What does Christmas have to do with Jesus?

[Wonder]

I haven't done Christmas in over 20 yrs. Let me tell you why. Its not that we can't prove when Jesus was born etc. but mainly because it is so full of lies etc. Santa has been made a god..telling children that he (Santa) knows all. More children know santa better than they do Jesus.

Also the fact that the care of our family takes most of our monies. I will not go in debt because people tell me it is time to buy gifts etc. I buy when I can afford it and for the one I feel might need it at the time.

I see no scriptual reason for Christmas, and if one can't afford to give as others do they are left out of parties etc. I have a large family...I can't afford something for everyone. I didn't like to lie to the children about santa. I personally never enjoyed christmas when as a child my parents did it. When I learned there was no Santa, I felt betraded, just as I had when I learned most of what I thought about religion was wrong. My whole world was a lie. And my children would not live that lie.

Oh and their parties are normally times when they all get drunk, so one who don't drink feels out of place. I really couldn't see how such actions gorified our Father or our Lord.

I did do my studies on Christmas before I quit. And from the Scriptures I found Him to be born on the first day of Tabernacles..Circumcised on the Last Great Day...baptised on the day of Trumpets etc. When I found no Scriptual proof for Christmas, and found alot of people depressed that time of year...I didn't fell good about doing it. My extended family continues to do Christmas and there has been times when we well enjoy their company that time of year...But my house has no tree...no gifts and best of all no santa.

I can understand why some people do Christmas and have no problems with it...because if He was born in Tabernacles...that makes Him concieved about Dec. 25 and in some parts of the world being concieved is being born...

To each their own...we all work out our own salvation.

 

[franklin]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
MERRY CHRISTMAS!!! AND, please let's refrain from graphic sexual patter---we have kids viewing this site!
And also, we are Christians---each of us is a true brother and sister. I know that discussions sometimes get impassioned---but the greatest two commandments are to love God, and to love each other. I'm sure that each of us can find a log to remove on SOME issue---none of us are perfect---I know that I certainly am not. But love requires us to respect each other, and to be patient and calm, even if we disagree. Respect to temper words like "lying" and "false deity" and "log" and "nits". Really, the ony one that ANY of us is required to answer to, is God. Are we all in agreement? 

Oh yes ben we are all in agreement to a point, but why all the sensitivity about the L word or "false deity"?  The preachers in most pulpits use those terms quite often, wouldn't you agree?  Of course you would.  The reason I started this thread was to reveal the truth about Christ-mass and how false and un-scriptural it really is.  So in place of the word lying I'll place the word deception, fair enough?   Children have been told from an early age that there is someone who "knows when you are sleeping, he knows when you're awake, he knows when you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake." One day that child's "god" (for indeed only the Lord God knows these things) is discovered to be non-existent. When a child is 6, 7 or 8 he finds out he has been lied (oh excuse me, I meant to say deceived) to by his parents and society. Their faith crumbles and a sacred trust is broken. Their parents represent the authority and security to which their very lives depend, and they find out now that there is not a jolly, fat Santa Clause with attributes as God.  The Devil has just now destroyed a belief in one who "knows when you are sleeping, awake, bad or good, etc.!" Now you take that same child to Church services, or teach this child about God, expecting them to believe in another who knows all about them. What would any of us expect of a child whose faith and trust were already attacked with such deception? If you have any involvement in such a deception, repent of it. Jesus said, "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones (children) which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." (Mat.18:6). The worship of Santa Claus is a sin of idolatry likened to that of witchcraft (1 Sam.15:23, Gal.5:19-21). Is this what you meant by children viewing this site Ben?  If so, let's teach them the truths that Jesus proclaimed and not the false deceptions of the world! 

 

 

[brewmama]

CHRISTIAN CHRISTMAS

To an article, sent out by a conservative Anglican group, claiming that the celebration of Christmas wasn’t Christian, because the day itself and some of the expressions were taken from paganism, Dr. William Tighe responded with some pique. Bill is a correspondent for Touchstone and a professor of history at Muhlenberg College in Allentown, Pennsylvania.

