What does Christmas have to do with Jesus?

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lared

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Osiris,
Yes, and when we are no part of the world, as Jesus requested, then it becomes ever clearer and easier to see distinctions.
But when ones are part of the world and are caught up in nationalism, politics, military squabbles, things of the world....then Santa, elves, witches, and goblins are often defended. These pagan holidays are cherished.
Sincerly, Lared
 
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OldShepherd

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Today at 02:07 PM lared said this in Post #61

Osiris,
Yes, and when we are no part of the world, as Jesus requested, then it becomes ever clearer and easier to see distinctions.
But when ones are part of the world and are caught up in nationalism, politics, military squabbles, things of the world....then Santa, elves, witches, and goblins are often defended. These pagan holidays are cherished.
Sincerly, Lared
I don't see anyone around here defending any of that. rather I have asked for proof of anything here posted and all the Pharisees cannot provide one shred of evidence. Reminds me of this passage.

  • Luke 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a JW, and the other a Christian.
    11 The JW stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, caught up in nationalism, politics, military squabbles, things of the world even as this Christian.
    12 I spend hours every week passing out tracts, I give tithes of all that I possess.
    13 And the Christian, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

And a final note, blanket accusations and denunciations of any church or Christianity in general, without scriptural evidence is considered a violation of the rules. An example would be, "
These pagan holidays are cherished."
[notroll]Read and Heed![/notroll]
 
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Osiris

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lared was just agreeing with the previous posts.

America is not General Christianity. Other countries have people that are christian. People in those countries would consider halloween a pagan holiday. Would they be banned from this site if they came and posted here? On the other hand, wouldn't you disagree that Halloween is right and that the bible accepts it?(since Halloween is not in the bible just like christmass isn't.)
And what is your opinion on what I posted before?
Prostitution is bad, why doesn't christianity adopt it (with a differnt name, christian-like name) so it makes it harder for people to be christians and bad people at the same time? Or why doesn't the church start selling illegal drugs to praise the lord so drug dealers can praise him too?

according to your point of view, this would be allowed...
and besides, aren't you putting down our christian brother lared by saying that he should worship Christmas?
 
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On Santa

If a parent tells their child to believe in a mythical being (Santa) to make them "feel happier" in spite of the truth, what ought the child think when the same parent tells them to believe in a God (who is many things, but who certainly brings happiness in some sense)?

Note how many unbelievers point to this analogy between Santa and God to support their unbelief. Of course, the analogy ultimately isn't a very strong one. Santa only purports to be a contingent being, whereas the God of the Bible is certainly portrayed as a necessary being. God is the ground of all existence, thought, morality, etc. and Santa does not make such claims. Yet, (as some have pointed out) there are still god-like traits in Santa. He is supposedly omnipresent ("He sees you when you're sleeping..."), omniscient ("He knows when you've been bad or good..."). And, of course, Santa's present-giving system is based on works, not loving grace.

It seems prudent for Christian parents to let their children know why they give presents to them on Christmas (if they do; I don't see giving on this particular day as a requirement, of course): because their real, living parents love them, regardless of the many evils they have done - and not because some fantasy would make them feel warm and fuzzy inside. This human gift giving can be connected to the ultimate gift that God gave to us in Christ - i.e., the gifts we give to one another are a small way of showing our thankfulness of His gift of perfect righteousness and innocent atonement to us. Children can begin to grasp this. They might think, "Mom and dad love me this much...and then God loves me even more! Wow..." Even if Santa is merely a fun concept, why point to Santa when we could point to Christ?

While Christmas may rightly be used as a special opportunity to proclaim the gospel (unbelievers have a tendency to show up at church around this time) and to contemplate the incarnation (even supposing that the Son of God became flesh at some other time of the year, people naturally think of Christ's birth at Christmas, which is not a bad thing), it seems quite wrong to imbed false beliefs into our offspring for the purpose of making them feel jolly. After all, what is an emotion worth if it is not tied to truth?

