What DOES a liberal believe?

Ricky M

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From a post on Facebook:

(PS I'm not a liberal but found this interesting)

I'm a liberal, but that doesn't mean what a lot of you apparently think it does. Let's break it down, shall we? Because quite frankly, I'm getting a little tired of being told what I believe and what I stand for.

Spoiler alert: not every liberal is the same, though the majority of liberals I know think along roughly these same lines:

1. I believe a country should take care of its weakest members. A country cannot call itself civilized when its children, disabled, sick, and elderly are neglected. PERIOD.

2. I believe health care is a right, not a privilege. Somehow that's interpreted as "I believe Obamacare is the end-all, be-all." This is not the case. I'm fully aware that the ACA has problems, that a national healthcare system would require everyone to chip in, and that it's impossible to create one that is devoid of flaws, but I have yet to hear an argument against it that makes "let people die because they can't afford healthcare" a better alternative. I believe healthcare should be far cheaper than it is, and that everyone should have access to it. And no, I'm not opposed to paying higher taxes in the name of making that happen.

3. I believe education should be affordable. It doesn't necessarily have to be free (though it works in other countries so I'm mystified as to why it can't work in the US), but at the end of the day, there is no excuse for students graduating college saddled with five- or six-figure debt.

4. I don't believe your money should be taken from you and given to people who don't want to work. I have literally never encountered anyone who believes this. Ever. I just have a massive moral problem with a society where a handful of people can possess the majority of the wealth while there are people literally starving to death, freezing to death, or dying because they can't afford to go to the doctor. Fair wages, lower housing costs, universal healthcare, affordable education, and the wealthy actually paying their share would go a long way toward alleviating this. Somehow believing that makes me a communist.

5. I don't throw around "I'm willing to pay higher taxes" lightly. If I'm suggesting something that involves paying more, well, it's because I'm fine with paying my share as long as it's actually going to something besides lining corporate pockets or bombing other countries while Americans die without healthcare.

6. I believe companies should be required to pay their employees a decent, livable wage. Somehow this is always interpreted as me wanting burger flippers to be able to afford a penthouse apartment and a Mercedes. What it actually means is that no one should have to work three full-time jobs just to keep their head above water. Restaurant servers should not have to rely on tips, multibillion-dollar companies should not have employees on food stamps, workers shouldn't have to work themselves into the ground just to barely make ends meet, and minimum wage should be enough for someone to work 40 hours and live.

7. I am not anti-Christian. I have no desire to stop Christians from being Christians, to close churches, to ban the Bible, to forbid prayer in school, etc. (BTW, prayer in school is NOT illegal; *compulsory* prayer in school is - and should be - illegal). All I ask is that Christians recognize *my* right to live according to *my* beliefs. When I get [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ed off that a politician is trying to legislate Scripture into law, I'm not "offended by Christianity" -- I'm offended that you're trying to force me to live by your religion's rules. You know how you get really upset at the thought of Muslims imposing Sharia law on you? That's how I feel about Christians trying to impose biblical law on me. Be a Christian. Do your thing. Just don't force it on me or mine.

8. I don't believe LGBT people should have more rights than you. I just believe they should have the *same* rights as you.

9. I don't believe illegal immigrants should come to America and have the world at their feet, especially since THIS ISN'T WHAT THEY DO (spoiler: undocumented immigrants are ineligible for all those programs they're supposed to be abusing, and if they're "stealing" your job it's because your employer is hiring illegally). I believe there are far more humane ways to handle undocumented immigration than our current practices (i.e., detaining children, splitting up families, ending DACA, etc).

10. I don't believe the government should regulate everything, but since greed is such a driving force in our country, we NEED regulations to prevent cut corners, environmental destruction, tainted food/water, unsafe materials in consumable goods or medical equipment, etc. It's not that I want the government's hands in everything -- I just don't trust people trying to make money to ensure that their products/practices/etc. are actually SAFE. Is the government devoid of shadiness? Of course not. But with those regulations in place, consumers have recourse if they're harmed and companies are liable for medical bills, environmental cleanup, etc. Just kind of seems like common sense when the alternative to government regulation is letting companies bring their bottom line into the equation.

11. I believe our current administration is fascist. Not because I dislike them or because I can’t get over an election, but because I've spent too many years reading and learning about the Third Reich to miss the similarities. Not because any administration I dislike must be Nazis, but because things are actually mirroring authoritarian and fascist regimes of the past.

