What does Christmas have to do with Jesus?
- Thread starter franklin
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Hello, Franklin. I've become convicted that celebrating Halloween, by dressing as witches and devils, and by decorating with ghouls and ghosts and goblins, celebrates evil. The reason, is because the full meaning is absolutely attached to each of those symbols.
I am well aware of the Jeremiah verse; they worshipped trees as gods. The admonition, "Like a scarecrow, ...they cannot speak, ...can do no harm nor any good."
We must be careful about what we do---as Paul says, "if I eat meat, and it causes a brother to stumble, then I will not eat meat."
But---what about this "tree-decorating-thing"? Do you know anyone who worships trees, who take the decorating seriously? Do you know anyone, who KNOWS ANYONE who does?
Thousands of years have separated the practice from the meaning. Today, there is NO pagan meaning, NO worshipping, none. To protest the practice, (which you correctly pointed out was pagan), today you must first TEACH what the practice WAS!
Why bother? There is no pagan meaning associated with it, there is no "stumbling block" to anyone, there is no secondary meaning. Today a decorated tree has no more meaning than a string of colored lights fastened to the roofline. No more meaning than a piece of flimsy cardboard, festooned with colorful ink, placed into an envelope and sent to convey "happiness, joy and best wishes".
Because the evil connection very much exists with Halloween icons, Christians should not endorse nor sanction them by use.
But---no such evil connection exists in 2003 for Christmas trees, yule logs, Easter eggs, mistle-toe, holly, egg-nog, hot spiced cider, chest-nuts roasting on an open fire, Jack frost nipping at your sill...
There is a time for everything, and a season for everything under Heaven. A time to laugh, a time to cry; a time to live, a time to die. And, I think, there is a time to fight, to stand for what is righteous and worth fighting for; there is also a time to relax and ignore that which does no harm.
Am I making sense?
I am well aware of the Jeremiah verse; they worshipped trees as gods. The admonition, "Like a scarecrow, ...they cannot speak, ...can do no harm nor any good."
We must be careful about what we do---as Paul says, "if I eat meat, and it causes a brother to stumble, then I will not eat meat."
But---what about this "tree-decorating-thing"? Do you know anyone who worships trees, who take the decorating seriously? Do you know anyone, who KNOWS ANYONE who does?
Thousands of years have separated the practice from the meaning. Today, there is NO pagan meaning, NO worshipping, none. To protest the practice, (which you correctly pointed out was pagan), today you must first TEACH what the practice WAS!
Why bother? There is no pagan meaning associated with it, there is no "stumbling block" to anyone, there is no secondary meaning. Today a decorated tree has no more meaning than a string of colored lights fastened to the roofline. No more meaning than a piece of flimsy cardboard, festooned with colorful ink, placed into an envelope and sent to convey "happiness, joy and best wishes".
Because the evil connection very much exists with Halloween icons, Christians should not endorse nor sanction them by use.
But---no such evil connection exists in 2003 for Christmas trees, yule logs, Easter eggs, mistle-toe, holly, egg-nog, hot spiced cider, chest-nuts roasting on an open fire, Jack frost nipping at your sill...
There is a time for everything, and a season for everything under Heaven. A time to laugh, a time to cry; a time to live, a time to die. And, I think, there is a time to fight, to stand for what is righteous and worth fighting for; there is also a time to relax and ignore that which does no harm.
Am I making sense?
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OldShepherd
Zaqunraah
Franklin,
It has been pointed out to me that my response to you, If you don't know what you are talking about maybe you should keep silent. might seem a little strong or harsh if that is the case then I apologize. But let me point I was using YOUR words from the post I quoted in my response.
It has been pointed out to me that my response to you, If you don't know what you are talking about maybe you should keep silent. might seem a little strong or harsh if that is the case then I apologize. But let me point I was using YOUR words from the post I quoted in my response.