I pass it on for those who find such things interesting. I think rejecting the celebration of the birth of our Lord because it is an adaptation of a pagan festival — spoiling the Egyptians, as it has been called — is, even were this theory true, just a little bit loony.

I am speaking about all those people, pagans and “fundamentalists” alike who agree that “Christmas isn’t Christian”. It is all based on the idea, first invented in the late 17th Century, that the celebration of Christ’s nativity on December 25th, was an attempt to “Christianize” a pagan festival.

This “tale” has been all-but-completely exploded by Early Church historians and liturgical scholars over the past 40 years. It now seems likely that the Roman Emperor Aurelian (d. 275) invented and established the “Feast of the Unconquered Sun” on December 25th to provide a government-sponsored pagan festival on a day of significance to Christians in Rome. It is true that the first evidence we have for a liturgical celebration of Christ’s birth comes from ca. 338 AD, but the Latin Christian writer Tertullian gave December 25th as the date for Christ’s birth writing around 220 AD, a half-century before the Emperor Aurelian established his new pagan festival on December 25th, and that fact alone ought to give the “Christmas is pagan” crowd pause.

The best book on the subject is The Origins of the Liturgical Year, by Thomas J. Talley, an Episcopalian clergyman and retired professor at General Theological Seminary in New York. (The book is still in print and available from The Liturgical Press.) Talley’s argument is essentially this: that in the Second Century there is evidence that Christian thinkers in both the Greek East and Latin West of the Roman Empire wanted to establish the date on which Christ died, but they went about it in different ways.

Greek Christians wanted to “translate” into their own solar calendar the date 14 Nisan in the Jewish lunar calendar, on which date Christ died (on the Eve of Passover) according to John’s gospel. They simply chose the date 14 Artemision of the Greek calendar, both Nisan and Artemision being the months in their respective calendars in which the Spring equinox falls. When the Greek calendar was superseded by the Roman calendar around AD 300, 14 Artemision became 6 April.

Latin Christian thinkers wanted, rather, to establish the historical date on which Christ died, and came up with March 25, 29 AD. This is surely wrong; it can, in fact, have happened only in 30 or 33 AD, but that is what they thought. Next one has to consider a common Jewish belief at the time that all the great prophets died or were killed on the same day as that of their birth or conception, Talley continues. If Christ was conceived on the same calendar date as his supposed death, then one adds 9 months to 6 April and gets 6 January, which is Epiphany, or 9 months to 25 March, and gets 25 December, which is Christmas.

And in fact, in the Greek East, down till around 385 AD when they adopted it from the West, the Eastern Christians did not celebrate Christmas at all, only Epiphany, as Christ’s manifestation in the world — at his birth in Bethlehem, to the Three Magi, and at his Baptism in the Jordan, all in one feast. (The Armenian Church never has adopted Christmas, and still celebrates “ancient Epiphany” alone on January 7th.) St. John Chrysostom in a sermon preached in his native Antioch around 390 AD speaks of the “recent adoption” of the December 25th feast. And in the Latin West, December 25th alone was celebrated for many centuries, and when the West did adopt the January 6th Epiphany from the East it never made much of it.

The point of all this is that the idea that Christmas (December 25th) as a Christian festival was an adoption of a “pagan” festival is almost certainly false. It had a certain degree plausibility at one time, but is now completely indefensible. Ironically, the idea was invented in the late 17th Century by a couple of hyper-calvinistic scholars who wished to “prove” that Catholicism was really a pagan religion with a superficial Christian veneer, and in their notions about the origins of Christmas they thought that they had struck gold.

—David Mills
10:57 PM 

 

[True Believer]

14th December 2002 at 09:54 PM Ben johnson said this in Post #23

Hello, Franklin. I've become convicted that celebrating Halloween, by dressing as witches and devils, and by decorating with ghouls and ghosts and goblins, celebrates evil. The reason, is because the full meaning is absolutely attached to each of those symbols.

