WHAT DOES IT MEAN , ARE THE 12 IN, OR OUT OF THE

Pepper77

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The Greek term used for the period of time mentioned by Christ in the pasage quoted, means: 'an age of punishment', (αἰώνιος aiōnios : i.e. ages long), often translated into English as everlasting or eternal, but more likely meaning here 'for as long as necessary', which of course could even also turn out to be eternally.

However Christ never used the term 'αἰώνιος / aiōnios' when he spoke to the crowds. Jesus spoke almost entirely in Aramaic, so 'αἰώνιος / aiōnios' is a Greek transalation of what He originally said in Aramaic, and that translation is again translated from Greek into English, so you and I can understand it in our own language. Something may have gotten lost along the way, in this two fold translation process.

However I think it is safe to assume that Jesus intended his hearers to understand that he was implying a long time rather than the blink of an eye, and God, (unlike Satan), does not punish without purpose, God's purpose being to encourage repentance and restoration, rather than destruction for revenge or for his personal pleasure. Bear in mind though that 'a long time' is a meaningless concept in an eternal environment, such as heaven or hell, so the term Jesus actually used in Aramaic may have been a metaphorical rather than a literal description of the actual interval involved.

Be that as it may Jesus was clearly intending us and his hearers to want to be included in the 'eternal life' queue rather than the 'eternal punishment' one, so we all know what we need to do about that, don't we.
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Thank you for that explanation, I’ll do some study on that. For years I believed in eternal conscious punishment, never really studying it. The last ten years I have studied it and believe that the evidence in scripture is for a judgment of the lost, and punishment based upon their works, but a punishment with an end. But I really see nothing in scripture that indicates a chance of repentance and salvation for the lost after death. I think it’s in my finite mind a beautiful thought, but I see no evidence. It seems all the evidence points to the opposite. Do you have any other scriptures pointing to that possibility?
 
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ExTiff

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Thank you for that explanation, I’ll do some study on that. For years I believed in eternal conscious punishment, never really studying it. The last ten years I have studied it and believe that the evidence in scripture is for a judgment of the lost, and punishment based upon their works, but a punishment with an end. But I really see nothing in scripture that indicates a chance of repentance and salvation for the lost after death. I think it’s in my finite mind a beautiful thought, but I see no evidence. It seems all the evidence points to the opposite. Do you have any other scriptures pointing to that possibility?

Don't you think it would have been a bit foolish of God to trust us with that kind of information even if repentance after death is a possibility? It does not surprise me that scripture is almost silent on the issue. Knowing human nature and our predisposition to sin, does the lack of information on the exact severity of sentences ruled at the judgment surprise you?

I would suggest that how ever lenient God is, it will be far better to have a good advocate ready with a good character report on us from his Annointed.
 
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Pepper77

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Don't you think it would have been a bit foolish of God to trust us with that kind of information even if repentance after death is a possibility? It does not surprise me that scripture is almost silent on the issue. Knowing human nature and our predisposition to sin, does the lack of information on the exact severity of sentences ruled at the judgment surprise you?

I would suggest that how ever lenient God is, it will be far better to have a good advocate ready with a good character report on us from his Annointed.

I’ll go with what scripture says. I am thankful I will stand in The righteousness Christ has given me. My hope and assurance.
 
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ExTiff

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I’ll go with what scripture says. I am thankful I will stand in The righteousness Christ has given me. My hope and assurance.

Exactly! I thought that was what I implied. What better advocate and mediator could we possibly have than God's Annointed? Encouraging if we deserve a "Well done thou good and faithful servant" not so encouraging if we actually get a "Deprt from me you evildoer, I never knew you", so our actual behaviour surely comes into the judgment sentence, according to this scripture. Matthew 25:1-46. Matthew 7:23.

Even the requesting thief at the crucifixion got a good report, for being honest about Christ's innocence and honest about his own guilt. That is all that is necessary.

