What do you think of the Western Rite Orthodox?

[rakovsky]

Many Christians who have studied theology in depth have heard of the Eastern Orthodox or the "Greek Church". But how many have heard of the Western Rite practiced in the Orthodox Church or that parishes have been set up dedicated to this Rite?

In this thread, I will provide some information about the Western Rite and ask for your opinions and reactions.

The Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR) has a special branch of parishes set up dedicated to the Western Rite.

Their website is: http://rocor-wr.org/

It says:

What Is the Western Rite?

The Western Rite of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia is a concerted effort to reach out to Western Christians in a manner that is thoroughly Orthodox but is also familiar to the tradition(s) that they may be coming from. To accomplish this, the Western Rite Communities have sought to re-establish the Western Church as it existed prior to the Great Schism of AD 1054.

Their History section discusses connections that they have with Anglicanism:

The year 1867 saw [Julian] Overbeck, with 122 signatures from the Oxford Movement, petition the Church of Russia for the establishment of a Western Rite church in full communion with the Eastern Rite. A seven-member synodal commission was then formed, and invited Overbeck to attend. The idea was approved, and Overbeck set about submitting a draft of the proposed Western liturgy, which added an epiclesis and the Trisagion hymn to the Tridentine Mass. This rite was submitted in 1871, and was examined and approved by the commission. Overbeck focused his efforts on the Old Catholic movement, who had rejected Papal Infallibility. He continued to engage in polemics with Catholics, Anglicans, and Orthodox converts using the Byzantine Rite.

St. Tikhon's involvement in the Western Rite has been more enduring. While he was bishop of the Russian mission in America, some Episcopalians were interested in the possibility of joining Orthodoxy while retaining some form of the Anglican liturgy. St. Tikhon sent the 1892 Book of Common Prayer to the Holy Synod, asking about the possibility. According to Fr. Edward Hughes, St. Raphael of Brooklyn composed the letter of inquiry. In 1904, the Holy Synod admitted its possibility, including edits for its use in an Orthodox manner. It concluded that such edits "can be carried out only on the spot, in America," and found it "desirable to send the 'Observations' themselves to the Right Rev. Tikhon, the American Bishop." ... However, his involvement lay the groundwork for the reception and approved liturgy of some parishes in the Western Rite Vicariate and later the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR).

Western Rite Orthodoxy, in Australia and New Zealand, has arisen mostly from Anglican and Continuing Anglican communities. Metropolitan Hilarion (Kapral) of Sydney of ROCOR received some communities under his omophor; while others have been received by Bishop Gibran and Metropolitan Archbishop Paul, both under the Church of Antioch...
http://rocor-wr.org/history.html

It has a list of ROCOR Western Rite parishes and monasteries here:
http://rocor-wr.org/parishes.html

 

[rakovsky]

The Antiochian Orthodox Church also has a number of Western Rite parishes.

Here is their webpage: http://www.antiochian.org/western-rite

They have a list of parishes here: http://www.antiochian.org/parishes/western-rite

A website called Western Rite Information has a long list of Western Rite websites, parishes, and monasteries in the US, UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand:
http://westernorthodox.info/links/websites.html
http://westernorthodox.info/links/parishes.html
http://westernorthodox.info/links/monasteries.html

 

[BelleC]

I would like to visit one someday but there are none close enough to me to seriously consider making one home parish, which is really what I'm looking for. There is a lot I admire about Orthodoxy but also some stumbling blocks for me.

 

[Paidiske]

So, liturgically, it's a bit like an ordinariate in Orthodoxy?

That's interesting, but it wouldn't hold any appeal for me personally (the woman thing is still a problem). But it might be somewhere I can refer people with an interest in Orthodoxy, but for whom the cultural leap to a particular national/ethnic church is too far.

Edited to add: It's interesting that in Australia they're only in Tasmania. I'm not likely to be referring many people there!

 

[Philip_B]

I have to say that John X, (Patriarch of Antioch) is in my mind one of the hugely impressive leaders in the Christian Church today. His enthronement could not happen in his Cathedral Church because of the circumstances of the time. And here is part of what he had to say

What role does the Antiochian Orthodox Church play as a part of the social fabric of Syria? What has it done and what will it do?