12. I believe the systemic racism and misogyny in our society is much worse than many people think, and desperately needs to be addressed. Which means those with privilege -- white, straight, male, economic, etc. -- need to start listening, even if you don't like what you're hearing, so we can start dismantling everything that's causing people to be marginalized.

13. I am not interested in coming after your blessed guns, nor is anyone serving in government. What I am interested in is the enforcement of present laws and enacting new, common sense gun regulations. Got another opinion? Put it on your page, not mine.

14. I believe in so-called political correctness. I prefer to think it’s social politeness. If I call you Chuck and you say you prefer to be called Charles I’ll call you Charles. It’s the polite thing to do. Not because everyone is a delicate snowflake, but because as Maya Angelou put it, when we know better, we do better. When someone tells you that a term or phrase is more accurate/less hurtful than the one you're using, you now know better. So why not do better? How does it hurt you to NOT hurt another person?

15. I believe in funding sustainable energy, including offering education to people currently working in coal or oil so they can change jobs. There are too many sustainable options available for us to continue with coal and oil. Sorry, billionaires. Maybe try investing in something else.

16. I believe that women should not be treated as a separate class of human. They should be paid the same as men who do the same work, should have the same rights as men and should be free from abuse. Why on earth shouldn’t they be?

I think that about covers it. Bottom line is that I'm a liberal because I think we should take care of each other. That doesn't mean you should work 80 hours a week so your lazy neighbor can get all your money. It just means I don't believe there is any scenario in which preventable suffering is an acceptable outcome as long as money is saved.
 

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Hi ricky,

I hear ya! I'm also one to tell 'christians' that they're wasting their time trying to get the lost to live according to the Scriptures. If the lost, or the born again, could live according to the Scriptures, well...we wouldn't have needed Jesus, right? Of course, that does mean, for those who claim to be born again, that they should strive, as you quoted from Ms. Angelou, to know better and to be better. The Scriptures, in Hebrews 6, speak of our having once tasted of the goodness of the word. Peter speaks of our having tasted Jesus. Yes, I believe that once the reality of our understanding God's plan and purpose comes forth, that we should strive to live as Jesus lived. But to force upon the lost the law and commands of God, without bringing them to the knowledge of the Savior, isn't doing anyone any good. No flesh will be saved by keeping the law.

I would also not have a problem with a one payer health system modeled after, or maybe even better than, Canada's or Great Britain's or Germany's or many of the other nationalized systems. I also don't have a problem with immigration and also agree that we should have a better system. I mean, come on, we hold ourselves out as this great nation that, according to our own pride, is better than most, if not all, others. Why would we even think to imagine that other human beings wouldn't want to be a part of that?

I also hear the complaint that immigrants are taking our jobs...yet we have one of the lowest unemployment rates in decades. Except for the recent crash of '09 and the recovery thereof, we have always had a fairly respectable rate of unemployment for some 50 years. How can that be if we're all out of work because immigrants are taking our jobs? It just is not a logical argument to me.

I had a friend who regularly complained that the 'foreigners' (I'm using a word that's acceptable on CF. That was not his word) were taking our jobs and that was why he couldn't stay employed for more than a month or two. I had the opportunity on a couple of occasions to see his work ethic and quality, and I assure you that he wasn't unemployed because someone else took his job. He was just a terrible person to work with. Always grousing and complaining and cussing and fussing. Extremely slow at moving about and getting things done.

So, I'm probably labeled a 'liberal' also. But, seeing how the so-called non-liberals think and act and speak, I wear that label rather proudly. I too, care about the plight of my fellow man. I don't believe that God looking down from heaven has some great feeling of pride in seeing how Americans live over the people of most other nations. Yes, there are some nations that are really unfair in their treatment of their citizens, but that's a small few.

I have, for several years now, been convicted that the first beast of the Revelation of Jesus, may well be the U.S. We rose up out of the sea back in the 1700's and there is no other nation on the face of the earth that is more war mongering and militarily powerful than the U.S. If there is any nation on the face of the globe right now at this moment that people would say, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against the beast? It's the United States of America. And, we are proud of it! Two things that I have my eyes on right now, is this issue of our attempting to create some kind of covenant of peace with Israel, and the build up of our already great military to some astronomical level that far exceeds any other nation's military strength.

We'll see. However, as I say, looking at the nations of the world at this moment in time, we are like unto the beast. Time will tell.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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Albion

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From a post on Facebook:

(PS I'm not a liberal but found this interesting)

I'm a liberal, but that doesn't mean what a lot of you apparently think it does. Let's break it down, shall we? Because quite frankly, I'm getting a little tired of being told what I believe and what I stand for.