Having said all that, I'm not against teaching children the stories about Santa. Yes, the stories are interesting to children. As long as they firmly understand that Santa is make-believe, they may enjoy these stories just as they do any Sat. morning cartoon (how the mind of even children ought to be engaged when viewing Sat. morning cartoons is another topic...) But imagine the confusion if a child isn't sure whether or not Bugs Bunny is real. Further, it is fairly certain that any child will run into other children and adults who give a different testimony to him/her concerning Santa's ontological status. Hence, it seems wise to explain that other people really do believe that Santa exists, and that most of them think they are being nice to their children by teaching them this, although they really are not telling the truth as they should.

Another positive reason for teaching children about Santa is that it encourages them to reflect, at a very young age, on what Christianity has to do with the Santa stories, Christmas, and the popular opinions about Santa. This can be part of the seed developing in them a Christian view of all of reality.

Moreover, if children are not taught the myths about Santa, they will be at a disadvantage when interacting with other children. And children do interact with and influence other children in profound ways. My hope is that all covenant children of the next generation would have Christ so firmly in their minds that they naturally say to their young friends around Christmas time, "I love Jesus, not Santa!" Again, not that Santa stories cannot be enjoyed in some sense, but that the ultimate antithesis between God and all non-God is clear; that most assuredly all good gifts come from His mighty hand and no other.
 
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OldShepherd

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Yesterday at 11:20 PM Osiris said this in Post #63

lared was just agreeing with the previous posts.

America is not General Christianity. Other countries have people that are christian. People in those countries would consider halloween a pagan holiday. Would they be banned from this site if they came and posted here? On the other hand, wouldn't you disagree that Halloween is right and that the bible accepts it?(since Halloween is not in the bible just like christmass isn't.)
And what is your opinion on what I posted before?

and besides, aren't you putting down our christian brother lared by saying that he should worship Christmas?
"America is not General Christianity" Have you posted any proof or evidence of this assertion? Or is it just rewarmed rehashed, doctrines and teachings of your denomination?.

"People in those countries would consider halloween a pagan holiday." Have you posted any evidence of this assertion? And actually no they wouldn't. Have you ever heard of "Carnivale" or "Fasching"? Very, very similar.

"Would they be banned from this site if they came and posted here?" Only if they repeatedly break the the rules.

"On the other hand, wouldn't you disagree that Halloween is right and that the bible accepts it?(since Halloween is not in the bible just like christmass isn't.) First it is irrelevant, you have NOT established that either of these two practices are part of any Christian service, creed, Bible study, etc.! What any Christian does in private as long as it does not violate God's commandments, as clearly shown in His word, is pretty much their own business. Remember the example of the speck and the log in the eye? How about golf, tennis, bowling, these are not prohibited by the Bible, should Christians be prohibited from doing these, on their own, also?

And in that vein where do the terms "superintendant" or "Theocratic organization" appear in the Bible? Or here is a good one "dumb dogs" applied to Christian ministers.

"And what is your opinion on what I posted before?" What specifically before?

"and besides, aren't you putting down our christian brother lared by saying that he should worship Christmas?" Whoa, that sounds like a false accusation, to me. Nobody said that anybody "should worship Christmas" or anything or any one other than God. And that implies that people who "observe" the Lord's birth on December 25 are worshipping someone or something other than the Lord.

Neither you nor any other has posted the first shred of evidence, in this thread, showing that anything about Christmas has any connection with any pagan practice, anywhere.

Your arguments against Christmas, if you have any valid points, should look something like this. "I personally observed church X preaching/teaching about Santa Claus, etc., that is forbidden by God's word (scriptures) and (other evidence)."

Now if you saw your next door neighbor who may or may not be a Christian observing Christmas, with Santa Claus, etc. then you take that up with them. Be careful that you do not get punched in the nose. But that does NOT give you or anyone else license to condemn all of Christianity.
 
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Osiris

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If I said that we need oxygen to breath. Would I need to post a proof or evidence of this assertion?