To start, we would like to direct our warmest greetings to the Syrian people as a whole and our Muslim brothers in particular on the occasion of Eid el-Adha. Many happy returns.

The Patriarchate and our Orthodox Christian people are a fundamental part of our country. We are Syrians, the children of this nation. We were born here, as were our fathers and grandfathers. Christianity started out here and we feel that we are one family with all the country’s communities. Throughout history, the Patriarchate has been—and we hope it shall remain—a fundamental factor for common life in dignity, for reinforcing all the national and historical foundations that have brought us together ever since Christianity appeared in these lands. Ever since the coming of Islam, we have lived together and have built a common history. There is no doubt that our future is one.​

There seems in John X a great strong depth of faith and resilience, and an approach to Islam that seems very different to the approach take in a number of discussions on CF. We remember that Antioch is the place where followers of the way were first called Christian, and John X appears to be avowedly the real deal.

In Australia there are a number of Orthodox Churches represented, and they do not always play nicely together. I have visited a number of them over the years. The Greeks have had the highest profile, I am aware of a Russian Orthodox Church in Western Newcastle, and the is an occasional Coptic Orthodox extended Parish further west and as an outreach of Sydney.

I truth, I think that most Churches are impacted by the culture in which they operate. Anglicans have a kind of English background ethos, and I know the Greek Orthodox are quite Greek. The Copts, who I have only admired from a distance, also seem quite Egyptian. I worshipped with the Lutherans for a year or so at one stage, and they were really a little more German than I was used to. All our communities of faith pick up something of the community we live in. I worked on the mission in Papua New Guinea and one of our great challenges was to differentiate between culture and gospel. I sounds simple, however it is profoundly difficult, and you quickly get accused of synchronicity.

I have had a look at a text of the Western Rite liturgy. It seemed generally to be something like a patch up between English Missal and 1928, and I would think many Anglo Catholics would be quite happy with it. I am not sure that it represent a return to the rite of pre conquest Sarum - however we don't seem to have a lot of examples of the rites from that period, no doubt the Normans trashed many of them. My suspicion is that the position of the creed in Old Sarum liturgy would have been in the proximity of the Great Thanksgivng, quite possibly before the sursum corda. I think the movement of the position of the creed in the liturgy at the Synod of Friuli in 798 represents a subtle shift in purpose and understanding of the creed, and may have contributed to a more militant understanding of Christianity.

Anyway, that is just a few thoughts.

 

[rakovsky]

This essay called In Defense of Western Rite Orthodoxy explains more about it:

Saint John (Maximovitch) of Shanghai celebrating the Western Rite with Western Rite Orthodox in Paris.

The great champion of the Western Rite of the twentieth-century, St. John the Wonderworker, of Shanghai and San Francisco, has told us clearly:

• Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must be Eastern. The west was fully Orthodox for a thousand years, and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies.

Are there “orthodox” Traditional Catholics, Anglicans, or Lutherans left?

Anglicans and Lutherans are the most liturgical of all Protestant groups, and generally take their liturgy very seriously. The Anglicans, in particular, have an incredibly deep sense of liturgy that is far more ancient in practice and origin, and deeper in reverence, than the modern Roman Catholic Rite, and is, in fact, quite beautiful. So in terms of “remembering the rite,” Lutherans and Anglicans don’t really need to remember it, they live it every time they step into a church.
... we must also note the tremendous growth in Traditional Catholic parishes across the U.S. especially. Indeed, in the last 20 years, the parishes in the American Roman Catholic Church that have seen the most consistent growth have been those that celebrate the Latin Tridentine Mass daily.

... Indeed, we can offer them something incredible: their deepest longing for participation in the form worship that their Western ancestors used, within the context of the True Faith of Jesus Christ.