Spoiler alert: not every liberal is the same, though the majority of liberals I know think along roughly these same lines:

1. I believe a country should take care of its weakest members. A country cannot call itself civilized when its children, disabled, sick, and elderly are neglected. PERIOD.

2. I believe health care is a right, not a privilege. Somehow that's interpreted as "I believe Obamacare is the end-all, be-all." This is not the case. I'm fully aware that the ACA has problems, that a national healthcare system would require everyone to chip in, and that it's impossible to create one that is devoid of flaws, but I have yet to hear an argument against it that makes "let people die because they can't afford healthcare" a better alternative. I believe healthcare should be far cheaper than it is, and that everyone should have access to it. And no, I'm not opposed to paying higher taxes in the name of making that happen.

3. I believe education should be affordable. It doesn't necessarily have to be free (though it works in other countries so I'm mystified as to why it can't work in the US), but at the end of the day, there is no excuse for students graduating college saddled with five- or six-figure debt.

4. I don't believe your money should be taken from you and given to people who don't want to work. I have literally never encountered anyone who believes this. Ever. I just have a massive moral problem with a society where a handful of people can possess the majority of the wealth while there are people literally starving to death, freezing to death, or dying because they can't afford to go to the doctor. Fair wages, lower housing costs, universal healthcare, affordable education, and the wealthy actually paying their share would go a long way toward alleviating this. Somehow believing that makes me a communist.

5. I don't throw around "I'm willing to pay higher taxes" lightly. If I'm suggesting something that involves paying more, well, it's because I'm fine with paying my share as long as it's actually going to something besides lining corporate pockets or bombing other countries while Americans die without healthcare.

6. I believe companies should be required to pay their employees a decent, livable wage. Somehow this is always interpreted as me wanting burger flippers to be able to afford a penthouse apartment and a Mercedes. What it actually means is that no one should have to work three full-time jobs just to keep their head above water. Restaurant servers should not have to rely on tips, multibillion-dollar companies should not have employees on food stamps, workers shouldn't have to work themselves into the ground just to barely make ends meet, and minimum wage should be enough for someone to work 40 hours and live.

7. I am not anti-Christian. I have no desire to stop Christians from being Christians, to close churches, to ban the Bible, to forbid prayer in school, etc. (BTW, prayer in school is NOT illegal; *compulsory* prayer in school is - and should be - illegal). All I ask is that Christians recognize *my* right to live according to *my* beliefs. When I get [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ed off that a politician is trying to legislate Scripture into law, I'm not "offended by Christianity" -- I'm offended that you're trying to force me to live by your religion's rules. You know how you get really upset at the thought of Muslims imposing Sharia law on you? That's how I feel about Christians trying to impose biblical law on me. Be a Christian. Do your thing. Just don't force it on me or mine.

8. I don't believe LGBT people should have more rights than you. I just believe they should have the *same* rights as you.

9. I don't believe illegal immigrants should come to America and have the world at their feet, especially since THIS ISN'T WHAT THEY DO (spoiler: undocumented immigrants are ineligible for all those programs they're supposed to be abusing, and if they're "stealing" your job it's because your employer is hiring illegally). I believe there are far more humane ways to handle undocumented immigration than our current practices (i.e., detaining children, splitting up families, ending DACA, etc).

10. I don't believe the government should regulate everything, but since greed is such a driving force in our country, we NEED regulations to prevent cut corners, environmental destruction, tainted food/water, unsafe materials in consumable goods or medical equipment, etc. It's not that I want the government's hands in everything -- I just don't trust people trying to make money to ensure that their products/practices/etc. are actually SAFE. Is the government devoid of shadiness? Of course not. But with those regulations in place, consumers have recourse if they're harmed and companies are liable for medical bills, environmental cleanup, etc. Just kind of seems like common sense when the alternative to government regulation is letting companies bring their bottom line into the equation.

11. I believe our current administration is fascist. Not because I dislike them or because I can’t get over an election, but because I've spent too many years reading and learning about the Third Reich to miss the similarities. Not because any administration I dislike must be Nazis, but because things are actually mirroring authoritarian and fascist regimes of the past.

12. I believe the systemic racism and misogyny in our society is much worse than many people think, and desperately needs to be addressed. Which means those with privilege -- white, straight, male, economic, etc. -- need to start listening, even if you don't like what you're hearing, so we can start dismantling everything that's causing people to be marginalized.

13. I am not interested in coming after your blessed guns, nor is anyone serving in government. What I am interested in is the enforcement of present laws and enacting new, common sense gun regulations. Got another opinion? Put it on your page, not mine.