[/QUOTE]

"<I>America is not General Christianity</I><B>" Have you posted any proof or evidence of this assertion? Or is it just rewarmed rehashed, doctrines and teachings of your denomination?</B>. [/QUOTE]

Christianity did not start in America. So not all general things of christianity are in america.

<I>"And what is your opinion on what I posted before?"</I><B> What specifically before?</B>

this:
In response to 15th December 2002 at 11:06 PM kern in Post #31
Prostitution is bad, why doesn't christianity adopt it (with a differnt name, christian-like name) so it makes it harder for people to be christians and bad people at the same time? Or why doesn't the church start selling illegal drugs to praise the lord so drug dealers can praise him too?

according to your point of view, this would be allowed...

&nbsp;

And that implies that people who "<I>observe</I>" the Lord's birth on December 25

Like you said. Have you posted any proof or evidence of this assertion(Lord's birth on December 25 )? Or is it just rewarmed rehashed, doctrines and teachings of your denomination?.
 
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OldShepherd

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Today at 10:32 AM lared said this in Post #68

Osiris,
Thank-you.
It is clear from the Scriptures that Jesus was not born on December 25. And yet most every church promotes this. To deny that they promote this falsehood * * *[Edited]
[notroll][Do NOT post blanket condemnations of any group!][/notroll]

Sincerely,
Lared
No it is NOT clear in the scriptures that Jesus was not born on December 25. See response to Osiris, below.
 
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OldShepherd

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Today at 10:20 AM Osiris said this in Post #67

If I said that we need oxygen to breath. Would I need to post a proof or evidence of this assertion?
Is that the best you can do? Give me a break! If something is general knowledge and widely known there is no need to document it. But if you are making assertions against someone's established beliefs, then yes you do need to document it.
Christianity did not start in America. So not all general things of christianity are in america.
Hold it there my friend. There is a BIG difference between that statement and this one, "America is not General Christianity"
Like you said. Have you posted any proof or evidence of this assertion(Lord's birth on December 25 )? Or is it just rewarmed rehashed, doctrines and teachings of your denomination?
Too bad you can't come up with an original comment or question. Kinda like "Neener, neener, neener, you are one too-oo."

But to answer your question since this belief has been held historically long, long before 18 year old Charlie Russell started his "religion", it is not necessary for me to document it. OTOH, If you challenge this, or any other, widely held belief then it is up to you to offer the proof that it is false.

Nevertheless, here is an article by Alfred Edersheim, an accomplished Messianic Jewish author of the late 19th and early 20th century, which discusses the birth date of Jesus from a Jewish viewpoint. And know that I will expect your proof to be posted shortly.

  • The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, Alfred Edersheim,

    CHAPTER VI. THE NATIVITY OF JESUS THE MESSIAH.

    But as we pass from the sacred gloom of the cave out into the night, its sky all aglow with starry brightness, its loneliness is peopled, and its silence made vocal from heaven. There is nothing now to conceal, but much to reveal, though the manner of it would seem strangely incongruous to Jewish thinking. And yet Jewish tradition may here prove both illustrative and helpful. That the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem,949 was a settled conviction. Equally so was the belief, that He was to be revealed from Migdal Eder, ‘the tower of the flock.’950 This Migdal Eder was not the watchtower for the ordinary flocks which pastured on the barren sheepground beyond Bethlehem, but lay close to the town, on the road to Jerusalem. A passage in the Mishnah951 leads to the conclusion, that the flocks, which pastured there, were destined for Temple-sacrifices,952 and, accordingly, that the shepherds, who watched over them, were not ordinary shepherds. The latter were under the ban of Rabbinism,953 on account of their necessary isolation from religious ordinances, and their manner of life, which rendered strict legal observance unlikely, if not absolutely impossible. The same Mishnic passage also leads us to infer, that these flocks lay out all the year round, since they are spoken of as in the fields thirty days before the Passover - that is, in the month of February, when in Palestine the average rainfall is nearly greatest.954 Thus, Jewish tradition in some dim manner apprehended the first revelation of the Messiah from that Migdal Eder, where shepherds watched the Temple-flocks all the year round. Of the deep symbolic significance of such a coincidence, it is needless to speak.