Holy Incarnation Western Rite Orthodox Church in Detroit

...
We can plainly see that no matter how many “academics” may argue against the use of the Western Rite, they must stand up against the saints who supported it, including St. John Maximovitch, St. Tikhon of Moscow, St. Nicholas of Japan, and St. Raphael of Brooklyn, among others. There are also many other Orthodox academics, scholars, and leaders in the Church that support the Western Rite, men such as Vladimir Lossky, Patriarch Sergius I of Moscow,[1] Metropolitan Anthony (Bloom), Metropolitan Philip (Saliba), and Bishop Basil (Essey) of Wichita.

http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/91138.htm


The St. Gregory Orthodox Church website has a list of parishes under the Antiochian Orthodox Church with photos, so you can get a sense of their layout:

http://www.stgregoryoc.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/St.-Michaels-Whittier-CA1.jpg
St. Michael Orthodox Church, Whittier, CA


St. Augustine Orthodox Church, Denver, CO


St. Mark Orthodox Church, Denver CO

http://www.stgregoryoc.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/St.-Marks-Denver.jpg
(etc.)
http://www.stgregoryoc.org/links/western-rite-parish-directory

St. Peter Orthodox Church in Texas gives its own summary of what the Western Rite means:

The Origin of Western Rite Orthodoxy in America

Before the year 1054 there would have been no difficulty in declaring that the Western Rite of the Undivided Church was simply the use of Latin speaking Churches. The Rite used by Christians in Scotland, Ireland and England, was as Orthodox as that used in Constantinople. In the first thousand years of Christendom all the far flung churches that were in communion with the Five Patriarchates (Constantinople, Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Rome) were Orthodox. After 1054, and more precisely, after the Norman Conquest (1066) of England, the Churches of the West were drawn into the Great Schism of the Roman Patriarchate away from the Unity of the Orthodox Church. The Western Liturgy came to reflect the Papal errors and even incorporated the Filioque in the Nicene Creed with other aberrations.


The restoration of a corrected, and truly Orthodox, Western Rite to Holy Orthodoxy in the United States was not originated by laity or by ordinary clergy. The vision of the Western Rite as an essential part of the Orthodox Mission in America belonged toArchbishop Tikhon of the American Archdiocese under the Moscow Patriarchate. About ninety years ago he examined the existing Anglican Book of Common Prayer and sent it to the Holy Synod of Moscow. That Liturgy, derived from the ancient use of the Orthodox West, and first expressed in English in the edition of 1549 by authority of King Edward the Sixth of England, was corrected and approved by the Holy Synod for Orthodox Church use.

http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/orthodoxy/western-rite-orthodoxy/

Another essay on their website says:

Modern Orthodox Use of the Western Rite

By Fr. John Connely
At the beginning of the 18th Century a considerable correspondence was conducted between the English Nonjurers1 (usually styled the “Catholic remnant” of the British Church), Peter the Great, Czar of Russia, and the Ecumenical Patriarch at Constantinople. It was proposed that a parish be established in London, to be called the Unia, and which would be Orthodox and Western Rite. The Nonjurers’ lack of funds prevented their sending the proposed two delegates to Russia to seal the agreement. However, the Patriarch’s second letter to the “British Catholics” expressed a willingness to effect union and fix details later: “As for custom and ecclesiastical order and for the form and discipline of administering the sacraments, they will be easily settled when once a union is effected.”2 A century later the Anglican deacon William Palmer worked with Alexis Khomiakov and Metropolitan (Saint) Philaret of Moscow towards the establishment of a Western Rite Orthodox Church in England. Dr. Joseph Overbeck’s conversion in 1865 led to the Holy Synod of Moscow giving approval to a restored, corrected, Mass of St. Peter (or St. Gregory) in Latin in 1870. This was based on over one hundred years of study, work and attempts to do this very thing.
NOTES


1 The Nonjurors were members of the Church of England who, after 1688, scrupled to take the Oath of Allegiance to William of Orange on the grounds they would break their previous oath to James (Stuart) II. Eight bishops, including Abp. Sancroft of Canterbury and Bp. Thomas Ken of Wells, with 400 priests and numbers of laity, were expelled from the C of E by Act of Parliament. The Nonjurors, encouraged by the Russian Czar, carried on an extensive correspondence with the Patriarch of Jerusalem seeking union with the Eastern Church. As Sacramental High Churchmen they are linked with the Caroline divines of the 17th, and Tractarians of the 19th, centuries.

http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/orthodoxy/modern-orthodox-use-of-the-western-rite/

 

[rakovsky]

Here a Western Rite Orthodox priest talks about the Western Rite:


Here are a few short videos of their services:

Some nice singing acapella:

 

[rakovsky]

So, liturgically, it's a bit like an ordinariate in Orthodoxy?