I am well aware of the Jeremiah verse; they worshipped trees as gods. The admonition, "Like a scarecrow, ...they cannot speak, ...can do no harm nor any good."

We must be careful about what we do---as Paul says, "if I eat meat, and it causes a brother to stumble, then I will not eat meat."

But---what about this "tree-decorating-thing"? Do you know anyone who worships trees, who take the decorating seriously? Do you know anyone, who KNOWS ANYONE who does?

Thousands of years have separated the practice from the meaning. Today, there is NO pagan meaning, NO worshipping, none. To protest the practice, (which you correctly pointed out was pagan), today you must first TEACH what the practice WAS!

Why bother? There is no pagan meaning associated with it, there is no "stumbling block" to anyone, there is no secondary meaning. Today a decorated tree has no more meaning than a string of colored lights fastened to the roofline. No more meaning than a piece of flimsy cardboard, festooned with colorful ink, placed into an envelope and sent to convey "happiness, joy and best wishes".

Because the evil connection very much exists with Halloween icons, Christians should not endorse nor sanction them by use.

But---no such evil connection exists in 2003 for Christmas trees, yule logs, Easter eggs, mistle-toe, holly, egg-nog, hot spiced cider, chest-nuts roasting on an open fire, Jack frost nipping at your sill...

There is a time for everything, and a season for everything under Heaven. A time to laugh, a time to cry; a time to live, a time to die. And, I think, there is a time to fight, to stand for what is righteous and worth fighting for; there is also a time to relax and ignore that which does no harm.

Am I making sense?

This sounds like Justifying to me. In America most of the old ways and religions aren't practiced but through out Europe they do still exist and many of the cerimonial traditions associated with Christmas have to do with the keeping of evil spirits away just as the rites of Halloween do they were used to protect oneself and ones family from Evil Spirits. Today in the Scandinavian countries Druids still Florish  (they worship Trees) With the "proofs of where the date came from and the scriptures in the Bible that only Show pagans celebrating Birthdays is it wize to see how close to the fire we can get and not get burned. And using these pagan Symbols is Idolatry which is definetally condemned in the Scriptures.So are we self indulgent hippocrites or are we God's children seeking to please him

 

[OldShepherd]

Brewmama,

You notice how whenever anything which is documented with historical evidence, which contradicts the finger pointing, hysterical, condemnation of eveyone but their own little groups, is totally ignored and they just keep on aposting their accusations, without one single shred of proof. Kinda reminds me of chicken little, instead of "The sky is falling" They are crying, "Christianity is pagan!""Christianity is pagan!" "Christianity is pagan!"

• 
  CHRISTIAN CHRISTMAS

• 
  
  To an article, sent out by a conservative Anglican group, claiming that the celebration of Christmas wasn’t Christian, because the day itself and some of the expressions were taken from paganism, Dr. William Tighe responded with some pique. Bill is a correspondent for Touchstone and a professor of history at Muhlenberg College in Allentown, Pennsylvania.
  
  I pass it on for those who find such things interesting. I think rejecting the celebration of the birth of our Lord because it is an adaptation of a pagan festival — spoiling the Egyptians, as it has been called — is, even were this theory true, just a little bit loony.
  
  I am speaking about all those people, pagans and “fundamentalists” alike who agree that “Christmas isn’t Christian”. It is all based on the idea, first invented in the late 17th Century, that the celebration of Christ’s nativity on December 25th, was an attempt to “Christianize” a pagan festival.
  
  This “tale” has been all-but-completely exploded by Early Church historians and liturgical scholars over the past 40 years. It now seems likely that the Roman Emperor Aurelian (d. 275) invented and established the “Feast of the Unconquered Sun” on December 25th to provide a government-sponsored pagan festival on a day of significance to Christians in Rome. It is true that the first evidence we have for a liturgical celebration of Christ’s birth comes from ca. 338 AD, but the Latin Christian writer Tertullian gave December 25th as the date for Christ’s birth writing around 220 AD, a half-century before the Emperor Aurelian established his new pagan festival on December 25th, and that fact alone ought to give the “Christmas is pagan” crowd pause.
  