 
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Pepper77

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Exactly! I thought that was what I implied. What better advocate and mediator could we possibly have than God's Annointed? Encouraging if we deserve a "Well done thou good and faithful servant" not so encouraging if we actually get a "Deprt from me you evildoer, I never knew you", so our actual behaviour surely comes into the judgment sentence, according to this scripture. Matthew 25:1-46. Matthew 7:23.

Even the requesting thief at the crucifixion got a good report, for being honest about Christ's innocence and honest about his own guilt. That is all that is necessary.
You don’t believe salvation is by grace through faith, not of works? Eph 2:8-9
 
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ExTiff

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You don’t believe salvation is by grace through faith, not of works? Eph 2:8-9

I believe that if you have faith in what Jesus has pronised, you will also seek to know and to do as he says. Luke 6:46. If you don't do as he says, you will have no part in him. John 13:13, John 13:8, James 2:14-22.

Do you think you can 'believe' your way into heaven, by doing as you please on earth?

We are supposed to be 'Like Christ'. He went around doing good. Acts 10:38. If Christ is with you, you will go about doing good. We don't do good to get to heaven, (Jesus has already arranged a place for us and is working on qualifying us, through us, often unbeknownst to us. John 14:2-3.), we do it as disciples because a disciple is like his master. Luke 6:40. If we don't go about doing good, we are nothing like our master and will get told so by him when the time comes and get a nasty surprise.

The mistake that many make though is in deciding for themselves what is 'good' and then doing what 'they' think is 'good' instead of doing as Jesus would have done, by being open to the Holy Spirit who guides us into all truth. John 16:13.
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Pepper77

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I believe that if you have faith in what Jesus has pronised, you will also seek to know and to do as he says. Luke 6:46. If you don't do as he says, you will have no part in him. John 13:13, John 13:8, James 2:14-22.

Do you think you can 'believe' your way into heaven, by doing as you please on earth?

We are supposed to be 'Like Christ'. He went around doing good. Acts 10:38. If Christ is with you, you will go about doing good. We don't do good to get to heaven, (Jesus has already arranged a place for us and is working on qualifying us, through us, often unbeknownst to us. John 14:2-3.), we do it as disciples because a disciple is like his master. Luke 6:40. If we don't go about doing good, we are nothing like our master and will get told so by him when the time comes and get a nasty surprise.

The mistake that many make though is in deciding for themselves what is 'good' and then doing what 'they' think is 'good' instead of doing as Jesus would have done, by being open to the Holy Spirit who guides us into all truth. John 16:13.
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It is by faith in Christ’s finished work on the cross. I believe that’s what the New Testament teaches. When we believe/trust in Christ to save us, we are joined to Him and He indwells us through the Holy Spirit. He transforms us and we will do good works and the fruits of the Spirit will be produced in our lives. But the good works do not save us. Christ accomplished that on the cross.
 
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ExTiff

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It is by faith in Christ’s finished work on the cross. I believe that’s what the New Testament teaches. When we believe/trust in Christ to save us, we are joined to Him and He indwells us through the Holy Spirit. He transforms us and we will do good works and the fruits of the Spirit will be produced in our lives. But the good works do not save us. Christ accomplished that on the cross.

I think that is what I have just said. (Jesus has already arranged a place for us and is working on qualifying us, through us, often unbeknownst to us. John 14:2-3.) We are being 'sanctified', i.e. made perfect, by becoming obedient to Christ, and doing as he did when on earth. We are already 'justified' by recognition of our own sinful nature and by a willing acceptance of his lorship over our lives and our conduct, especially toward other sinners, whom we are expected to love, as he himself loved sinful human beings
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Danoh

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Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? Acts of the Apostles 10:34-47.

Peter also said this to Gentiles who received that same Holy Spirit. So the people includes Gentiles with Israelites. There is no 'division' in the body of Christ.

"For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread." 1 Corinthians 10:17.

Who is the "One Bread"? How many bodies are there of Christ? How many people of God are there? 1 Peter 2:10, Revelation 21:3. How many folds with how many shepherds? John 10:16.

