What does Deeper Fellowship look like, biblically?

[aiki]

I attend a church where the leadership has been strongly promoting "community" among Christians. But the approach to this matter was, well, kinda' worldly. There was a "sell job" put out to the congregation, trying to get them to enter more fully into community with each other on the basis of how much they would benefit if they did. This approach clearly appealed to the selfishness of the individual church member, to the consumerist mindset rife in North American culture today. The sales pitch went: If the members would extend themselves to each other, invest in community with each other more, they'd be happier, wiser, more fulfilled, more fully-rounded as people, discover unrealized sympatico with others in the church, etc.

Why this "sell job" to disciples of Christ? Is it really appropriate to induce them into fellowship with each other on the basis of what they might get out of coming together? There are benefits, of course, in believers being "members one of another," of uniting together as brothers and sisters in Christ, but is the chief basis for this unifying supposed to be self-interest?

Initially, God appeals to our Self-centeredness in inducing us into relationship with Himself: You want to avoid hell, don't you? You want to enjoy God, don't you? Don't you want the rest, peace, and joy found in Jesus? But even in the midst of these appeals to the sinner's self-interest, God is moving them away from their self-centeredness. The lost sinner coming to God must recognize he is a wicked person (Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:23) living in rebellion to his holy Maker, weak and unable to save himself from the consequences of his sin (Romans 5:6; John 15:5), and in desperate need of a Saviour (John 3:36). He must put himself under the will and way of God (James 4:6-10), if he is to truly know and walk with God.

Thus, God begins a process whereby a person "dead in trespasses and sins," bound under the power of their own fleshly desires, the World and the devil (Ephesians 2:1-3), and utterly selfish as a result exchanges their old, self-centered life for a new, spiritual one centered upon God. Of course, the full import of this exchange isn't as evident at the moment of salvation, it isn't as clear what this exchange actually means in daily living, as it becomes later on in one's walk with God. Possibly, no one would come to God if they really, fully understood what they were getting into.

Typically, people are told they are obtaining something when they are born-again - and this is entirely true. They get rescued from hell; they get adopted into God's family; they get spiritual life in the Holy Spirit, and so on. But this isn't the full story. They also must die.

This dying bit isn't emphasized much - if at all - these days. Certainly it has vanished completely from any modern presentation of the Gospel I've ever heard. But what God is offering to us in salvation isn't just rescue and adoption into His family but the exchange of our old self-centered life - the death of it, in fact - for a totally new life revolving around, and springing out of, Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17).

Matthew 16:24-25
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Galatians 2:20
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Colossians 3:1-4
1 If you then are risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sits on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall you also appear with him in glory.

(See also: Galatians 5:24, Galatians 6:14, Romans 12:1, Romans 6:1-22)

This brings me to why I'm posting all this in the "Deeper Fellowship" subforum on CF. After studying God's word for many decades and walking with Him for almost fifty years, I am thoroughly convinced that deeper fellowship with God cannot exist without an understanding, and a living out, of the exchange of life (temporal and carnal for spiritual and eternal) and Self-death that is at the core of the Gospel. There is no real "deeper fellowship" with God apart from entering by faith into these truths every day.

Counterfeits exist of deeper fellowship with God, of course. High emotion and hyper-sensual experience is one of the most common counterfeits; somber ritual and pageantry is another; legalistic outward conformity to "holy living" is popular, too. None of these, however, in-and-of themselves, can take the place of the crucified life Christ commanded us to take up and the apostle Paul wrote of so often.

So, are you "dying daily"? Are you living as one who has taken up the cross of death to Self, of self-denial, and going deep with God as a result? I hope and pray so. There is no other way to a spiritually-fruitful life that enjoys God properly and fully.

John 12:24-25
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abides alone: but if it die, it brings forth much fruit.
25 He who loves his life shall lose it; and he who hates his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Romans 6:11
11 Likewise reckon you also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Joyous Song]

I attend a church where the leadership has been strongly promoting "community" among Christians. But the approach to this matter was, well, kinda' worldly. There was a "sell job" put out to the congregation, trying to get them to enter more fully into community with each other on the basis of how much they would benefit if they did. This approach clearly appealed to the selfishness of the individual church member, to the consumerist mindset rife in North American culture today. The sales pitch went: If the members would extend themselves to each other, invest in community with each other more, they'd be happier, wiser, more fulfilled, more fully-rounded as people, discover unrealized sympatico with others in the church, etc.

Why this "sell job" to disciples of Christ? Is it really appropriate to induce them into fellowship with each other on the basis of what they might get out of coming together? There are benefits, of course, in believers being "members one of another," of uniting together as brothers and sisters in Christ, but is the chief basis for this unifying supposed to be self-interest?

Initially, God appeals to our Self-centeredness in inducing us into relationship with Himself: You want to avoid hell, don't you? You want to enjoy God, don't you? Don't you want the rest, peace, and joy found in Jesus? But even in the midst of these appeals to the sinner's self-interest, God is moving them away from their self-centeredness. The lost sinner coming to God must recognize he is a wicked person (Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:23) living in rebellion to his holy Maker, weak and unable to save himself from the consequences of his sin (Romans 5:6; John 15:5), and in desperate need of a Saviour (John 3:36). He must put himself under the will and way of God (James 4:6-10), if he is to truly know and walk with God.