That's interesting, but it wouldn't hold any appeal for me personally (the woman thing is still a problem). But it might be somewhere I can refer people with an interest in Orthodoxy, but for whom the cultural leap to a particular national/ethnic church is too far.

Edited to add: It's interesting that in Australia they're only in Tasmania. I'm not likely to be referring many people there!

I know what you mean, Paidiske. They sometimes hold services in Anglican churches on the Mainland, like this one in New South Wales:

The church: St Mary the Virgin, Waverley, New South Wales, Australia.

Denomination: The church itself is Anglican Church of Australia. However, the service I attended was conducted by a number of Western Rite priests from the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, Diocese of Australia and New Zealand....

What books did the congregation use during the service?
A booklet containing the text and rubrics for the services of matins and the English Rite mass. A special booklet for the liturgical reception of the archbishop, with information on the history and current presence of Western Rite Orthodoxy at the back.

http://www.ship-of-fools.com/mystery/2007/1473.html

They could get in touch with ROCOR in Australia to see when and where their next services will be on the mainland:

Address: 20 Chelmsford Ave, Croydon NSW 2132, Australia
Phone:+61 2 9747 5892
http://www.rocor.org.au/

 

[rakovsky]

I have to say that John X, (Patriarch of Antioch) is in my mind one of the hugely impressive leaders in the Christian Church today. His enthronement could not happen in his Cathedral Church because of the circumstances of the time. And here is part of what he had to say

What role does the Antiochian Orthodox Church play as a part of the social fabric of Syria? What has it done and what will it do?

To start, we would like to direct our warmest greetings to the Syrian people as a whole and our Muslim brothers in particular on the occasion of Eid el-Adha. Many happy returns.

The Patriarchate and our Orthodox Christian people are a fundamental part of our country. We are Syrians, the children of this nation. We were born here, as were our fathers and grandfathers. Christianity started out here and we feel that we are one family with all the country’s communities. Throughout history, the Patriarchate has been—and we hope it shall remain—a fundamental factor for common life in dignity, for reinforcing all the national and historical foundations that have brought us together ever since Christianity appeared in these lands. Ever since the coming of Islam, we have lived together and have built a common history. There is no doubt that our future is one.​

There seems in John X a great strong depth of faith and resilience, and an approach to Islam that seems very different to the approach take in a number of discussions on CF. We remember that Antioch is the place where followers of the way were first called Christian, and John X appears to be avowedly the real deal.

This is a nice description

In Australia there are a number of Orthodox Churches represented, and they do not always play nicely together. I have visited a number of them over the years. The Greeks have had the highest profile, I am aware of a Russian Orthodox Church in Western Newcastle, and the is an occasional Coptic Orthodox extended Parish further west and as an outreach of Sydney.

When you say that they don't play nicely together, do you mean how the Copts don't have communion with the Greeks and Russians?
I know it's a serious issue that goes back to the 5th century. At that time the Council of Chalcedon took the view that Christ has a human nature (humanity) and a divine nature (divinity), and thus is in two natures. This has been accepted by the Greek, Russian, Roman Catholic, Lutheran, and Anglican churches. They based this in part on the writings of the then-recently-deceased Egyptian Christian Patriarch, St Cyril, leader who said that Christ was "in" both natures and unseparated.

The Copts on the other hand rejected Chalcedon's statement, because they took the view that if Christ has two natures (divinity and humanity), he must be two separated persons. Nowadays there are some Copts who have come to believe that Chalcedon's statement is acceptable, and there is a document that I believe the Coptic Church has agreed to in the last several decades saying this. So the churches are moving in a direction of reunion after many centuries.

 

[rakovsky]

I would like to visit one someday but there are none close enough to me to seriously consider making one home parish, which is really what I'm looking for.

OK, where is that in the country?

 

[Paidiske]

Thanks, that's helpful to know about.