    It was, then, on that ‘wintry night’ of the 25th of December,955 that shepherds watched the flocks destined for sacrificial services, in the very place consecrated by tradition as that where the Messiah was to be first revealed. Of a sudden came the long-delayed, unthought-of announcement. Heaven and earth seemed to mingle, as suddenly an Angel stood before their dazzled eyes, while the outstreaming glory of the Lord seemed to enwrap them, as in a mantle of light.956 Surprise, awe, fear would be hushed into calm and expectancy, as from the Angel they heard, that what they saw boded not judgment, but ushered in to waiting Israel the great joy of those good tidings which he brought: that the long-promised Saviour, Messiah, Lord, was born in the City of David, and that they themselves might go and see, and recognize Him by the humbleness of the circumstances surrounding His Nativity.

    It was, as if attendant angels had only waited the signal. As, when the sacrifice was laid on the altar, the Temple-music burst forth in three sections, each marked by the blast of the priests’ silver trumpets, as if each Psalm were to be a Tris-Hagion;957 so, when the Herald-Angel had spoken, a multitude of heaven’s host958 stood forth to hymn the good tidings he had brought. What they sang was but the reflex of what had been announced. It told in the language of praise the character, the meaning, the result, of what had taken place. Heaven took up the strain of ‘glory;’ earth echoed it as ‘peace;’ it fell on the ears and hearts of men
    as ‘good pleasure:’

    Glory to God in the highest -
    And upon earth peace -
    Among men good pleasure!959

    Only once before had the words of the Angels’ hymn fallen upon mortal’s ears, when, to Isaiah’s rapt vision, Heaven’s high Temple had opened, and the glory of Jehovah swept its courts, almost breaking down the trembling posts that bore its boundary gates. Now the same glory enwrapt the shepherds on Bethlehem’s plains. Then the Angels’ hymn had heralded the announcement of the Kingdom coming; now that of the King come. Then it had been the Tris-Hagion of prophetic anticipation; now that of Evangelic fulfilment.

    Footnotes
    950 Targum Pseudo-Jon. On Gen. xxxv. 21.

    951 Shek. vii. 4.

    952 In fact the Mishnah (Baba K. vii. 7) expressly forbids the keeping of flocks throughout the land of Israel, except in the wilderness - and the only flocks otherwise kept, would be those for the Temple-services (Baba K. 80 a).

    953 This disposes of an inapt quotation (from Delitzsch) by Dr. Geikie. No one could imagine, that the Talmudic passages in question could apply to such shepherds as these.

    954 The mean of 22 seasons in Jerusalem amounted to 4.718 inches in December, 5.479 in January, and 5.207 in February (see a very interesting paper by Dr. Chaplin in Quart. Stat. of Pal. Explor. Fund, January, 1883). For 1876-77 we have these startling figures: mean for December, .490; for January, 1.595; for February, 8.750 - and, similarly, in other years. And so we read: ‘Good the year in which Tebheth (December) is without rain’ (Taan. 6 b). Those who have copied Lightfoot’s quotations about the flocks not lying out during the winter months ought, at least, to have known that the reference in the Talmudic passages is expressly to the flocks which pastured in ‘the wilderness’ ({hebrew}). But even so, the statement, as so many others of the kind, is not accurate. For, in the Talmud two opinions are expressed. According to one, the ‘Midbariyoth,’ or ‘animals of the wilderness,’ are those which go to the open at the Passovertime, and return at the first rains (about November); while, on the other hand, Rabbi maintains, and, as it seems, more authoritatively, that the wilderness-flocks remain in the open alike in the hottest days and in the rainy season - i.e. all the year round (Bezah 40 a). Comp. also Tosephta Bezah iv. 6. A somewhat different explanation is given in Jer. Bezah 63 b.