Thus, God begins a process whereby a person "dead in trespasses and sins," bound under the power of their own fleshly desires, the World and the devil (Ephesians 2:1-3), and utterly selfish as a result exchanges their old, self-centered life for a new, spiritual one centered upon God. Of course, the full import of this exchange isn't as evident at the moment of salvation, it isn't as clear what this exchange actually means in daily living, as it becomes later on in one's walk with God. Possibly, no one would come to God if they really, fully understood what they were getting into.

Typically, people are told they are obtaining something when they are born-again - and this is entirely true. They get rescued from hell; they get adopted into God's family; they get spiritual life in the Holy Spirit, and so on. But this isn't the full story. They also must die.

This dying bit isn't emphasized much - if at all - these days. Certainly it has vanished completely from any modern presentation of the Gospel I've ever heard. But what God is offering to us in salvation isn't just rescue and adoption into His family but the exchange of our old self-centered life - the death of it, in fact - for a totally new life revolving around, and springing out of, Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17).

Matthew 16:24-25
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Galatians 2:20
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Colossians 3:1-4
1 If you then are risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sits on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall you also appear with him in glory.

(See also: Galatians 5:24, Galatians 6:14, Romans 12:1, Romans 6:1-22)

This brings me to why I'm posting all this in the "Deeper Fellowship" subforum on CF. After studying God's word for many decades and walking with Him for almost fifty years, I am thoroughly convinced that deeper fellowship with God cannot exist without an understanding, and a living out, of the exchange of life (temporal and carnal for spiritual and eternal) and Self-death that is at the core of the Gospel. There is no real "deeper fellowship" with God apart from entering by faith into these truths every day.

Counterfeits exist of deeper fellowship with God, of course. High emotion and hyper-sensual experience is one of the most common counterfeits; somber ritual and pageantry is another; legalistic outward conformity to "holy living" is popular, too. None of these, however, in-and-of themselves, can take the place of the crucified life Christ commanded us to take up and the apostle Paul wrote of so often.

So, are you "dying daily"? Are you living as one who has taken up the cross of death to Self, of self-denial, and going deep with God as a result? I hope and pray so. There is no other way to a spiritually-fruitful life that enjoys God properly and fully.

John 12:24-25
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abides alone: but if it die, it brings forth much fruit.
25 He who loves his life shall lose it; and he who hates his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Romans 6:11
11 Likewise reckon you also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

JS: I sorry to hear of your present situation in your church. When I read community based I at first thought of our church. We are community based but this is in serving the community, not ourselves. How did the Gospel get so twisted?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

There are different levels of maturity that unfortunately church groups can be seen to maintain very low levels of and resist the God-desired growth. The first part of the op sounded like Sunday school material of essential teaching that without is lacking any foundation to be called a church group.
Dead with Christ requires a solid understanding to be effective to a Christian life.
Same with ascension that requires understanding of how that is possible.
Reigning with Him is what they have adopted for the most part, that cannot be of a truth unless the old has passed away and that in a living way.

Superficial/counterfiet Christianity is no Christianity at all. I’m not buying it.

 

[aiki]

It seems the Gospel gets twisted only after important parts are downplayed and then edited out.

 

[Joyous Song]

It seems the Gospel gets twisted only after important parts are downplayed and then edited out.

Sometimes we need to be a Light in our Churches when such happens. Not that they will necessary respond well. Sadly, years ago my husband and daughters were sent to a church that was closing to assist them in their last Mass.

A small group met afterward and told us of a click that had formed among certain members. It became very popular and slowly strangled the Gospel in the Church. I was very sad but as we talked they became hopeful about restarting again, I don't know if that ever happened.
I sorry to say your congregation also sounds sick. I hoping you can by example recover it but if not learn from this situation. Perhaps it will help you find a better place to worship.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

That is where shepherding is crucial. Ezekiel 34 comes to mind.

 

[Via Cassian]

This dying bit isn't emphasized much - if at all - these days. Certainly it has vanished completely from any modern presentation of the Gospel I've ever heard. But what God is offering to us in salvation isn't just rescue and adoption into His family but the exchange of our old self-centered life - the death of it, in fact - for a totally new life revolving around, and springing out of, Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17).

Aiki, excellent post. All great, I especially like your statement quoted above. Everyone has their own way of doing what you describe. For me I see what you describe as becoming unburdened by my worse sins and becoming free to live fully in Christ's love. Death to my old self will be a wonderful victory of liberation and not an agony.

 

[aiki]

Aiki, excellent post. All great, I especially like your statement quoted above. Everyone has their own way of doing what you describe. For me I see what you describe as becoming unburdened by my worse sins and becoming free to live fully in Christ's love. Death to my old self will be a wonderful victory of liberation and not an agony.