 

[Fish and Bread]

I think it's nice that some Eastern Orthodoxy jurisdiction are providing this option, as it would be inauthentic to evangelize the western world without allowing people to use at least a variation on the western liturgy and traditions that the EO say was fully part of their Church for over 1,000 years prior to the Great Schism, where they claim Rome left them. I think it makes sense for the Eastern Orthodox to allow for these liturgies and parishes, just as Rome has Eastern churches in communion with it that follow Eastern practices and traditions, including the eastern divine liturgy, given their claim about the importance of tradition and liturgies, and to be the sole continuation of the united pre-Great Schism Church that fully "counts".

Also, I would just say that there is basically nothing that would get me to go to a liturgy that would either cause me to stand up for 3 hours, which I can't physically do for health reasons, or stick out like a sore thumb by being the only one not standing. So, if I ever wanted to visit an Eastern Orthodox parish, a Western Rite parish would probably be the one I would go to for practical issues and because I don't like being the center of attention, unless it was for something other than a divine liturgy/mass and instead in a context where hours of standing are not the norm. I actually did go to an Eastern Orthodox cathedral once at a Greek cultural festival and walked around and looked at the icons and the interior architecture, which were beautiful.

However, logistically, this is mainly just interesting in theory. I would be shocked if I ever converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, with all due respect for a very venerable religious tradition, which I do respect.

 

[rakovsky]

Also, I would just say that there is basically nothing that would get me to go to a liturgy that would either cause me to stand up for 3 hours, which I can't physically do for health reasons, or stick out like a sore thumb by being the only one not standing. So, if I ever wanted to visit an Eastern Orthodox parish, a Western Rite parish would probably be the one I would go to for practical issues and because I don't like being the center of attention, unless it was for something other than a divine liturgy/mass and instead in a context where hours of standing are not the norm.

I understand, Fish and Bread. In America, the service in Eastern Churches is usually an hour to an hour and a half, and they generally have pews that everyone sits on.

In Russia, the services are longer, and the pews are on the sides of the sanctuary where people who are old or sick sit.

I think that this concept would be more attractive to average American churchgoers, whom I find are generally sincere about their faith, if they had an ability to know Greek and travel in time to the 1st-2nd century New Testament Churches and find that they practiced this way. It would probably feel authentic and important to many as a good way to worship.

A lot of times we hear ministers proposing that certain things are right or wrong because it was or wasn't practiced in their view by Christ, the apostles, or first century Church. It comes up often on many topics like the debates over Charismatic styles of worship, or whether to use holy oil, or whether to lift up the bread, etc. Just take for example the proposition in the Anglican Articles of Religion that the Eucharist "was not by Christ's command lifted up or carried about".

Given the importance to ministers of early Christian worship, I think that if these ministers went back in time and found out how the apostles and first century Christians actually worshiped and believed, it would make a major impression on them. Because I think otherwise many of them look askance at the practices, either like it's a foreign practice to them whose strangeness they can never get over, or it's just another way of doing things that is not particularly relevant, like statues of Mary molded in Japanese or Peruvian styles.

 

[Philip_B]

Reminds me of http://www.ccsl.org.au/ where I have spent more than a few hours lost in wonder awe and prayer.

I think what would be really exciting would be to get hold of some of the authentic pre-conquest liturgies from the little island just off Europe. Imagining a backtracking from 1549, is certainly a liturgical format that makes some sense, and I commend the Antiocheans for having a go however there is 500 years of the latin conquest that has to inhibit that process. There are also great and ancient liturgical resources we now have, such as the canon of Hippolytus, which is seen as a great influence on contemporary liturgy formats.

My suspicion is that the English Church had much influence from the East, certainly before Augustine, and after. Theodore was Archbishop of Canterbury in 680 and his origins are clearly Eastern. In any case I don't think pre-conquest liturgy was as far west as Rome. There are little bits which we think go right back. In the marriage liturgy nobody dared play with 'I plight thee my troth' even though troth was not a word in current usage in England, save in the wedding service. It is a much older word meaning something like 'my truth' or 'the essential truth of my being'. There are almost certainly other bits that have been inherited, but I really think we need to find some of the old stuff so we can stop guessing.