  The best book on the subject is The Origins of the Liturgical Year, by Thomas J. Talley, an Episcopalian clergyman and retired professor at General Theological Seminary in New York. (The book is still in print and available from The Liturgical Press.) Talley’s argument is essentially this: that in the Second Century there is evidence that Christian thinkers in both the Greek East and Latin West of the Roman Empire wanted to establish the date on which Christ died, but they went about it in different ways.
  
  Greek Christians wanted to “translate” into their own solar calendar the date 14 Nisan in the Jewish lunar calendar, on which date Christ died (on the Eve of Passover) according to John’s gospel. They simply chose the date 14 Artemision of the Greek calendar, both Nisan and Artemision being the months in their respective calendars in which the Spring equinox falls. When the Greek calendar was superseded by the Roman calendar around AD 300, 14 Artemision became 6 April.
  
  Latin Christian thinkers wanted, rather, to establish the historical date on which Christ died, and came up with March 25, 29 AD. This is surely wrong; it can, in fact, have happened only in 30 or 33 AD, but that is what they thought. Next one has to consider a common Jewish belief at the time that all the great prophets died or were killed on the same day as that of their birth or conception, Talley continues. If Christ was conceived on the same calendar date as his supposed death, then one adds 9 months to 6 April and gets 6 January, which is Epiphany, or 9 months to 25 March, and gets 25 December, which is Christmas.
  
  And in fact, in the Greek East, down till around 385 AD when they adopted it from the West, the Eastern Christians did not celebrate Christmas at all, only Epiphany, as Christ’s manifestation in the world — at his birth in Bethlehem, to the Three Magi, and at his Baptism in the Jordan, all in one feast. (The Armenian Church never has adopted Christmas, and still celebrates “ancient Epiphany” alone on January 7th.) St. John Chrysostom in a sermon preached in his native Antioch around 390 AD speaks of the “recent adoption” of the December 25th feast. And in the Latin West, December 25th alone was celebrated for many centuries, and when the West did adopt the January 6th Epiphany from the East it never made much of it.
  
  The point of all this is that the idea that Christmas (December 25th) as a Christian festival was an adoption of a “pagan” festival is almost certainly false. It had a certain degree plausibility at one time, but is now completely indefensible. Ironically, the idea was invented in the late 17th Century by a couple of hyper-calvinistic scholars who wished to “prove” that Catholicism was really a pagan religion with a superficial Christian veneer, and in their notions about the origins of Christmas they thought that they had struck gold.
  
  David Mills
  10:57 PM

 

[jodrey]

13th December 2002 at 02:32 PM franklin said this in Post #1

What does Christmas have to do with Jesus?

Christmas is a very popular holiday. However, as is often the case, what is popular is not always right, and what is right is not always popular. "Christmas" is short for "Christ mass", or "mass for Christ". Is Christmas just another name for an old Pagen holiday?  Is Christmas really a celebration for the birth of Jesus Christ?  What does Santa Clause, reindeer, and the North Pole have to do with Jesus Christ? 

Some will argue for the "keeping of Christmas" on the basis of "giving the kiddies a good time." But why do this under the cloak of honoring the Savior's birth? Why is it necessary to drag in His Holy name in connection with what takes place at this season of carnal jollification? As Jesus once asked, in Luke 6:46:
"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"  
   
 

I'd argue for the "keeping of Christmas" because there are those who know the real meaning. I don't even plan on telling my kids anything about Santa Claus, but I will certainly explain about the Savior's birth, even if Christmas is not the aniversary for it. Christ should be exalted at all times of the year, and we're lucky to have it twice a year in this wicked world -- we'd be lucky to have it only once a year.