    955 There is no adequate reason for questioning the historical accuracy of this date. The objections generally made rest on grounds, which seem to me historically untenable. The subject has been fully discussed in an article by Cassel in Herzog’s Real. Ency. xvii. pp. 588-594. But a curious piece of evidence comes to us from a Jewish source. In the addition to the Megillath Taanith (ed. Warsh. p. 20 a), the 9th Tebheth is marked as a fast day, and it is added, that the reason for this is not stated. Now, Jewish chronologists have fixed on that day as that of Christ’s birth, and it is remarkable that, between the years 500 and 816 a.d. the 25th of December fell no less than twelve times on the 9th Tebheth. If the 9th Tebheth, or 25th December, was regarded as the birthday of Christ, we can understand the concealment about it. Comp. Zunz, Ritus d. Synag. Gottesd. p. 126.

    956 In illustration we may here quote Shem. R. 2 (ed. W. vol. ii. p. 8 a), where it is said that, wherever Michael appears, there also is the glory of the Shekhinah. In the same section we read, in reference to the appearance in the bush, that, ‘at first only one Angel came,’ who stood in the burning bush, and after that the Shekhinah came, and spoke to Moses from out the bush. (It is a curious illustration of Acts ix. 7, that Moses alone is said in Jewish tradition to have seen the vision. but not the men who were with him.) Wetstein gives an erroneous reference to a Talmudic statement, to the effect that, at the birth of Moses, the room was filled with heavenly light. The statement really occurs in Sotah 12 a; Shem. R. 1; Yalkut i. 51 c. This must be the foundation of the Christian legend, that the cave, in which Christ was born, was filled with heavenly light. Similarly, the Romish legend about the Virgin Mother not feeling the pangs of maternity is derived from the Jewish legend, which asserts the same of the mother of Moses. The same authority maintains, that the birth of Moses remained unknown for three months, because he was a child of seven months. There are other legends about the sinlessness of Moses’ father, and the maidenhood of his mother (at 103 years), which remind us of Christian traditions.

    957 According to tradition, the three blasts symbolically proclaimed the Kingdom of God, the providence of God, and the final judgment.

    958 Curiously enough, the word stratiV is Hebraised in the same connection {hebrew}. See Yalkut on Ps. xlv. (vol. ii. p. 105 a, about the middle).

    959 I have unhesitatingly retained the reading of the textus receptus. The arguments in its favor are sufficiently set forth by Canon Cook in his ‘Revised Version of the First Three Gospels,’ pp. 27, 32.

    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/edersheim/lifetimes.II.CHAPTERVITHE.html
Continued on next page
 
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OldShepherd

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APPENDIX VII. ON THE DATE OF THE NATIVITY OF OUR LORD

(Vol. i. Book II. ch. iii. and other passages). So much, that is generally accessible, has of late been written on this subject, and such accord exists on the general question, that only the briefest statement seems requisite in this place, the space at our command being necessarily reserved for subjects which have either not been treated of by previous writers, or in a manner or form that seemed to make a fresh investigation desirable.

At the outset it must be admitted, that absolute certainty is impossible as to the exact date of Christ’s Nativity - the precise year even, and still more the month and the day. But in regard to the year, we possess such data as to invest it with such probability, as almost to amount to certainty.

1. The first and most certain date is that of the death of Herod the Great. Our Lord was born before the death of Herod, and, as we judge from the Gospel-history, very shortly before that event. Now the year of Herod’s death has been ascertained with, we may say, absolute certainty, as shortly before the Passover of the year 750 A.U.C., which corresponds to about the 12th of April of the year 4 before Christ, according to our common reckoning. More particularly, shortly before the death of Herod there was a lunar eclipse (Jos. Ant. xvii. 6. 4), which, it is astronomically ascertained, occurred on the night from the 12th to the 13th of March of the year 4 before Christ. Thus the death of Herod must have taken place between the 12th of March and the 12th of April - or, say, about the end of March (comp. Ant. xvii. 8. 1). Again, the Gospel-history necessitates an interval of, at the least, seven or eight weeks before that date for the birth of Christ (we have to insert the purification of the Virgin - at the earliest, six weeks after the Birth - The Visit of the Magi, and the murder of the children at Bethlehem, and, at any rate, some days more before the death of Herod). Thus the Birth of Christ could not have possibly occurred after the beginning of February 4 B.C., and most likely several weeks earlier.