In Papua New Guinea there was one Church that had a Christus Rex hanging as the rood cross, that had been made in the village and the Christ figure looked distinctly Papuan. I think it may have been more challenging for foreign mission staff that it was for the people who had a vibrant faith, and a community life that flourished around their Church. I think for them, Jesus was normal and he had become one of them.

 

[BelleC]

OK, where is that in the country?

US, southern New England. The closest Orthodox Church to me is an Albanian/ OCA church that I have visited. It was very nice. The priest and choir were not there that Sunday but it was a very beautiful service anyway. They had kids from the Sunday school in place of the choir, cute but a little hard to follow.

Next closest is a Greek Orthodox. I have not visited and am not likely to do so. From it's website and calendar it appears to be very into Greek culture and centers it's activities around the language, food, and maintaining culture. I am not at all interested in being or feeling an outsider in church. As a Latina and a SDA I spent my youth feeling outside the general culture and learning late to feel comfortable and understand it. Don't want to return to that feeling. I would probably take orthodoxy in US more seriously if it could get it's act together with the multiplicity of ethic jurisdictions and confusion over having an American church.

 

[rakovsky]

s a Latina and a SDA I spent my youth feeling outside the general culture and learning late to feel comfortable and understand it.

Maybe this will be interesting for you:

I. San Isidoro y San Leandro Spanish Orthodox Church

• It is a Western Orthodox Church, using the Hispanic Mozarabic rite. I, personally, had never previously heard of Western Orthodox, much less Spanish Orthodox, Christians. Like many others ignorant on the subject, my initial assumptions were: aren't all Orthodox Christians Eastern? Aren't all Spanish churches Roman Catholic? This tiny Church employs a liturgy which predates the sad schism between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches, which was employed in Spain centuries ago, when the Church was still one. This is some brief footage of the interior of the Church, including shots of some of the icons, as well as some brief clips of the Priest who maintains the Church. (SOURCE: YOUTUBE)

II. Orthodoxy in Guatemala

Seminarian Witnesses “Explosion” of Orthodox Christianity in Guatemala

27 August 2012

Just two years ago, in 2010, the Orthodox Church received a large group of Guatemalan converts numbering in the hundreds of thousands. ...

The seed of Orthodoxy in Guatemala was planted by the nuns of the Hogar Rafael Ayau, an Orthodox orphanage in Guatemala City. Many people are familiar with the incredible work of Mother Inés, Mother Ivonne, and Mother María. In fact, just this year a group of seminarians from St. Vladimir's Seminary traveled with the seminary Chancellor/CEO Archpriest Chad Hatfield to see the work of the nuns and to assist at the orphanage. It is through these nuns that the Guatemalan soil was first prepared for the Orthodox Church. Now, with the recent chrismation of a new group of Guatemalan converts that numbers between 100,000 and 200,000, the Orthodox Church is ready to blossom in Guatemala. The magnitude of the event cannot be overstated. Almost overnight, Guatemala has become the most Orthodox country in the Western Hemisphere (by percentage of national population). Furthermore, the Orthodox communities in Guatemala continue to grow rapidly and attract attention throughout Guatemala.
...
These communities are mostly made up of native Mayans and have roots in the Roman Catholic Church. They first began in the 1970s and 1980s as a Roman Catholic renewal movement called the “Charismatic Renewal in the Holy Spirit.” For various reasons, including the movement's charismatic prayer practices and emphasis on music in church services, the parishes of the Charismatic Renewal became estranged from the Roman Catholic Church. Many communities went decades without sacraments until, in the 1990s, a former Roman Catholic priest named Fr. Andrés Girón took the movement under his wing. A very prominent figure in Guatemala, Fr. Andrés had served in the Guatemalan senate, acted as an ambassador to the United Nations, and led a large movement for land reform among the rural poor of Guatemala. These activities were part of what caused Fr. Andrés to come into tension with the Roman Catholic Church, eventually leaving the Church before taking leadership of the parishes of the Charismatic Renewal.
...