If we should be silent when the Bible is silent, then we should also be silent when we do not have truthful, factual information about the subject under discussion, rather than posting false information and misquoted scriptures. And I will certainly do that.
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Evangelion
<b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>
From the New English Translation:
Romans 14:1-12.
Now receive the one who is weak in the faith, and do not have disputes over differing opinions.
One person believes in eating everything, but the weak person eats only vegetables.
The one who eats everything must not despise the one who does not, and the one who abstains must not judge the one who eats everything, for God has accepted him.
Who are you to pass judgment on anothers servant? Before his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
One person regards one day holier than other days, and another regards them all alike.
Each must be fully convinced in his own mind.
The one who observes the day, does it for the Lord. The one who eats, eats for the Lord, because he gives thanks to God, and the one who abstains from eating, abstains for the Lord, and he gives thanks to God.
For none of us lives for himself and none dies for himself.
If we live, we live for the Lord; if we die, we die for the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lords.
For this reason Christ died and returned to life, so that he may be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
But why do you judge your brother or sister?
Or again, why do you despise your brother or sister? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
For it is written, As I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow to me, and every tongue will give praise to God.
Therefore, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
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Here's a piece about X'MAS that I was fortunately permitted to reprint. I hope eveyone likes it.
X'MAS
by A. W. Pink
"Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen for the CUSTOMS of the people are vain." (Jer. 10:1-3)
Christmas is coming! Quite so; but what is "Christmas"? Does not the very term itself denote its source"Christ-mass." Thus it is of Romish origin, brought over from Paganism. But, says someone, Christmas is the time when we commemorate the Savior's birth. It is? And who authorized such commemoration? Certainly God did not. The Redeemer bade His disciples "remember" Him in His death, but there is not a word in Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation which tells us to celebrate His birth. Moreover, who knows when, in what month, He was born? The Bible is silent thereon. Is it without reason that the only "birthday" commemorations mentioned in God's Word are Pharaoh's (Gen. 40:20) and Herod's (Matt. 14:6)? Is this recorded "for our learning"? If so, have we prayerfully taken it to heart?
And who is it that celebrates "Christmas"? The whole "civilized world." Millions who make no profession of faith in the blood of the Lamb, who "despise and reject Him," and millions more who while claiming to be His followers yet in works deny Him, join in merrymaking under the pretense of honoring the birth of the Lord Jesus. Putting it on its lowest ground, we would ask, Is it fitting that His friends should unite with His enemies in a worldly round of fleshly gratification? Does any truly born-again soul really think that He whom the world cast out is either pleased or glorified by such participation in the world's joys? Verily, "the customs of the people are vain"; and it is written, "Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil." (Ex. 23:2)
Some will argue for the "keeping of Christmas" on the ground of "giving the kiddies a good time." But why do this under the cloak of honoring the Savior's birth? Why is it necessary to drag in His holy name in connection with what takes place at that season of carnal jollification? Is this taking the little ones with you out of Egypt (Ex. 10:9, 10) a type of the world, or is it not plainly mingling with the present-day Egyptians in their "pleasures of sin for a season"? (Heb. 11:25) Scripture says, "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." (Prov. 22:6) Scripture does command God's people to bring up their children "in the nurture and admonition of the Lord" (Eph. 6:4), but where does it stipulate that it is our duty to give the little ones a "good time"? Do we ever give the children "a good time" when we engage in anything upon which we cannot fittingly ask the Lord's blessing?
There are those who do abstain from some of the grosser carnalities of the "festive season," yet are they nevertheless in cruel bondage to the prevailing custom of "Christmas" namely that of exchanging "gifts." We say "exchanging" for that is what it really amounts to in many cases. A list is kept, either on paper or in memory, of those from whom gifts were received last year, and that for the purpose of returning the compliment this year. Nor is this all: great care has to be taken that the "gift" made to the friend is worth as much in dollars and cents as the one they expect to receive from him or her. Thus, with many who can ill afford it, a considerable sum has to be set aside each year with which to purchase things simply to send them out in return for others which are likely to be received. Thus a burden has been bound on them which not a few find hard to bear.