Hebrews enter the New Covenant in Christ's blood by exactly the same criteria as do believing Gentiles, BY FAITH in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. That is precisely why the Book of Hebrews was written to the Hebrews. There is but one Covenant for the remission of sin and it applies to ALL who have faith in God's promises and call on His name as Father, trusting in the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Any other interpretation which tries to divide the body is bogus, racist heresy.

There is now but ONE Covenant remitting sin. One Lord, One faith, one baptism. Ephesians 4:5. Everybody, Jew, Gentile, free, slave, Greek, Roman, black, white, male, female, all nations, ALL must enter and remain in that Covenant and are consequently saved by God through faith in God's Grace demonstrated in the blood of Christ, alone.
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Consider that throughout Scripture, the phrase "the people" refers to the nation Israel. This is often made obvious in the very verses that use the phrase. The book of Acts is no exception.

Nehemiah 8:8
 
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Danoh

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I agree with everything you said. One thing you said I was not familiar with. You said the lost are resurrected to judgement and indeterminate correction. Can you explain what you mean by indeterminate correction? Thank you.

A thought...

In some of your earlier posts you mentioned you go back and forth with an assembly that holds the view that the Body began with the Apostle Paul. And yet, your agreement with the poster you are agreeing with in your above reply shows you have clearly missed a key distinction such assemblies hold - that the Body is comprised of both Jews and Gentiles, not just Gentiles.

In other words, formerly lost Jews and Gentiles this side of Israel's fall from their status as one "people" of God in Acts 7 per Christ's warning to them in Matthew 12.

Again, you should know this if, as you assert in your earlier, interesting posts on here, you have been dealing with those who hold either to a Mid-Acts (Body began with Paul in Acts 9) or the Acts 28 (Body began with Paul in Acts 28) Position, as both assert said Body is comprised of both Jews and Gentiles, this side of Israel's fall.

The accusation of Anti-Semitism is false. Plain and simple.

Romans 5:8
 
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Pepper77

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Then sounds like we do agree, great! I believe If God saves us by true faith in His Son ( not mental assent or an emotional response to an altar call) but trust in His Son as the only one who can save us from the wretched spiritual lost state we find ourselves in He truly saves us as He promised Rom 10-9 thru 13. Our salvation is an ongoing process and work by God. We participate by our walk of faith. He makes us a new creation, a saint, Holy one ( set apart for His work). We have a new identity, no longer a sinner, no longer in Adam (dead spiritually) but in Christ (alive to God). We start out as a spiritual babe but complete, perfect with everything we need through Him for life and godliness. Do we walk perfectly all the time? No, it’s a process, learning and growing and maturing by our loving Father and Christ through the Holy Spirit in us. But our adoption into God’s family is permanent and He will finish the work when our salvation is completed, when we see Christ face to face and are like Him with the completion God has in store for us. So I like to put the emphasis on Christ’s Work in us. He is the vine, we are the branches. We don’t try to abide/remain/live, we just do because we have been joined to Him.
 
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Pepper77

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A thought...

In some of your earlier posts you mentioned you go back and forth with an assembly that holds the view that the Body began with the Apostle Paul. And yet, your agreement with the poster you are agreeing with in your above reply shows you have clearly missed a key distinction such assemblies hold - that the Body is comprised of both Jews and Gentiles, not just Gentiles.

In other words, formerly lost Jews and Gentiles this side of Israel's fall from their status as one "people" of God in Acts 7 per Christ's warning to them in Matthew 12.

Again, you should know this if, as you assert in your earlier, interesting posts on here, you have been dealing with those who hold either to a Mid-Acts (Body began with Paul in Acts 9) or the Acts 28 (Body began with Paul in Acts 28) Position, as both assert said Body is comprised of both Jews and Gentiles, this side of Israel's fall.

The accusation of Anti-Semitism is false. Plain and simple.