This brings us close to the ecclesiastical date, the 25th of December, in confirmation of which we refer to what has been stated in vol. i. p. 187, see especially note 3. At any rate, the often repeated, but very superficial objection, as to the impossibility of shepherds tending flocks in the open at that season, must now be dismissed as utterly untenable, not only for the reasons stated in vol. i. p. 187, but even for this, that if the question is to be decided on the ground of rain-fall, the probabilities are in favour of December as compared with February - later than which it is impossible to place the birth of Christ.

2. No certain inference can, of course, be drawn from the appearance of ‘the star’ that guided the Magi. That, and on what grounds, our investigations have pointed to a confirmation of the date of the Nativity, as given above, has been fully explained in vol. i. ch. vi... (see specially p. 213).

3. On the taxing of Quirinius, see vol. i. pp. 181, 182.

4. The next historical datum furnished by the Gospels is that of the beginning of St. John the Baptist’s ministry, which, according to St. Luke, was in the fifteenth year of Tiberius, and when Jesus was ‘about thirty years old’ (St. Luke iii. 23). The accord of this with our reckoning of the date of the Nativity has been shown in vol. i. p. 264.

5. A similar conclusion would be reached by following the somewhat vague and general indication furnished in St. John ii. 20.

6. Lastly, we reach the same goal if we follow the historically somewhat uncertain guidance of the date of the Birth of the Baptist, as furnished in this notice (St. Luke i. 5) of his annunication to his father, that Zacharias officiated in the Temple as on of ‘the course of Abia’ (see here vol. i. p. 135). In Taan. 29 a we have the notice, with which that of Josephus agrees (War vi. 4. 1. 5), that at the time of the destruction of the Temple ‘the course of Jehoiarib,’ which was the first of the priestly courses, was on duty. That was on the 9-10 Ab of the year 823 A.U.C., or the 5th August of the year 70 of our era. If this calculation be correct (of which, however, we cannot feel quite sure), then counting ‘the courses’ of priests backwards, the course of Abia would, in the year 748 A.U.C. (the year before the birth of Christ) have been on duty from the 2nd to the 9th of October. This also would place the birth of Christ in the end of December of the following year (749), taking the expression ‘sixth month’ in St. Luke i. 26, 36, in the sense of the running month (from the 5th to the 6th month, comp. St. Luke i. 24). But we repeat that absolute reliance cannot be placed on such calculations, at least so far as regards month and day. (Comp. here generally Wieseler, Synopse, and his Beiträge.)

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/edersheim/lifetimes.toc.html
 
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Osiris

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Is that the best you can do? Give me a break! If something is general knowledge and widely known there is no need to document it. But if you are making assertions against someone's established beliefs, then yes you do need to document it.

Sorry, I didn't know you believed that America has all the general aspects of christianity. The only reason I posted "If I said that we need oxygen to breath. Would I need to post a proof or evidence of this assertion?" because I thought that it would be naive to think that all generality of a religion would be in just 1 country. Because it is general knowledge and well known that Christianity in America is not General Christianity, but rather&nbsp;christianity in a specific country. And because of this, I thought&nbsp;I&nbsp;wouldn't need any evidence. But I guess I was wrong.&nbsp;:rolleyes:

Hold it there my friend. There is a BIG difference between that statement and this one, "<I>America is not General Christianity</I><B>"</B>

I know that those statements are worded different, and I'm glad that you were able to see that. But they have the same meaning.