14. I believe in so-called political correctness. I prefer to think it’s social politeness. If I call you Chuck and you say you prefer to be called Charles I’ll call you Charles. It’s the polite thing to do. Not because everyone is a delicate snowflake, but because as Maya Angelou put it, when we know better, we do better. When someone tells you that a term or phrase is more accurate/less hurtful than the one you're using, you now know better. So why not do better? How does it hurt you to NOT hurt another person?

15. I believe in funding sustainable energy, including offering education to people currently working in coal or oil so they can change jobs. There are too many sustainable options available for us to continue with coal and oil. Sorry, billionaires. Maybe try investing in something else.

16. I believe that women should not be treated as a separate class of human. They should be paid the same as men who do the same work, should have the same rights as men and should be free from abuse. Why on earth shouldn’t they be?

I think that about covers it. Bottom line is that I'm a liberal because I think we should take care of each other. That doesn't mean you should work 80 hours a week so your lazy neighbor can get all your money. It just means I don't believe there is any scenario in which preventable suffering is an acceptable outcome as long as money is saved.
Sounds like a collection of ideas that the poster accepts personally, but it doesn't sound at all like a summary of Liberal ideology or even what the typical Liberal believes--not even if we take into account that contemporary Liberalism is full of contradictions.
 
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JackRT

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From a post on Facebook:

(PS I'm not a liberal but found this interesting)

I'm a liberal, but that doesn't mean what a lot of you apparently think it does. Let's break it down, shall we? Because quite frankly, I'm getting a little tired of being told what I believe and what I stand for.

Yes, that is exactly what a liberal is. I have been one for a long while because it is the only way I know maintain my spiritual and intellectual integrity. The usual notion a great many people have as to what a liberal is, is just a straw man that has been set up so that they can knock it down easily.
 
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Silmarien

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I'm a leftist, but I've largely stopped identifying as a liberal because, amongst other reasons, I think #7 renders the whole thing incoherent. Any political position involves an attempt to impose one's ideology upon the rest of society, and I think secular progressivism actually is pseudo-religious in character. (I also think there actually is significant hostility towards Christianity on the left.)

This does sound like fairly standard progressivism, though. The only major thing that really seems missing to me is the other side of the sexual revolution: whether liberalism entails a defense of inappropriate contentography and prostitution in the name of freedom, or whether one ought to condemn such things as an aspect of the systemic misogyny in our society.
 
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SkyWriting

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I'm a leftist, but I've largely stopped identifying as a liberal because, amongst other reasons, I think #7 renders the whole thing incoherent. Any political position involves an attempt to impose one's ideology upon the rest of society...

Libertarians attempts to limit that.
 
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SkyWriting

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I'm a liberal, but that doesn't mean what a lot of you apparently think it does. Let's break it down, shall we? Because quite frankly, I'm getting a little tired of being told what I believe and what I stand for.

Eventually he will discover that complaining won't change that.
Not you Ricky. You'll see that.
 
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SkyWriting

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Yeah... and they basically end up with corporate feudalism instead. :|
But as you can see, the power is moving into the hands of individuals with one person companies having more power than Kraft Foods in society. General Electric dissolving into components rather than one large company. The largest companies in the world built by one or two college students. Richard Branson is building space companies, but they operate independently enough that he swims laps around his island with his wife and family daily. The influencers of the world broadcast from their home basements.
 
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Silmarien

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But as you can see, the power is moving into the hands of individuals with one person companies having more power than Kraft Foods in society. General Electric dissolving into components rather than one large company. The largest companies in the world built by one or two college students. Richard Branson is building space companies, but they operate independently enough that he swims laps around his island with his wife and family daily. The influencers of the world broadcast from their home basements.

This would still result in corporate feudalism, if extremely wealthy and powerful individuals have the freedom to do absolutely anything they want, with limited or no attempt by society to impose any sort of rules upon them.

There is really no way around it. A functional society necessarily involves people imposing their vision of how the world should be upon the larger group, and a non-functional society evolves into a much uglier version of the same. Even libertarianism involves a vision of how society should be, and then seeks to impose that vision upon the whole. In a purely anarchic version where no checks were placed upon the powerful, the powerful would be able to impose whatever vision they have upon those beneath them, so we still do not escape from the imposition of rules.

Back to #7: "Do not impose your rules upon me" is just a silly statement, particularly for a progressive, because there are a number of things that they do want to impose upon society. Secular progressives can say, "Well, those just aren't religious things," but unless they can work their way out of their net of moral relativism, it just amounts to a fairly naive exercise of power.
 