I'm grateful that, in regards to walking with God, the Bible is so explicit about the things that really matter. In particular, the dying to Self stuff is laid out really well by the apostle Paul and Christ. I hear lots of folks talk about "their cross" by which they mean an annoying neighbor, or a bad back, or a crummy job, or rotten spouse/kids. This sort of thinking surprises me, though, since Jesus is very plain about what he meant by "taking up one's cross": denying oneself. He says so in the same verse where he talks of "taking up one's cross," in fact. The crucified life, dying to the "old man," as Paul put it, is not putting up with frustrating circumstances or people, but living self-sacrificially, just as Jesus did.

I like Cassia's remark about the fact that, while Christians die on the one hand, they come alive unto God through Christ Jesus on the other.

"Reigning with Him is what they have adopted for the most part, that cannot be of a truth unless the old has passed away and that in a living way."

The Gospel isn't just about forsaking one's old life of sin, but embarking upon a new one filled with the things of God. Basically, 2 Corinthians 5:17.

The new life in Christ, though, can't be enjoyed without living by faith in one's co-crucifixion with Christ, which Paul details in Romans 6. Certainly, one can't partake in "deeper fellowship" with God apart from the essential exercise of faith in one's union with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection. The wonderful thing about death to Self is that it isn't something I accomplish but that, instead, is a spiritual reality for every child of God that they, by faith, count on as already accomplished by Christ on the cross of Calvary. (See Romans 6:6 and Romans 6:11)

I sure can't crucify myself physically and it is just as impossible a task spiritually, too. Thank God, He has already put my "old man," that Self-serving person I was before I was saved, to death with Christ. I can't explain the precise mechanics of how this was accomplished any more than I can do so in regards to my second spiritual birth, but both are, nonetheless, equally true, as the Bible teaches. All that remains for me to do is to know I've been made "dead to sin and alive unto God through Jesus Christ" and, by faith, put my full weight on this reality in my daily living. And as I do, well, the result is an ever-increasing freedom from sin and a resulting deeper fellowship with God.

Sadly, until Christians get a firm hold on this fundamental spiritual truth, it will be impossible for them to enjoy deep spiritual fellowship with each other; for it's only through deep fellowship with God that such fellowship may be enjoyed between His children. And you're right, Via Cassian, death to Self isn't an agony but a reality that, once appropriated by faith, leads to rest, spiritual victory and joy.

 

[1watchman]

Some good thoughts, Aiki, on fellowship. Certainly our fellowship should be more with those who bow to the Word of God fully, but at the same time to also reach out to other seekers after God to find a sound Bible-only assembly. That seems almost rare these days with everyone starting something new often to have their own ideas in a gathering.

Our local gathering meets more like described on the Biblecounsel web site on the Internet --speaking of Bible-only worldwide without sectarianism. Its a worthy endeavor for saints everywhere, I believe. I can travel worldwide and find gatherings of saints all speaking the same truths, which I did not have for years before in various sects. Write me personally if you wish to see how that works. Keep looking up, friend, for God cares for us always.

 

[aiki]

Some good thoughts, Aiki, on fellowship. Certainly our fellowship should be more with those who bow to the Word of God fully, but at the same time to also reach out to other seekers after God to find a sound Bible-only assembly.

Unfortunately, I haven't found entire assemblies of such people, only individuals here and there who understand the deeper life in Christ.

That seems almost rare these days with everyone starting something new often to have their own ideas in a gathering.

Yup. Very true.

Our local gathering meets more like described on the Biblecounsel web site on the Internet --speaking of Bible-only worldwide without sectarianism. Its a worthy endeavor for saints everywhere, I believe. I can travel worldwide and find gatherings of saints all speaking the same truths, which I did not have for years before in various sects. Write me personally if you wish to see how that works. Keep looking up, friend, for God cares for us always.

Interesting. I'll check out the Biblecounsel website.

You keep looking up, too!

 

[Victor in Christ]

Seeking God

Sometimes you have to be alone or in despair (like David) to receive/find deeper fellowship with the Lord.

Psalms 63 (a Psalm of David, when he was in the wilderness of Judah)

O God, thou art my God; early will I seek thee: my soul thirsteth for thee, my flesh longeth for thee in a dry and thirsty land, where no water is;

To see thy power and thy glory, so as I have seen thee in the sanctuary.

Because thy lovingkindness is better than life, my lips shall praise thee.

Thus will I bless thee while I live: I will lift up my hands in thy name.

My soul shall be satisfied as with marrow and fatness; and my mouth shall praise thee with joyful lips:

When I remember thee upon my bed, and meditate on thee in the night watches.

Because thou hast been my help, therefore in the shadow of thy wings will I rejoice.

My soul followeth hard after thee: thy right hand upholdeth me.

But those that seek my soul, to destroy it, shall go into the lower parts of the earth.

They shall fall by the sword: they shall be a portion for foxes.

But the king shall rejoice in God; every one that sweareth by him shall glory: but the mouth of them that speak lies shall be stopped.