Too bad you can't come up with an original comment or question. Kinda like "Neener, neener, neener, you are one too-oo

Actually, it is not the same way. You are probably the only that sees it that way. Also, have you posted any proof or evidence of this assertion? Or is it just rewarmed rehashed, doctrines and teachings of your own imagination?

But to answer your question since this belief has been held historically long, long before 18 year old Charlie Russell started his "<I>religion</I>", it is not necessary for me to document it. OTOH, If you challenge this, or any other, widely held belief then it is up to you to offer the proof that it is false.

I want proof on this. But it looks to me, that statement is&nbsp;more like an opinion than a rule or fact that would be proved.

Besides I would challenge the widely held belief that the earth was flat. Just because it has been around for a long time, doesn't mean is correct. Paganism has been around along time too. How would you prove them wrong now?

Now, let me read your evidence that you posted to see if it's credible.
 
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Osiris

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I guess I don't need to read the whole thing but only this, since my question was to prove that Jesus' birth date was December 25th

At the outset it must be admitted, that absolute certainty is impossible as to the exact date of Christ’s Nativity - the precise year even, and still more the month and the day. But in regard to the year, we possess such data as to invest it with such probability, as almost to amount to certainty.

All that text to conclude with this? Everybody knows almost doesn't count.

Anyways, the link from my previous post tries to follow Jesus' birth using the scriptures.&nbsp;And like your evidence it will not bring the exact date. But look what they conclude with.
 
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Well, i'll say this. People dont get up on Christmas morning and say "happy birthday Jesus" and then spend the day thinking about him, do they? It's about presents for people,parades,drinking and is totally commercial as I see it. You see more Santa Clauses and Snowmen, than you do nativity scenes! PS. the nativity scenes are wrong anyway, Jesus was not in a manger when the "wise men" [ not necessarily 3 wisemen, the bible just makes it plural ] came, by then he was in a house Mathew 2:11. Jesus was in the manger when the shepherds came, not when the Magi =[ magicians-Astrologers watching the stars for signs ] came. Think about this too! Where did the "star" lead these pagan astrologers? To Jesus? No! Read Mathew 2:2-11 it took them straight to HEROD! So, was God using a special star to lead these pagan star worshippers to his son, for the purpose of them offering him gifts? { note, they didnt stay and become christs followers ] or was Satan using astrology to lead Herod to Jesus to have him killed? Whats on top of most Xmas trees? The star of Satan! [ a bit tgheatrical in the end, I admit, but think about it-it's true! ]
 
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OldShepherd

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Today at 03:05 AM Osiris said this in Post #73

In the mean while check this out...

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/sukkoth.htm
I did and found this
Why was there no room at the inn? Bethlehem is only about 5 miles from Jerusalem, and all the men of Israel had come to attend the festival of Tabernacles as required by the law of Moses. Every room for miles around Jerusalem would have been already taken by pilgrims, so all that Mary and Joseph could find for shelter was a stable.
Why were Mary and Joseph and all other Jews in or near Jerusalem?

  • Luke 2:1 ¶ And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
    2 (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
    3 And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.
    4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem;
They went to their hometowns to be taxed. If this most important event in Christian history occurred on a Jewish Holy Day why do NONE of the Jewish gospel writers ever mention or imply it? Other holy days are mentioned Passover, Pentecost, etc. but Tabernacles is never mentioned in connection with Jesus. Also none of the early church fathers mention Tabernacles in connection with Jesus.
Also of note is the fact that the Feast of Tabernacles is an eight day feast (Lev 23:36, 39). Why eight days? It may be because an infant was dedicated to God by performing circumcision on the eighth day after birth:
"It MAY be because. . ." Speculation to make it fit.
So the infant Jesus would have been circumcised on the eighth and last day of the Feast of Tabernacles, a Sabbath day. The Jews today consider this a separate festival from Tabernacles, and they call it Shemini Atzeret.
Contradiction! Is tabernacles and eight day feast or is it a seven day feast followed by a one day festival?
 