 

[Osiris]

The scriptures don't reveal the date when Jesus was born because maybe that wasnt important.
Usually the people that celebrated birthdays in those days were pharaoes & kings.
So the whole idea of birthdays is pagan because you are worshipping yourself.
And the whole idea of Christmas, which is really the winter solstice but with a different name & which has a pagan attribute of birthdays, is not justified by the bible.

One of the main reasons christmas exists today is because back in the day, the leaders of christianity wanted to convert the pagans but they couldn't because they wanted to keep their celebrations. So what they did was "If you can't beat them, and don't want to join them, twist it a little bit so it fits both."

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 07:18 AM Osiris said this in Post #47

The scriptures don't reveal the date when Jesus was born because maybe that wasnt important.
Usually the people that celebrated birthdays in those days were pharaoes & kings.
So the whole idea of birthdays is pagan because you are worshipping yourself.
And the whole idea of Christmas, which is really the winter solstice but with a different name & which has a pagan attribute of birthdays, is not justified by the bible.

One of the main reasons christmas exists today is because back in the day, the leaders of christianity wanted to convert the pagans but they couldn't because they wanted to keep their celebrations. So what they did was "If you can't beat them, and don't want to join them, twist it a little bit so it fits both."

And yet another voice chimes in with the tired old refrain, "Christmas is pagan.","Christmas is pagan.", "Christmas is pagan.". Every statment in this post is false! Should you trouble yourself to scroll up two posts you will see an article which offers real evidence and documentation that Christmas is NOT in fact of pagan origin. Here are the specific points.

1. The fact that only one or two birthdays are mentioned in scripture does NOT prove that no one else celebrated their birthday. An argument from silence only proves silence.
2. The accusation that someone who celebrates a birthday is worshippoing themself is a false accusation. No proof offered that anyone who enjoys a special meal or receives a present is worshipping anything.
3. Christmas is NOT the winter solstice, which occurs in 2003 on December 21.
4. No proof that observing a birthday has pagan attributes.
5. No proof that early Christian leaders changed or added anything to appease pagans.

Just like chicken little shrieking "The sky is falling." the nay sayers parrot and repeat the unproven, undocumented accusations of their leaders.

In the first few hundred years of Christianity hundreds upon hundreds of Christians were horribly tortured and killed rather than worship pagan idols and practice other pagan rites. But the modern opponents claim that the sons and daughters and grandsons and grand daughters of those early martyrs stood silently by and said nothing, did nothing while these same pagan practices were supposedly incorporated into the faith. Where is the proof? Where is the evidence? Where is the documentation?

 

[Osiris]

pagan practices were supposedly incorporated into the faith. Where is the proof? Where is the evidence? Where is the documentation?

christmas tree? the christmas date (solstice)

Let's put it this way, if you were deserted in an island with just a bible, from the information that only the bible has, you woudln't celebrate christmas, and you wouldn't know when jesus was born. People hold christmas dear because that's a tradition that they have lived with since they were children. Same thing with celebrating birthdays or celebrating anything at all, these are traditions that are made by man, you don't see animals celebrating things.

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 08:39 AM Osiris said this in Post #49


christmas tree? the christmas date (solstice)

Let's put it this way, if you were deserted in an island with just a bible, from the information that only the bible has, you woudln't celebrate christmas, and you wouldn't know when jesus was born. People hold christmas dear because that's a tradition that they have lived with since they were children. Same thing with celebrating birthdays or celebrating anything at all, these are traditions that are made by man, you don't see animals celebrating things.

"christmas tree? the christmas date (solstice)" Irrelevant, you have NOT posted any proof of either one! And as I pointed out Christmas is NOT observed at the winter solstice. The solstice is always 2 to 4 days earlier. The ancients could see the sun as well as we can and knew when it was at it lowest ,southern most, point. If they had wanted it to be at the solstice it would have been on that day.

Stranded on a desert island irrelevant. How do you know why everybody observes anything? Since you can't support your first argument you switch to a different one.

