What does Christmas have to do with Jesus?

[Osiris]

At the risk of sounding juvenile I read your link and as you said, "almost doesn't count"!

Well, I'm not trying to prove the date of Jesus' birthdate, you are. So, almost doesn't count will not fit me but only you.
You see, you have put yourself in a position to prove something with evidence that almost proves it with educated guesses, but then again, almost doesn't count.
And what I'm trying to to, is prove that Jesus' birthdate is not on December 25th, (which is not!)

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 07:32 AM TruthorApostasy? said this in Post #76

Well, i'll say this. People dont get up on Christmas morning and say "happy birthday Jesus" and then spend the day thinking about him, do they? It's about presents for people,parades,drinking and is totally commercial as I see it.

How do YOU know what people do? Do you go around to every house and check? Most of the people I know and associate with attend a special Christmas worship service.

You see more Santa Clauses and Snowmen, than you do nativity scenes!

Irrelevant!

PS. the nativity scenes are wrong anyway, Jesus was not in a manger when the "wise men" [ not necessarily 3 wisemen, the bible just makes it plural ] came, by then he was in a house Mathew 2:11.

Irrelevant! Many creches show shepherds and not wise men. And if you have ever been in a church you would have heard that distinction is clearly taught.

Jesus was in the manger when the shepherds came, not when the Magi =[ magicians-Astrologers watching the stars for signs ] came.

The wise men were "Magos" and the definition of that title includes wise men, teachers, priests, physicians, astrologers, seers, interpreters of dreams, augers, soothsayers, sorcerers etc.. so they could have been teachers, priests or physicians and NOT astrologers.

Think about this too! Where did the "star" lead these pagan astrologers? To Jesus? No! Read Mathew 2:2-11 it took them straight to HEROD! So, was God using a special star to lead these pagan star worshippers to his son, for the purpose of them offering him gifts? [note, they didnt stay and become christs followers]

How do you know they were pagans? They were searching for the king of the Jews. Why would pagans be searching for the Jewish Messiah? No, they didn't stay, they went back to their own countries and carried the good news of the birth of the son of God, just like the Ethipopian in Acts 8. And the star did lead them to Jesus.

• 
  Matt 2:9 ¶ When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.

or was Satan using astrology to lead Herod to Jesus to have him killed? Whats on top of most Xmas trees? The star of Satan! [ a bit tgheatrical in the end, I admit, but think about it-it's true! ]

Herod didn't follow a star, he followed scripture to find Jesus.

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 09:25 AM Osiris said this in Post #80

If you want facts.
http://www.144000.net/birth.htm

I read a little of your so-called facts. I have already posted documented evidence which proves that Mary and Joseph could have travelled during December and the shepherds were in the open fields, year around.

[FN #2] Matt 24:20 does NOT prove that roads were impassable in winter, it only says pray that hyour journey not be in winter.

[FN #3]Alexander His Slop's "Too Babble on' (The Two Babylons), 1858, is a piece of undocumented, unproven garbage, almost 150 years old. From your link.

When Was Jesus Born?

Nowadays, most serious Bible students and scholars agree in that Jesus was not born on December 25th. Why? It is simple. Because the shepherds had their flocks in open field [1] which implies a date prior to October. And having in mind that the reason why Joseph and his pregnant wife, Mary, traveled to Jerusalem in order to be taxated. No competent Roman administrator would require registration involving travel during the season when Judea was impassable. [2]

Who decided December 25th as Jesus' birthdate?

The early Christian church did not celebrate Jesus' birth, and therefore the exact date has not been preserved in festivals. The first recorded mention of December 25th is in the Calendar of Philocalus (354 A.D.) which assumed Jesus' birth to be Friday, December 25, 1 A.D.

December 25th was officially proclaimed by the church fathers in 440 A.D. as a sincretism between the new religion of the Roman Empire and the tradition of the Roman holiday of Saturnalia, observed near the winter solstice, which was among the many pagan traditions inherited from the earlier Babylonian priesthood. [3]

"most serious Bible students and scholars agree in that Jesus was not born on December 25th." A blatantly false statement. What this really means is "Most people in my denomination believe this." If this is true then why not list some of the so-called "most serious" Bible scholars?

Re: [FN #2]

• 
  Encyclopedia Brittanica
  
  The earliest identification of the 25th of December with the birthday of Christ is in a passage, otherwise unknown and probably spurious, of Theophilus of Antioch (A.o. 171—183), preserved in Latin by the Magdeburg centuriators (i. 3~ 118), to the effect that the Gauls contended that as they celebrated the birth of the Lord on the 25th of December, whatever day of the week it might be, so they ought to celebrate the Pascha on the 25th of March when the resurrection befell.
  
  The next mention of the 25th of December is in Hippolytus’ (c. 202) commentary on Daniel iv. 23. Jesus, he says, was born at Bethlehem on the 25th of December, a Wednesday, in the forty second year of Augustus.

All that all of us can show is speculations, just like you can't prove Christ's birthdate was on the 25th, you can only speculate!

Don't point your finger because four are pointing back at you.

Same to you pal, same to you. You come to a Christian forum and challenge the beliefs of those here, with false information, with speculations, guesses, and probabilities, pointing fingers all around, pagan this, pagan that, and then get all bent out of shape when somebody disagrees with you and can document their arguments.

If I said Jesus' birthday is December 25th, this would be considered a lie.

In order for it to be a lie you must prove that is not true and you have not done that.