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OldShepherd

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Today at 02:44 AM Osiris said this in Post #72

Sorry, I didn't know you believed that America has all the general aspects of christianity. The only reason I posted "If I said that we need oxygen to breath. Would I need to post a proof or evidence of this assertion?" because I thought that it would be naive to think that all generality of a religion would be in just 1 country. Because it is general knowledge and well known that Christianity in America is not General Christianity, but rather&nbsp;christianity in a specific country. And because of this, I thought&nbsp;I&nbsp;wouldn't need any evidence. But I guess I was wrong.
The statement that "America is not General Christianity." is NOT the same as "all generality of a religion would be in just 1 country". "General" does NOT mean all!
I know that those statements are worded different, and I'm glad that you were able to see that. But they have the same meaning.
NO! They do not.
Actually, it is not the same way. You are probably the only that sees it that way. Also, have you posted any proof or evidence of this assertion? Or is it just rewarmed rehashed, doctrines and teachings of your own imagination?
The longer you write the more infantile become your responses.
I want proof on this. But it looks to me, that statement is&nbsp;more like an opinion than a rule or fact that would be proved.
Was Christmas in existence when you were born or was it invented in your lifetime? Just keep those infantile responses coming. I am not the one who appears foolish when you post nonsense. If the belief that December 25 was the birth date of Jesus is not widespread then why are you posting?
Besides I would challenge the widely held belief that the earth was flat. Just because it has been around for a long time, doesn't mean is correct. Paganism has been around along time too. How would you prove them wrong now?
That the world was round was proved by scientific observation. If you want to go after Paganism go right ahead, but it is irrelevant.
 
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OldShepherd

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Today at 03:31 AM Osiris said this in Post #75

I guess I don't need to read the whole thing but only this, since my question was to prove that Jesus' birth date was December 25th

All that text to conclude with this? Everybody knows almost doesn't count.

Anyways, the link from my previous post tries to follow Jesus' birth using the scriptures.&nbsp;And like your evidence it will not bring the exact date. But look what they conclude with.
No actually that is NOT what your question was.

  • Like you said. Have you posted any proof or evidence of this assertion(Lord's birth on December 25 )? Or is it just rewarmed rehashed, doctrines and teachings of your denomination?.
And this is exactly what I did, I posted proof and evidence.

At the risk of sounding juvenile I read your link and as you said, "almost doesn't count"! Here is another quote from that link. The list of dates and and priest's course used the Jewish lunar calendar. As you can see from this quote that is only 354 days. what happened to the other eleven days every year and how would that affect the dates of the courses?

So what we have is there is no concrete evidence that Jesus was not born on December 25. And the evidence for that date is no less compelling than any other date put forth.

  • The Yearly Cycle of Service in the Temple.

    The Jewish calendar begins in the spring, during the month of Nisan, so the first "course" of priests, would be that of the family of Jehoiarib, who would serve for seven days. The second week would then be the responsibility of the family of Jedaiah. The third week would be the feast of Unleavened Bread, and all priests would be present for service. Then the schedule would resume with the third course of priests, the family of Harim. By this plan, when the 24th course was completed, the general cycle of courses would repeat. This schedule would cover 51 weeks or 357 days, enough for the lunar Jewish calendar (about 354 days). So, in a period of a year, each group of priests would serve in the Temple twice on their scheduled course, in addition to the 3 major festivals, for a total of about five weeks of duty.
 
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Osiris

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If you want facts.
http://www.144000.net/birth.htm

"It MAY be because. . ." Speculation to make it fit.

All that all of us can show is speculations, just like you can't prove Christ's birthdate was on the 25th, you can only speculate!
Don't point your finger because four are pointing back at you.

If I said Jesus' birthday is December 25th, this would be considered a lie.

But if I said that, some have tried to make a graduated guess that Jesus' birthday is on December 25th. (and this will be true)

Just like, some have tried to make a graduated guess that Jesus' birthday falls on September or October would be true also.
 
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