The argument from animals is a logical fallacy. If we are going to imitate animals should we kill anyone who approaches our mate or children as many animals do? You have no valid argument so you resort to the ridiculous.

 

[lared]

Osiris,
Thank-you for your information and explanations. You must be a very good teacher. Having lived in South America for a period of time, I was able to see first hand, the intermingling of ancient Incan religious rites with christendom, something that they take for granted and defend. Same as in North America and Europe.
The illustration of being stranded on an island is very good and I plan to use that in the future.
Thank-you for your help,
Sincerely,
Lared

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 09:10 AM lared said this in Post #51

Osiris,
Thank-you for your information and explanations. You must be a very good teacher. Having lived in South America for a period of time, I was able to see first hand, the intermingling of ancient Incan religious rites with christendom, something that they take for granted and defend. Same as in North America and Europe.
The illustration of being stranded on an island is very good and I plan to use that in the future.
Thank-you for your help,
Sincerely,
Lared

No you did NOT see, "the intermingling of ancient Incan religious rites with christendom!" What you might have seen is SOME churches mixing or mingling SOME Incan religious rites with their practices.

And what you may or may not have seen in South America is NOT proof or evidence that any church or churches in North America or Europe do anything . I advise you to carefully review Rule Number #1 before making further blanket condemnations of "Christendom".

 

[lared]

Wonder,
I agree with you. I don't remember anything about Santa in the Bible. And yet many children are told that Santa is watching and checking to see if they are naughty or nice. And then if they have been good, they get alot of gifts. It always made me feel sad for children of poor families that tried to be good.
Sincerely, Lared

 

[OldShepherd]

Yesterday at 03:42 PM lared said this in Post #53

Wonder,
I agree with you. I don't remember anything about Santa in the Bible. And yet many children are told that Santa is watching and checking to see if they are naughty or nice. And then if they have been good, they get alot of gifts. It always made me feel sad for children of poor families that tried to be good.
Sincerely, Lared

Lared, I agree with you partially, "I don't remember anything about Santa in the Bible.", either. But also I don't remember ever hearing or seeing anything about Santa in any church service, Bible study/discussion/class, or any statement of faith. And I have been attending church for over 5 decades. So maybe some of you folks who are doing all this accusing of Christianity can show us Christians where we have ever acknowledged Santa in any way with our faith, belief, and practice. If not then, how would you characterize all these, evidently false accusations about Santa and Christianity?

And yet many children are told that Santa is watching and checking to see if they are naughty or nice. And then if they have been good, they get alot of gifts.

I know that there is a song which states that, but do you have any proof whatosever that any Christian has ever told their children that? Perhaps you should review the 9th commandment.

It always made me feel sad for children of poor families that tried to be good.

And exactly how many "poor families" do you have proof that actually told their children that and their children "tried to be good"?
I have seen Santas in department stores, on TV, in newspapers, but I have never seen or heard of a Santa in a worship service or Bible study.

 

[Didymus]

oh dear i have bad news for you i have seen Santa in churches all my life. usually he comes in after the children s Christmas program to hand our boxes of hard candy. you could sit on his lap and talk to him too sometimes. the church next door to my house where we used to go has gonne one step further. they have an anuual christmas party where Santa and Mrs. Claus are the hosts. there is a Christmas ornament make it table and a cookie sale and decorated rooms. i have never been
and I don t know where you live but i have seen poor kids make out very well at Christmas time because everyone feels sorry for them. it s hard to explain to your kid why they can t have an expexnsive toy and the welfare child next door has it. and usually breaks it before Easter. i don t begrudge the children the toys i just wish they valued them

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 08:59 AM Didymus said this in Post #55

oh dear i have bad news for you i have seen Santa in churches all my life. usually he comes in after the children s Christmas program to hand our boxes of hard candy. you could sit on his lap and talk to him too sometimes. the church next door to my house where we used to go has gonne one step further. they have an anuual christmas party where Santa and Mrs. Claus are the hosts. there is a Christmas ornament make it table and a cookie sale and decorated rooms. i have never been
and I don t know where you live but i have seen poor kids make out very well at Christmas time because everyone feels sorry for them. it s hard to explain to your kid why they can t have an expexnsive toy and the welfare child next door has it. and usually breaks it before Easter. i don t begrudge the children the toys i just wish they valued them

Oh dear me, you didn't read my post and you did NOT address what I actually wrote. Let me add another question, where is any proof that any Christian ever told children that Santa was real?

