah, Pesach (Passover).
    • Those are the big things. There are also things like not standing by when I see someone being harrassed (Thou shalt not stand idly by thy neighbor's blood). It may seem like a lot, but it's habitual and is actually pretty simple. There's actually thousands of State laws and I keep those too.
    Not only was Jesus a Jew, but all the Disciples were too, and all the first believers were. Christianity began as a Jewish sect. Pretty much all the believers in the Jerusalem church were law abiding Jews who even continued to offer sacrifices. Acts 21:20 tells us there were thousands of Messianic Jews and they were all "zealous for Torah." That is our model.
     
  14. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    Hi spicy. Good to hear from you again.

    Many of them -- the ones that apply to me. For example, I avoid pork and shell fish, but I don't immerse after my period since I'm not married.

    Yes

    Although many would argue that Torah would have to include the interpretations of Torah. The Levites helped to discern how the law was to be applied. So did the seventy elders/judges that Moses appointed. In Deuteronomy 17:8-13, God himself gives life and death authority to these Levites and Judges in their interpretations, which we call Oral Torah.

    Practicing Messianic Judaism doesn't make you a Jew, because there are both Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles. Some don't like making the distinction, and just say they are Messianic.

    Okay, you are going to have to pay special attention because this gets complicated. Genetically I have Jewish DNA. My family line is what they call CryptoJew, which means that at some point, someone converted to Christianity, but kept up Jewish observances (like keeping the Sabbath by not carrying money, etc., not eating shrimp or pork...), most likely because the conversion was forced. Over time the Jewish ancestry was forgotten, but the observances remained. We were weirdos at our church.

    While doing research into our family tree, I discovered our Jewish past, and began looking into Judaism as a part of self discovery, but I was still very much Christian. As far as I knew, I was a Jew. I incorporated Jewish practices into my Christian walk.

    Much later in life, I became extremely disillusioned in my Christian faith, and APOSTATIZED, meaning I left Christ completely.

    I immediately began looking into Judaism, and to my great surprise, found out that Halakhically I was not Jewish. Halakha means Jewish law. In order to be a Jew, the decent has to be strictly maternal. On of the ancestors in the Jewish line had been male, and so legally that meant I was not a Jew. My attitude was SO? Let's take care of the Jewish Identity issue then! So I converted to Judaism.

    That makes me 100% a Jew. A member of the People of Israel, a daughter of Abraham and Sarah.

    I spent many years outside of Christianity, just being a regular Jew. Mostly I practiced Orthodoxy. When I moved to the country (my health required me to live with family) I stayed Orthodox as best as I could (remaining kosher was the biggest difficulty). My practice was between Orthodox and Conservative (my conversion had been Conservative). The only synagogue in the area was Reform and I still feel out of place there because they don't observe, and I've learned to keep my mouth shut about the fact that I do.

    After my years of practicing Judaism, I obviously came back to Moshiach, but that is a whole other story!

    If you convert to Judaism, you call yourself a Jew. If you convert to MJ you would call yourself a Messianic Gentile. The Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations has a program where those Gentiles who are married to Jews, or those Gentiles who are exceptionally called to Torah and Israel, may go through a period of study and then convert to Judaism, meaning they become Jews, as well as having become Messianic.

    You start by attending a Messianic synagogue, and you learn as you go. :) They are very welcoming. There are also Messianic Jews who choose to stay in the Christian churches, and still practice Torah. For example, I attend Mass weekly, and go to Synagogue once a month.

    Your questions are wonderful and you are wonderful. You are very welcome here. :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017
  15. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    ...dup
     
  16. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Hello,

    There is a lot of overlap between what MJ's practice and what most Christians practice, but where there is the most disagreement is over what are referred to as ceremonial laws, such as keeping the Sabbath and God's other holy days, as well as keeping kosher. The ceremonial laws are essentially God's instructions for how to have a holy conduct and in 1 Peter 1:13-16 we are told to have a holy conduct for God is holy and in 1 Peter 2:9-10 that we are part of a holy nation, so our conduct should reflect that. Note that it does not say to have a holy conduct in order to be like Jews or because we are under the Mosaic Covenant, but because God is holy, so it is about acting according to the eternal and unchanging holiness of our God. Further, that phrase is a reference to Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct.

    The word "Torah" literally means "instruction" and is usually used to refer to the first five books of Moses, but it also can refer to the entire OT. While it is not usually used in this way, it can also refer to a specific set of instructions or to any instructions of God up to including the NT.