But what are we to do? If we fail to send out "gifts" our friends will think hard of us, probably deem us stingy and miserly. The honest course is to go to the trouble of notifying themby letter if at a distancethat from now on you do not propose to send out any more "Christmas gifts" as such. Give your reasons. State plainly that you have been brought to see that "Christmas merry-making" is entirely a thing of the world, devoid of any Scriptural warrant; that it is a Romish institution, and now that you see this, you dare no longer have any fellowship with it (Eph. 5:11); that you are the Lord's "free man" (1 Cor. 7:22), and therefore you refuse to be in bondage to a costly custom imposed by the world.
What about sending out "Christmas cards" with a text of Scripture on them? That also is an abomination in the sight of God. Why? Because His Word expressly forbids all unholy mixtures; Deut. 22:10, 11 typified this. What do we mean by an "unholy mixture"? This: the linking together of the pure Word of God with the Romish "Christ-mass." By all means send cards (preferably at some other time of the year) to your ungodly friends, and Christians too, with a verse of Scripture, but not with "Christmas" on it. What would you think of a printed program of a vaudeville having Isa. 53:5 at the foot of it? Why, that it was altogether out of place, highly incongruous. But in the sight of God the circus and the theatre are far less obnoxious than the "Christmas celebration" of Romish and Protestant "churches." Why? Because the latter are done under the cover of the holy name of Christ; the former are not.
"But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day." (Prov. 4:18) Where there is a heart that really desires to please the Lord, He graciously grants increasing knowledge of His will. If He is pleased to use these lines in opening the eyes of some of His dear people to recognize what is a growing evil, and to show them that they have been dishonoring Christ by linking the name of the Man of Sorrows (and such He was, when on earth) with a "Merry Christmas," then join with the writer in a repentant confessing of this sin to God, seeking His grace for complete deliverance from it, and praise Him for the light which He has granted you concerning it.
Beloved fellow-Christian, "The coming of the Lord draweth nigh." (Jas. 5:8) Do we really believe this? Believe it not because the Papacy is regaining its lost temporal power, but because God says so"for we walk by faith, not by sight." (2 Cor. 5:7) If so, what effects does such believing have on our walk? This may be your last Christmas on earth. During it the Lord may descend from heaven with a shout to gather His own to Himself. Would you like to be summoned from a "Christmas party" to meet Him in the air? The call for the moment is, "Go ye out to meet Him" (Matt. 25:6) out from a Godless Christendom, out from the Christ-deserted "churches," out from the horrible burlesque of "religion" which now masquerades under His name.
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (2 Cor. 5:10) How solemn and searching! The Lord Jesus declared that "every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." (Matt. 12:36) If every "idle word" is going to be taken note of, then most assuredly will be every wasted energy, every wasted dollar, every wasted hour! Should we still be on earth when the closing days of this year arrive, let writer and reader earnestly seek grace to live and act with the judgment-seat of Christ before us. His "well done" will be ample compensation for the sneers and taunts which we may now receive from Christless souls.
Does any Christian reader imagine for a moment that when he or she shall stand before their holy Lord, that they will regret having lived "too strictly" on earth? Is there the slightest danger of His reproving any of His own because they were "too extreme" in "abstaining from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul." (1 Peter 2:11) ? We may gain the good will and good word of worldly religionists today by our compromisings on "little (?) points," but shall we receive His smile of approval on that Day? Oh to be more concerned about what He thinks, and less concerned about what perishing mortals think.
"Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil." (Ex. 23:2) Ah, it is an easy thing to float with the tide of popular opinion; but it takes much grace, diligently sought from God, to swim against it. Yet that is what the heir of heaven is called on to do: to "Be not conformed to this world" (Rom. 12:2), to deny self, take up the cross, and follow a rejected Christ. How sorely does both writer and reader need to heed that word of the Savior, "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown." (Rev. 3:11) Oh that each of us may be able to truthfully say, "I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep Thy Word." (Psa. 119:101)
Our final word is to the pastors. To you the Word of the Lord is, "Be thou an example of believers in word, in deportment, in love in spirit, in faith, in purity." (1 Tim. 4:12) Is it not true that the most corrupt "churches" you know of, where almost every fundamental of the faith is denied, will have their "Christmas celebrations?" Will you imitate them? Are you consistent to protest against unscriptural methods of "raising money," and then to sanction unscriptural "Christmas services"? Seek grace to firmly but lovingly set God's Truth on this subject before your people, and announce that you can have no part in following Pagan, Romish, and Worldly customs.
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For those who are unfamiliar with him, Arthur Walkington Pink believed whole-heartedly in "PREDESTINED-ELECTION". His books include "The Nature of God", and "The Soveriegnty of God". In these books (and others) he strives to present the argument that "we have been PRE-CHOSEN by God, based on reasons perhaps only He knows; those God has CHOSEN will be saved irresistibly (and can do NOTHING but persevere in Him and remain saved---ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED by predestination); those God intends for PERDITION are hopelessly condemned, there is no CHANCE for salvation".
I of course understand the Scriptures to be saying something quite different. Each of us is given a choice to receive Christ, or not, and to remain in Him, while we live.
I do not think our "participating in Christmas" amounts to "mixing with heathenism"; I stand by the conviction, that without Christmas, millions would not be exposed to the Gospel of Christ.
I respectfully submit, with great sensitivity, not intending to offend (so please find it in your heart to forgive me if I do offend you)---that it is possible to become so wrapped up in "trappings", as to "submit ourselves to decrees such as 'do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!'---which all refer to things destined to perish with the using)---in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men. These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and sef abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence." Col2:20-23
In short, we can become so wrapped up in "keeping the LETTER", that we forget the INTENT.
That is, of course, my humble opinion...
I of course understand the Scriptures to be saying something quite different. Each of us is given a choice to receive Christ, or not, and to remain in Him, while we live.
I do not think our "participating in Christmas" amounts to "mixing with heathenism"; I stand by the conviction, that without Christmas, millions would not be exposed to the Gospel of Christ.
I respectfully submit, with great sensitivity, not intending to offend (so please find it in your heart to forgive me if I do offend you)---that it is possible to become so wrapped up in "trappings", as to "submit ourselves to decrees such as 'do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!'---which all refer to things destined to perish with the using)---in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men. These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and sef abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence." Col2:20-23
In short, we can become so wrapped up in "keeping the LETTER", that we forget the INTENT.
That is, of course, my humble opinion...
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December 25th is the birthday of nearly every pagan god ever invented! The birth of the Sun god, Mirtha, was on December 25th. In Egypt, the Sun god, Osiris, was born December 25th. In the Syrian religion, the Sun god, Adonis, was born December 25th. In the Mithraic religions, they celebrated the "Birthday of the Invincible Sun" on December 25th. In Rome, they celebrated the "Birthday of the Unconquerable Sun" on December 25th . Also, Nimrods birthdays was on December 25th! Who knows, maybe Saddam Hussain's birthday will be added to the Dec 25th list!?
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OldShepherd
Zaqunraah
Prove it! And not what some unknown JW scholars says. Things like Encyclopedia Britannica, Americana,, etc. I happen to know from extensive research that there is absolutely no historical written information on the Mithras cult. The only thing known about it, is from iconography, i.e. statuary, carvings, paintings, etc. They left no written records. NONE! AND even if you could prove it. So what? How does that prove anything at all about the death of Jesus?Originally posted by franklin
December 25th is the birthday of nearly every pagan god ever invented! The birth of the Sun god, Mirtha, was on December 25th. In Egypt, the Sun god, Osiris, was born December 25th. In the Syrian religion, the Sun god, Adonis, was born December 25th. In the Mithraic religions, they celebrated the "Birthday of the Invincible Sun" on December 25th. In Rome, they celebrated the "Birthday of the Unconquerable Sun" on December 25th . Also, Nimrods birthdays was on December 25th! Who knows, maybe Saddam Hussain's birthday will be added to the Dec 25th list!?