So if followers of Christ want to acknowledge His birth, what business it is of yours which day they choose, unless proof positive can be shown that it is the wrong date? Do you have any positive, irrefutable proof one way or the other? I rest my case!

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 09:39 AM Osiris said this in Post #81

Well, I'm not trying to prove the date of Jesus' birthdate, you are. So, almost doesn't count will not fit me but only you.
You see, you have put yourself in a position to prove something with evidence that almost proves it with educated guesses, but then again, almost doesn't count.
And what I'm trying to to, is prove that Jesus' birthdate is not on December 25th, (which is not!)

Can you read? I have already answered this. I have presented evidence and I can present more. I do not have to prove anything about Christmas. The burden of proof is on people like you who spout the doctrine of their sect and attack traditional Christianity. Since December 25 is a widely held belief and proofs for that date have been presented, those who claim this date is wrong must prove their claims. You have NOT proved anything about Jesus birth date.

 

[TruthorApostasy?]

Once again, i'm new here. The "old shepherd" appears to be a rude know it all, from what I see here. Noones opinion or proof is worth anything but his! There's one in every group, I hope others are more Christlike- some I see are!

 

[Osiris]

Yesterday at 09:04 PM OldShepherd said this in Post #83


I read a little of your so-called facts. I have already posted documented evidence which proves that Mary and Joseph could have travelled during December and the shepherds were in the open fields, year around.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one, but still doesn't prove Jesus' birthdate and there is still this..

It was, then, on that ‘wintry night’ of the 25th of December,955 that shepherds watched the flocks destined for sacrificial services, in the very place consecrated by tradition as that where the Messiah was to be first revealed.

"955. There is no adequate reason for questioning the historical accuracy of this date." or what it really means "I don't wish to to question the historical accuracy of this date because I don't want the result to mismatch with what i believe"

And don't deny this, because your source contains this:

APPENDIX VII. ON THE DATE OF THE NATIVITY OF OUR LORD

...... At the outset it must be admitted, that absolute certainty is impossible as to the exact date of Christ’s Nativity ...

So you cannot say with certainty that Jesus was born in December 25th, thus Dec 25th as Christ's birthdate will never be a fact because will never be certain.

Same to you pal, same to you. You come to a Christian forum and challenge the beliefs of those here, with false information, with speculations, guesses, and probabilities, pointing fingers all around, pagan this, pagan that, and then get all bent out of shape when somebody disagrees with you and can document their arguments.

Not really, you are the one with the speculations, speculating Jesus was born on Dec 25th with documents that don't really prove anything only speculate. I believe what Jesus says, not what man says. If Jesus had said in the bible that he was born on dec25th, I wouldn't celebrate it, but if Jesus said to celebrate it like he said he commanded us in the last supper, then I would celebrate christmas.

In order for it to be a lie you must prove that is not true and you have not done that.

We know that "it" is uncertain and impossible to determine(using your credentials). So if it's uncertain then YOU have to prove it with something new history hasn't seen or doesn't know about. And I don't have to prove because all I am saying is that Jesus' birthdate is uncertain so December 25th would not be a date that you can say with certainty. (which is right) To go even further, your credentials prove me right anyway by saying

At the outset it must be admitted, that absolute certainty is impossible as to the exact date of Christ’s Nativity ...

So if followers of Christ want to acknowledge His birth, what business it is of yours which day they choose, unless proof positive can be shown that it is the wrong date? Do you have any positive, irrefutable proof one way or the other? I rest my case!

Again, if followers of Christ want to acknowledge it, you are right, it is none of my business which day they choose. So that means from now on I will celebrate his birth on October 19. 

How do YOU know what people do? Do you go around to every house and check? Most of the people I know and associate with attend a special Christmas worship service.

Actually, where I come from, all christmas has to do with Jesus is the manger ornaments. Other than that, it's all gifts, pine trees, santa, rudolph, etc. BELIEVE ME, I didn't have to check other people's houses, and I just didn't stay in one place either I spent christmas in different places as I was growing up. Even now in America, family that I didn't know I had, celebrate it that way. My friends celebrate it that way too. And talking from experience I can say that most of hispanic people celebrate christmas that way, because that's how the tradition is.  And I am glad to hear that you don't give gifts, don't put up christmas trees, and other related traditions of christmas and that you only focus on his birth here on earth. So I guess I end my case too.

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 05:46 AM TruthorApostasy? said this in Post #85

Once again, i'm new here. The "old shepherd" appears to be a rude know it all, from what I see here. Noones opinion or proof is worth anything but his! There's one in every group, I hope others are more Christlike- some I see are!

If you want to address any issue on this forum with valid arguments do so. Keep your opinions about other members to yourself. You will not receive another warning. The fact that I have studied the Bible at the post grad level might explain why I am as knowledgeable as I am. I respect the opinions of anyone who documents and supports their opinion with credible evidence. I do not consider the scribblings of the JW, LDS, etc as credible.

 

[Jesus Is Real]

While Christmas may rightly be used as a special opportunity to proclaim the gospel (unbelievers have a tendency to show up at church around this time) and to contemplate the incarnation (even supposing that the Son of God became flesh at some other time of the year, people naturally think of Christ's birth at Christmas, which is not a bad thing), it seems quite wrong to imbed false beliefs into our offspring for the purpose of making them feel jolly. After all, what is an emotion worth if it is not tied to truth?

Placid,

Very true.

Another 'false Doctrine:' "Christmas IS for the children, not for the adults."

Boy have we MISSED God's Grace!