What does it mean that the Holy Spirit proceeds "through the Son?"

abacabb3

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Hey guys, I was reading Tertullian's and Hippolytus' early speculation on the doctrine of the Trinity and I was interested that as early as Tertullian, was not only the doctrine of Christ's humanity AND divinity explicitly defended, so was the idea of God being one essence and three distinct persons. Reading Tertullian, he used the term "through the Son" to speak of the Spirit's eternal procession.

However, I have noticed that Photius in the Mystagogy does not really do justice to the term "through the Son" when we discuss of how the Holy Spirit was eternally proceeded from the Father before time. St Photius only treats the temporal procession of the Spirit through the Son (i.e. after the Resurrection, Christ sends the Spirit...but obviously this has nothing to do with the Spirit's eternal generation).

St Basil in On the Holy Spirit writes:

"Thus the way of the knowledge of God lies from One Spirit through the One Son to the One Father, and conversely the natural Goodness and the inherent Holiness and the royal Dignity extend from the Father through the Only-begotten to the Spirit. Thus there is both acknowledgment of the hypostases and the true dogma of the Monarchy is not lost" (CHap 47).

St John of Damascus in An Exposition of the Orthodox Faith writes: "And the Holy Spirit is the power of the Father revealing the hidden mysteries of His Divinity, proceeding from the Father through the Son in a manner known to Himself, but different from that of generation." (Chapter 12).

My question is what does this mean? St Gregory of Nyssa used the following example to show how the Spirit proceeds through the Son:

It is as if a man were to see a separate flame burning on three torches (and we will suppose that the third flame is caused by that of the first being transmitted to the middle, and then kindling the end torch).

So, if the eternal procession of the Spirit is akin to a third torch getting a flame from a second torch, whose flame was received from the first torch...how is this different than the RC doctrine that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and Son. Granted, both torches are not lighting the Spirit at the same time so to say, but going by Gregory of Nyssa's example, the flame does make its way from the Father through the Son to the Spirit.

It would be like me saying I took the train through Germany and France before I made it to Spain, or I proceeded from Germany and France to get to Spain. Sure, I was in Germany first, but the word "and" does not undo that proceeded from two points to get to a third.

Did St Photius deal with the is of eternal procession?
 

abacabb3

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Gabriel12

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I would say that your focus is shifted from what Christ did for us to how he came to the point of doing this for us. How you receive the flame is not our worry. Our worry is what the flame does for us now. Your seeing the trinity like which came first the chicken or the egg but what your missing is that he is all one. The chicken, the egg and the life that is to be born from the egg. But now our only connection with God is Jesus through which we receive the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is our seal from Christ to God. These are not separate stops through our relationship with God. Once you truely have Christ you have all. Forgiveness, hope, God, Holy Spirit, love, but most importantly eternal life.
 
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No man can know the nature of the relationships between the uncreated persons of the Holy Trinity. All that can be known is what has been revealed; that the Word is eternally begotten of the Father and that the Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father. All talk about the Spirit proceeding "through the Son" refers to the Trinity's relations to created (and so, in time) things. When so-called theologians went so far as to define the eternal relationships between the Divine Persons, beyond what is revealed, they left the realm of true Theology and embarked upon philosophy. By introspection into their own fallen, tripartite construction that exists in created time, they created the Holy Trinity in their own image. Such is the doctrine of the procession of the Holy Spirit "from the Father and the Son". It's a man-made dogma.
 
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Gabriel12

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No man can know the nature of the relationships between the uncreated persons of the Holy Trinity. All that can be known is what has been revealed; that the Word is eternally begotten of the Father and that the Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father. All talk about the Spirit proceeding "through the Son" refers to the Trinity's relations to created (and so, in time) things. When so-called theologians went so far as to define the eternal relationships between the Divine Persons, beyond what is revealed, they left the realm of true Theology and embarked upon philosophy. By introspection into their own fallen, tripartite construction that exists in created time, they created the Holy Trinity in their own image. Such is the doctrine of the procession of the Holy Spirit "from the Father and the Son". It's a man-made dogma.
The
 
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Gabriel12

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“through the son” is the most important part. No one gets to heaven except through Me. Christ is the connection to God. Christ is the giver of the Holy Spirit. Christ is the savior of sins. Christ is our way into the trinity. To be one with them.
 