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So? Just because something is related to pagan religions does not mean that it cannot be used in Christianity.
Pagans sang hymns in their services -- I suppose Christians may not sing hymns in theirs?
As I said before, a Pagan holiday is a good choice to celebrate Christ's birthday because it makes it harder for people to try to be both Pagan and Christian at the same time (this isn't relevant anymore, but may have been when Christmas first was celebrated).
-Chris
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Originally posted by franklin [/i]
What does Christmas have to do with Jesus?
Eph replies....
From a Scriptural standpoint....NOTHING...!
From a Traditional standpoint...It today ....is the agreed upon day of celebration of his birth..!
Scripturally Jesus was actually born in Sept..early Oct...At the Feast of Trumpets..!
What does Christmas have to do with Jesus?
Eph replies....
From a Scriptural standpoint....NOTHING...!
From a Traditional standpoint...It today ....is the agreed upon day of celebration of his birth..!
Scripturally Jesus was actually born in Sept..early Oct...At the Feast of Trumpets..!
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I wonder if the Israelites who just came out of Egypt and made a golden calf and danced around it......felt the same way.
Let us take something pagan and incorporate it in our worship!
How do you think God would feel about that? What do the Scriptures say?
Let us take something pagan and incorporate it in our worship!
How do you think God would feel about that? What do the Scriptures say?
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JesusServant
do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER
As long as I celebrate Jesus then I am satisfied. Santa is a good thing...it makes children smile and that is important.
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That sounds like what Aaron said......
(Exodus 32:5) When Aaron got to see this, he went to building an altar before it. Finally Aaron called out and said: "There is a festival to Jehovah tomorrow."
As long as I celebrate the LORD, I am satisfied. The golden calf is a good thing, it makes the Israelites smile and that is important.
(Exodus 32:5) When Aaron got to see this, he went to building an altar before it. Finally Aaron called out and said: "There is a festival to Jehovah tomorrow."
As long as I celebrate the LORD, I am satisfied. The golden calf is a good thing, it makes the Israelites smile and that is important.
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So you're happy about lying to your children and encouraging worship of a false deity - because children do worship this icon, you know. And how will they feel when they do find out that they've been lied to? What then? Isn't childhood supposed to be a time of innocence and trust? Aren't you betraying that innocence and breaking that trust?
I'm not against Santa as a fun figure, much the same as Mickey Mouse or Bugs Bunny are fun figures - children are able to enjoy these cartoons without anybody having to pretend that they are real. Can't we do the same with Santa?
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Originally posted by Zipporah [/i]
So you're happy about lying to your children and encouraging worship of a false deity - because children do worship this icon, you know. And how will they feel when they do find out that they've been lied to? What then? Isn't childhood supposed to be a time of innocence and trust? Aren't you betraying that innocence and breaking that trust?
I'm not against Santa as a fun figure, much the same as Mickey Mouse or Bugs Bunny are fun figures - children are able to enjoy these cartoons without anybody having to pretend that they are real. Can't we do the same with Santa?
Eph kindly...lovinly..Christianly asks...??
My dearest Zipporah...did you ever lie to your children or any child if you have none of your own....?
Did a 4 yr old ever ask you where babies come from..?
Did you lie to them and tell them the stork brought them...ect ect !
...OR did you tell them the TRUTH and be Honest about the physics of Human reproduction?......
How "honest" are you Zipporah if a child asks you that question....?
Did you ever lie to a child..?
Do you EVER...lie elsewhere in life Zipporah..??
Ever wear makeup on your face to hide the truth about your looks..Smaller sized shoes..to hide big feet....Maybe some dental work..to hide the truth about a bad tooth..??