    Messiah said he came to fulfill the law, which means that in part he came to cause God's will as made known in the Torah to be obeyed as it should be. If you read Matthew 15:1-9, there is a stark contrast between the traditions of the elders and the commands of God, so the Pharisees were not doing a very good job of teaching how to obey the Torah and were adding many of their own traditions, which Messiah referred to as placing a heavy burden on the people (Matthew 23:2-4). Messiah was sinless, so set a perfect example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 3:6).

    Gladly. :)

    Even when the Torah was given, there wasn't a single person who was required to obey every single law. Not even Jesus was able to obey the laws in regard to giving birth or to a woman's period. Some laws were for the King, the High Priest, priest, judges, men, women, children, people living in the land, strangers living among them, and for everyone. Laws also have conditions under which they apply, such as the Sabbath that only applies when it is the 7th day or laws in regard to temple practice that only apply when there is a temple in which to practice them. Understanding which laws apply to us today and how they apply is a matter of careful study, prayer, and guidance of the Spirit.

    "Pentateuch" means "five books" so they usually mean the same thing, though "Torah" can have a broader range of meaning.

    The majority of Messianics are not Jewish and don't claim to be.

    Jewishness is usually reckoned through the mom's side of the family, though there are also ways to convert. However:

    1 Corinthians 7:18 Was anyone at the time of his call already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was anyone at the time of his call uncircumcised? Let him not seek circumcision.

    Judaism, yes, MJ, no.

    Sorry, I misread your question. A Jewish synagogue will have more emphasis on rabbinic traditions, whereas Messiah had a problem with their many traditions (Matthew 15:1-9). In my MJ synagogue, we sometimes quote the rabbis to understand how a passage was anciently understood, but not as an authority for what we should be doing. A MJ is going to focus more on the Messiah naturally.

    It is far better to be ignorant and seeking answers than to be ignorant and not seeking answers. :)

    Here's a useful website with excellent studies and articles:

    Kehilat Sar Shalom, a Messianic Community Congregation
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017
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  17. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    Hi Spicy! I have come across your posts elsewhere on this site.
    Welcome to the Messianic folder!
    (BTW - honest questions are always welcomed - often they are more important than the answers)

    There are actually several definitions for "Torah" as to what texts are included. (buckle up your seat belt - this gets a bit bumpy)

    At the base, it is the first 5 books of Moses: Genesis thru Deuteronomy.

    At the next level - it also includes the rest of Tenach - what is called in Christian circles the "old" testament; comprised of the Hebrew prophets and the other Writings. (Joshua thru Malachi)

    At a further level - there is also an "Oral Torah" made up of Rabbinic writings such as the Mishnah and the Talmuds.

    And to us Messianics, we also include the Apostolic Writings - (commonly called the New Testament) as part of the Torah.

    One of the biggest misconceptions on Torah is that it equals "Law." That is an unfortunate translation issue with the ancient Greeks using "nomos" (law) to translate "Torah" in the Septuagint. (mid third century bc) But Torah is better translated as "teaching" or "instruction."
     
  18. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    Obviously with the life death and resurrection of Messiah - some things changed. How broad those changes are, and what that means to a new covenant believer, Jewish or not, has been a subject of much debate for generations.

    This is definitely one of those situations where if you get 5 Messianic Jews in a room together you will have at least 6 different opinions.
    No
    It could be either.
    You can. But your conversion will not be recognized by Judaism in general unless it is done by an Orthodox rabbi. (in which case you probably will be required to disown faith in Jesus/Yeshua) Conversion by a Messianic rabbi will not be recognized as valid by anyone other than some Messianic groups.

    Not at all, but from personal experience I can tell you it helps. A LOT.
     
  19. teresa

    teresa Well-Known Member Supporter

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    thank you so much everyone, there is so much to learn here.

    Personally, I am floored that I never knew that Jesus kept the laws himself, meaning he kept torah, correct?

    I want to walk in the footsteps of my Lord.

    I am so deeply touched by this thread and the new knowledge that i am learning..

    I feel like laying prostate on the floor, weeping, as Ive never really then followed my Lord and lived like He did.

    I just did not know the truth.

    Was Jesus a real Rabbi then?

    Was he studied and learned in the Jewish laws and traditions?

    Where would he have learned all of these things?

    Did he have a Jewish temple where he was taught?

    Would it be correct to call Him Rabbi?

    why is jesus called yeshua?
     
  20. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    Yes - he kept Torah like no one else could.

    As Paul testified in Galatians, He was born "under the law." And that means that if he had EVER in ANY WAY violated Torah, he would have been invalidated from being our perfect sinless sacrifice and we are all still in our sins.
     
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