 

[lared]

Didymus,

Santa is a very real person to most church going children. That is true....a child could sit on his lap and read off a list of all the things he would like, which are usually toys. And of course Santa would always ask if they had been naughty. (Sort of perverse...no?)

And yet Santa is never mentioned in the Bible though in some lands he is called Saint Nicholas. Even the title Santa, I believe refers that he is a saint.

And then there are the elves, who are his helpers. We were always told that they were spies, watching you through the year.

Other holidays are interesting as well.


One memory I have is of a nun dressed as witch chasing the school children around the church grounds on Halloween. The church was high on a hill with a cemetary in the forefront. It was a cloudy day and very eerie.

And yet, when I was in South America and mentioned the festivity of Halloween....no one could believe it. That church going people involved themselves in such a thing.

Sincerely, Lared

BTW, I did win a deck of cards for best costume at the yearly Halloween party in the church basement when I was a kid.

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 02:17 PM lared said this in Post #57

Santa is a very real person to most church going children. That is true....a child could sit on his lap and read off a list of all the things he would like, which are usually toys. And of course Santa would always ask if they had been naughty. (Sort of perverse...no?)

What qualifies you to speak for "most church going children"? Have you conducted a nationwide survey? If so my views were not solicited, nor anyone I know.

I seem to see a bit of hypocrisy here. Aren't you the person who posted that you saw first hand "the intermingling of ancient Incan religious rites with christendom!"? And these same people couldn't believe when you mentioned Halloween? And OBTW this is another thing I have never seen in any worship service, prayer group, Bible study etc.. Although I have seen some Christians participate on their own.

This whole line of criticism is absurd. None of this is part of the faith and practices of any mainline denomination, just people with a chip on their shoulder, trying to make themselves look good by scraping around trying to find something to criticize. "Oh look we're good and their bad because we don't do this." Meanwhile ignoring the log in their own eye.

 

[Osiris]

15th December 2002 at 11:06 PM kern said this in Post #31



So? Just because something is related to pagan religions does not mean that it cannot be used in Christianity.

Pagans sang hymns in their services -- I suppose Christians may not sing hymns in theirs?

As I said before, a Pagan holiday is a good choice to celebrate Christ's birthday because it makes it harder for people to try to be both Pagan and Christian at the same time (this isn't relevant anymore, but may have been when Christmas first was celebrated).

-Chris

Prostitution is bad, why doesn't christianity adopt it (with a differnt name, christian-like name) so it makes it harder for people to be christians and bad people at the same time? Or why doesn't the church start selling illegal drugs to praise the lord so drug dealers can praise him too?

according to your point of view, this would be allowed...

PS.

lared, you are welcome

 

[Osiris]

Today at 12:17 AM lared said this in Post #57

One memory I have is of a nun dressed as witch chasing the school children around the church grounds on Halloween. The church was high on a hill with a cemetary in the forefront. It was a cloudy day and very eerie.

And yet, when I was in South America and mentioned the festivity of Halloween....no one could believe it. That church going people involved themselves in such a thing.

Sincerely, Lared

BTW, I did win a deck of cards for best costume at the yearly Halloween party in the church basement when I was a kid.

That is true lared. Sometimes religion gets mixed with culture. Culture of groups of people that might be wrong according to the bible. People inside this culture might not find anything wrong with it, but if you were to analyze it from a different perspective like the people in South America did, they would find the flaws.