Don't play the " never lie to people " card...OK...
It's PURE garbage to lay that on people..when I'm sure your a liar in some way..Like we ALL are...So lets not throw any first stones around...at others..about Santa...!
Lets make darn sure we have the LOG out of our eyes before we start pickin at others "nits"...!
So you're happy about lying to your children and encouraging worship of a false deity - because children do worship this icon, you know. And how will they feel when they do find out that they've been lied to? What then? Isn't childhood supposed to be a time of innocence and trust? Aren't you betraying that innocence and breaking that trust?
I'm not against Santa as a fun figure, much the same as Mickey Mouse or Bugs Bunny are fun figures - children are able to enjoy these cartoons without anybody having to pretend that they are real. Can't we do the same with Santa?
Eph kindly...lovinly..Christianly asks...??
My dearest Zipporah...did you ever lie to your children or any child if you have none of your own....?
Did a 4 yr old ever ask you where babies come from..?
Did you lie to them and tell them the stork brought them...ect ect !
...OR did you tell them the TRUTH and be Honest about the physics of Human reproduction?......
How "honest" are you Zipporah if a child asks you that question....?
Did you ever lie to a child..?
Do you EVER...lie elsewhere in life Zipporah..??
Ever wear makeup on your face to hide the truth about your looks..Smaller sized shoes..to hide big feet....Maybe some dental work..to hide the truth about a bad tooth..??
Don't play the " never lie to people " card...OK...
It's PURE garbage to lay that on people..when I'm sure your a liar in some way..Like we ALL are...So lets not throw any first stones around...at others..about Santa...!
Lets make darn sure we have the LOG out of our eyes before we start pickin at others "nits"...!
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Eh?
Touche on the stones, though! I am in no way perfect, and well I know it!
I'm sorry if my post has upset you, I probably worded it badly and for that I apologise - but I still stand by my feelings. I'm not anti-Santa, a little fantasy and make-believe is good in a child's life as long as they know it's fantasy! I just feel strongly that we shouldn't be presenting a fantasy as if it were fact.
God bless, bro!
Never been asked that question, so I don't know how I'd answer it - certainly not in graphic detail, that's for sure! But I'm pretty darned sure I'm not feeding any kid any fairy tales about storks or cabbage patches or whatever other avoidance strategies are available.
Not knowingly.
No, no, and no.
Touche on the stones, though! I am in no way perfect, and well I know it!
I'm sorry if my post has upset you, I probably worded it badly and for that I apologise - but I still stand by my feelings. I'm not anti-Santa, a little fantasy and make-believe is good in a child's life as long as they know it's fantasy! I just feel strongly that we shouldn't be presenting a fantasy as if it were fact.
God bless, bro!
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MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!
(Mod hat on...)
AND, please let's refrain from graphic sexual patter---we have kids viewing this site!
And also, we are Christians---each of us is a true brother and sister. I know that discussions sometimes get impassioned---but the greatest two commandments are to love God, and to love each other. I'm sure that each of us can find a log to remove on SOME issue---none of us are perfect---I know that I certainly am not. But love requires us to respect each other, and to be patient and calm, even if we disagree. Respect to temper words like "lying" and "false deity" and "log" and "nits". Really, the ony one that ANY of us is required to answer to, is God.
Are we all in agreement?
(Mod hat off...)
(Mod hat on...)
AND, please let's refrain from graphic sexual patter---we have kids viewing this site!
And also, we are Christians---each of us is a true brother and sister. I know that discussions sometimes get impassioned---but the greatest two commandments are to love God, and to love each other. I'm sure that each of us can find a log to remove on SOME issue---none of us are perfect---I know that I certainly am not. But love requires us to respect each other, and to be patient and calm, even if we disagree. Respect to temper words like "lying" and "false deity" and "log" and "nits". Really, the ony one that ANY of us is required to answer to, is God.
Are we all in agreement?
(Mod hat off...)
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