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SkyWriting

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Even libertarianism involves a vision of how society should be, and then seeks to impose that vision upon the whole. In a purely anarchic version where no checks were placed upon the powerful, the powerful would be able to impose whatever vision they have upon those beneath them, so we still do not escape from the imposition of rules.

Back to #7: "Do not impose your rules upon me" is just a silly statement, particularly for a progressive, because there are a number of things that they do want to impose upon society.


What list of things do liberals want to impose on society?
I'm liberal and I'd like to evaluate your claim.
 
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SkyWriting

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This would still result in corporate feudalism, if extremely wealthy and powerful individuals have the freedom to do absolutely anything they want, with limited or no attempt by society to impose any sort of rules upon them.

What things do you see happening now?
How do you imagine that the wealthy are free from laws now?
What rules do you wish to impose on them?
 
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The Barbarian

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Sounds like a collection of ideas that the poster accepts personally, but it doesn't sound at all like a summary of Liberal ideology or even what the typical Liberal believes--not even if we take into account that contemporary Liberalism is full of contradictions.

There are things liberals believe in. And then there are things that conservatives want liberals to believe in. And sometimes conservatives start believing their own talking points. Thanks for the reminder.
 
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Silmarien

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What list of things do liberals want to impose on society?
I'm liberal and I'd like to evaluate your claim.

Much of what was listed in the OP would count as impositions. For the most extreme example, civil rights legislation involve forcing people to adhere to certain standards in housing and hiring. If a racist does not believe that they should have to rent to someone of a different race, then we are forcing them to live by our rules.

Any law aimed at making society fairer and more egalitarian is teleological in nature. It involves a moral vision of the way that things ought to be, which means it automatically entails forcing one's beliefs upon those who might not agree.

I'm a bit of a liberation theologian, so fit fairly neatly in the "liberal" category, but I don't think it's even possible to separate theology and politics, so I'm automatically imposing my religion upon people by having any political view. Most progressives would make an exception for me (at least until I say something they don't like), so are effectively saying that it's okay to impose biblical views upon society as long as they agree with those views. I find that ridiculous.

What things do you see happening now?
How do you imagine that the wealthy are free from laws now?
What rules do you wish to impose on them?

I don't think they're free from imposition. I'm saying that a society in which we didn't try to force people to live by our rules in any meaningful sense would turn into a feudal state.

That said, I do see international corporations practically buying off entire governments. See, for example, the Odebrecht scandal.
 
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miamited

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There are things liberals believe in. And then there are things that conservatives want liberals to believe in. And sometimes conservatives start believing their own talking points. Thanks for the reminder.

Hi barbarian,

Couldn't have said it better myself. It's a phenomenon that we all need to be aware of, even in our own ideas of 'what' a particular word or term means.

Much like 'socialism' or 'socialist'. The terms have been made to be derogatory even when they're describing a good part of governance. All one has to do these days is just say the word 'socialism' without any explanation whatsoever as to what is being discussed and everyone runs for the hills to get away from this terrible word that must mean some terrible thing. It honestly reminds me of the days of McCarthyism. People fear words, rather than the idea or policy that such a word may be describing.

So, today we have some running around pointing their fingers in disgust, and throwing around words like socialism or liberalism and just expecting everyone to understand that whatever it is it must be a bad thing. I rather think that the eternal life with God is going to be quite socialist. God is always going to do what's best for the whole community and provide for the whole community. According to God's word, we are supposed to help those who are downtrodden and poor. Blessed are the merciful. Blessed are the poor in spirit. God's most bestest blessings are for those who would promote, to some degree, liberal and socialist ideals. Caring for one another, despite the personal cost to ourselves. Gosh, seems like there was a story that Jesus told in the Scriptures about a man that did something like that. Jesus seemed to approve of the man taking care of one who he was supposed to despise, according to the Jewish traditions and society.

Go figure! So, I usually try to look past the supposed demeaning words that others use to so often describe the things that they don't like or approve of, and try to understand what the underlying issues are.

But that's just me and I know that I have a weird understanding of God and His word and the work that He has done that I might know Him and His salvation.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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The Barbarian

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Dog whistles are pretty much a conservative thing, but not exclusively. I don't doubt that in the future, a weak and corrupt politician will be described as "Trumpian."

Some will find it too tempting to ignore.
 
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What list of things do liberals want to impose on society?

Health care! I can't speak for all liberals, but the DNC recognizes health care as a human right and agree. Although Democrats have different ideas to fix it, they are all united on the concept that every American needs health care that does not break the bank.
 
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