as he became more familiar with broader Orthodox Christianity, Fr. Andrés sought out the canonical Orthodox Church. A number of priests from other countries came to evaluate the situation in Guatemala, and then in April of 2010, Fr. Andrés was received into the canonical Orthodox Church under the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople.

from left to right: Fr. Mihail, Fr. Evangelos, Fr. Andrés Girón, Fr. José, and Fr. Danil

http://www.svots.edu/headlines/semi...ount-explosion-orthodox-christianity-guatemal

See also:

Orthodox Christianity in Guatemala
In the 1980s two Catholic women, Mother Ines and Mother Maria, converted to Orthodox Christianity and established a monastery. In 1992 they were received into the Antiochian Patriarchate and in 1995 the Catholic Apostolic Orthodox Antiochian Church in Guatemala was formally established. The state orphanage of Hogar Rafael Ayau, established in 1857, was privatized and transferred to their care in 1996.

A different, mostly indigenous Mayan, group was accepted into the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople in 2010. These had been a group which was part of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal movement and had rocky relations with the Roman Catholic Church. Eventually, the group's leader, Father Andrés Girón, who had previously served as a representative of unelected but appointed congressional deputies,[4](p141) as a senator in 1991.[5] and as an ambassador to the United Nations, left the Roman Catholic Church over tensions related to his support for land reform and their support for "liturgical reform".[a] Girón joined the Society of clerks secular of Saint Basil,[6] He and his followers, who numbered between 100,000 and 200,000,[third-party source needed] moved first to the Society of Secular Clerics and then into the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, which received them in 2010. According to Father Peter Jackson, this may well be the largest mass-conversion to Orthodoxy since the Christianization of Kievan Rus' in 988.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Christianity_in_Guatemala

 

[All4Christ]

I would probably take orthodoxy in US more seriously if it could get it's act together with the multiplicity of ethic jurisdictions and confusion over having an American church.

Unfortunately, some are like that, though not all. In our area, for example, while we do have multiple jurisdictions, we all have Pan-Orthodox services regularly, and have many things we do all together regardless of ethnicity. While we still have the jurisdictions, the people on our own (and with leadership) can do a lot to overcome those problems. The Western Orthodox Church is a good example of reaching beyond ethnicity. Just my 2 cents

 

[Mockingbird0]

I reject the thesis that the Scottish epiclesis in the American prayer book is in any way defective.

I reject the thesis that the Anglican churches are in any way un-orthodox.

For the pre-Norman English church's Eucharistic rite we have the Leofric Missal:

https://archive.org/details/theleofricmissal00unknuoft

and the Missal of Robert of Jumieges:

https://archive.org/details/missalrobertjum00wilsgoog

For the office we have numerous sources, such as the Leofric Collectar, the Regularis Concordia and Aelfric's letter to the monks, among other sources. The 1979 American Episcopal Prayer Book is well within the tradition witnessed by these sources, and suitable to be used by all English-speaking Christians.

 

[Albion]

Unfortunately, some are like that, though not all. In our area, for example, while we do have multiple jurisdictions, we all have Pan-Orthodox services regularly, and have many things we do all together regardless of ethnicity. While we still have the jurisdictions, the people on our own (and with leadership) can do a lot to overcome those problems. The Western Orthodox Church is a good example of reaching beyond ethnicity. Just my 2 cents

You have a point, but don't try to push it too far. Three competing and mutually hostile Russian jurisdictions and four--count 'em--four Ukrainian orthodox jurisdictions do not a mutual admiration society make.

 

[All4Christ]

You have a point, but don't try to push it too far. Three competing and mutually hostile Russian jurisdictions and four--count 'em--four Ukrainian orthodox jurisdictions do not a mutual admiration society make.

I'm not sure which point you are referencing - I was speaking of personal experience with Pan-Orthodox relationships and services. Honestly, jurisdictional issues are outside the realm of what we experience as a community. When I see someone who is Greek Orthodox, I see someone who is Orthodox. The same goes with Antiochian, OCA, Russian and yes, Western Orthodoxy.

We as Orthodox Christians don't have to experience jurisdiction conflicts. It isn't a fight between jurisdictions everywhere.

That said, which point am I pushing too far?