Romans 5:8
I don’t believe I ever said the body of Christ was comprised of only Gentile believers because I know they do not teach that, so I’m not sure where you’re getting the charge of anti-Semitism? What They do teach which maybe you’re referring to is that there was a Jewish church originally, or you could Call it the kingdom church, comprised almost completely of Jewish believers with a few Proselytes. One of my biggest disagreements is that they do not believe that Jewish church was part of the body of Christ, or that they were saved by grace through faith, but were obligated for salvation to keep the Mosaic law for salvation, instead of relying on Christ’s completed work on the cross for anyone who calls on His name for salvation.
 
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ExTiff

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Consider that throughout Scripture, the phrase "the people" refers to the nation Israel. This is often made obvious in the very verses that use the phrase. The book of Acts is no exception.

Nehemiah 8:8

You seem to have missed the point.

Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all).

Jesus was the word which God sent unto the children of Israel and He is Lord of ALL.

Lord of all the people and also of all peoples. No longer only of Isreal but from the Gentile Nations also, IF anyone in them has respect for God's Authority and worketh righteousness.
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ExTiff

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Not sure what point you say I am missing. Christ did come to the Jews first, absolutely. But His plan was always to bless and save people from both Jew and Gentile. Be clear on what point I am missing.

His obligation, according to the terms of the covenant, was to his own people, The descendents of Abraham, (not just the Jews and Levites who returned from Babylon). His obligation under the law was to the 12 tribes of Israel, the descendants of Abraham. His message of salvaion was directed to the Jews, (the tribe of Judah and Levi), merely because the other 10 tribes were too remotely scattered to be reachable in Christ's lifetime on earth. However it was not only to the sheep of the fold of Isreal that Christ was shepherd. He had other sheep, which he clearly intended to gather into the one 'fold' under the one shepherd. John 10:16.

There is only one church, one fold, one shepherd, one people, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God. The 'people' are all who have faith in God as Abraham did. Romans 4:9-17.

The answer to the question in verse 9 is obviously "Also for the uncircumcised". They become the one people of God when they believe in the promises of God through His Christ. Just as Abraham did when the gospel was preached to him.
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ExTiff

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Not sure what point you say I am missing. Christ did come to the Jews first, absolutely. But His plan was always to bless and save people from both Jew and Gentile. Be clear on what point I am missing.

The comment was actually addressed to Danoh, so I didn't actually say you were missing a point. I gave answer anyway.
 
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ExTiff

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I still have no clue what point he says I’m missing?

I can't see anything you've missed either. I've never come across even the theological position that there can be more than one body of Christ, or that the single flock in the single sheep fold does not represent the total number of The People of God. It seems like a mechanism for trying to exclude Jews from the church, plain and simple.
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Pepper77

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I can't see anything you've missed either. I've never come across even the theological position that there can be more than one body of Christ, or that the single flock in the single sheep fold does not represent the total number of The People of God. It seems like a mechanism for trying to exclude Jews from the church, plain and simple.
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Only these ultra/hyper dispensationalists present that view, and not all of them believe it either.
 
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His obligation, according to the terms of the covenant, was to his own people, The descendents of Abraham, (not just the Jews and Levites who returned from Babylon). His obligation under the law was to the 12 tribes of Israel, the descendants of Abraham. His message of salvaion was directed to the Jews, (the tribe of Judah and Levi), merely because the other 10 tribes were too remotely scattered to be reachable in Christ's lifetime on earth. However it was not only to the sheep of the fold of Isreal that Christ was shepherd. He had other sheep, which he clearly intended to gather into the one 'fold' under the one shepherd. John 10:16.

There is only one church, one fold, one shepherd, one people, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God. The 'people' are all who have faith in God as Abraham did. Romans 4:9-17.

The answer to the question in verse 9 is obviously "Also for the uncircumcised". They become the one people of God when they believe in the promises of God through His Christ. Just as Abraham did when the gospel was preached to him.
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Yes, the blessings promised to Abraham are fulfilled in the New Covenant to all those who believe in Christ, Jew and Gentile just as you say. That’s huge and they totally gloss over it. It’s always been about faith. One of the biggest purposes of the Mosaic law was to show man his inability to fulfill its righteous requirements, no matter how hard he tried.... the Romans 7 man. To lead him to Christ... Gal 3:24.
 
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