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abacabb3

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“through the son” is the most important part. No one gets to heaven except through Me. Christ is the connection to God. Christ is the giver of the Holy Spirit. Christ is the savior of sins. Christ is our way into the trinity. To be one with them.
Hi Gabriel! I think we are speaking past each other. There is a doctrine that pertains to the eternal origins of the three Persons of the Blessed Trinity. It sounds like you are talking about another doctrine, the economy of salvation :)
 
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abacabb3

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No man can know the nature of the relationships between the uncreated persons of the Holy Trinity. All that can be known is what has been revealed; that the Word is eternally begotten of the Father and that the Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father. All talk about the Spirit proceeding "through the Son" refers to the Trinity's relations to created (and so, in time) things. When so-called theologians went so far as to define the eternal relationships between the Divine Persons, beyond what is revealed, they left the realm of true Theology and embarked upon philosophy. By introspection into their own fallen, tripartite construction that exists in created time, they created the Holy Trinity in their own image. Such is the doctrine of the procession of the Holy Spirit "from the Father and the Son". It's a man-made dogma.
I'm just trying to figure out what the fathers meant when saying "through the Son."
 
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Gabriel12

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Hi Gabriel! I think we are speaking past each other. There is a doctrine that pertains to the eternal origins of the three Persons of the Blessed Trinity. It sounds like you are talking about another doctrine, the economy of salvation :)[/
 
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~Anastasia~

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Who are the 3 persons of the blessed trinity? Economy of salvation? It’s not the doctrine of salvation?
Hi Gabriel and welcome to CF and to TAW.

I think what abacabb means is that the question you are answering is not the one they are asking. Which is ok. :)

I think what they are getting at is discussing Rome's reasoning and justification for their attempts to modify the Nicene Creed, which was a statement the early Church made to set forth basic Christian belief in defense against all the heresies that were arising at that time. Our Church is an ancient one - we are still in communion with the existing Churches mentioned in Scripture (except Rome, which became Catholicism).

The 3 Persons of the Holy Trinity are the Father, Who is the eternal Source; the Son Who is begotten of the Father (our Lord Jesus Christ, Who was incarnate, crucified, resurrected, etc.); and the Holy Spirit.

I'll let someone else comment on the Economy of Salvation. But I think they were really asking about Rome changing the Creed and later attempts to justify having done so.

Again, welcome to CF. If you have any questions about the forums, please feel free to ask. God be with you. :)
 
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Lukaris

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abacabb3

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See chapter 38 of St. Augustine’s: Enchiridion

The enchiridion of Augustine : addressed to Laurentius : being a treatise on faith, hope, and love : Augustine, Saint, Bishop of Hippo : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

I think this will answer your question & a footnote mentions that the ancient Apostles’ Creed specifically stated the Spirit proceeds from the Father. St. Augustine seems pretty reliable on this point.
Isn't that against Orthodox teaching?
 
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Lukaris

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Isn't that against Orthodox teaching?

Augustine is right on some matters. He was countering a heretical opinion that stated the Son was the son of the Holy Spirit as well as the Father. He quoted a more ancient form of the Apostles’ Creed in that, “Our Lord Jesus Christ, who of God is God, and as man was born of the Holy Spirit and of the Virgin Mary, having both substances, the divine & the human, is the only Son of God the Father Almighty, from whom proceedeth the Holy Spirit.”

He was clearly upholding the Persons of the Trinity & protecting the understanding that the Son is begotten of the Father & that the Spirit proceeds from the Father.
 
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ArmyMatt

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How does the SPirit process through the Son eternally...or to phrase that another way, what does that mean?

the procession through the Son is economic. the Spirit's eternal relation to the Son is He rests within Him.
 
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