What Do You Think of the Catholic Teaching about Mary?

patricius79

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The Bible teaches that Mary, "conceived" Jesus in her womb through her relationship with the Holy Spirit (Lk 1), and that Jesus is "Lord and God" (Jn 20:28).

It seems to me that this says as much in praise of Mary as anything that the Catholic Church's Tradition (2 Thes 2:15) says.

I believe that God's creature, Mary, is the Mother of God, the Refuge of Sinners, the Ark of the Covenant, the Immaculate Conception, and the New Eve.

Without being disrespectful of others, what do you believe about Mary?
 
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At this risk of seeming to be disrespectiful to the views of others, all I can say is that as most Roman Catholic teaching regarding Mary is so far outside of theological norms, that it can be sadly very hard to describe.
 
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Hawkiz

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At this risk of seeming to be disrespectiful to the views of others, all I can say is that as most Roman Catholic teaching regarding Mary is so far outside of theological norms, that it can be sadly very hard to describe.

Can you be more specific as to what you see as 'outside of theological norms' please?

Peace in Christ
 
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PaladinValer

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I have no issue with most Marian Titles. I also see her as semper virgo and having lived an extraordinarily grace-filled life, living in perfect cooperation with God her whole life long.

I do have issue with the idea of Immaculate Conception, mostly because there's no need and it disrupts the idea of a perfect humanity of her. I also see no point in the idea of Co-Redemptix and Mediatrix; they are not dogmas and never have been despite what some Vatican Catholics think even in their own church and they have some problems, even though the intended meaning is, while still somewhat problematic, reconcilable (really, they are just very, very poorly worded). In addition, while I have no issue with veneration and petitioning, the idea that it is a guaranteed thing in the sense of the Treasury of Merits goes too far. If grace comes from a petition, that's God's choice; that's my view at least.

A lesser disagreement is with the Assumption, but that's because of the idea of papacy. I prefer the concept of the Dormition.

Otherwise; Hail Mary! Full of Grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the Fruit of your womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.
 
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patricius79

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I have no issue with most Marian Titles. I also see her as semper virgo and having lived an extraordinarily grace-filled life, living in perfect cooperation with God her whole life long.

I do have issue with the idea of Immaculate Conception, mostly because there's no need and it disrupts the idea of a perfect humanity of her. I also see no point in the idea of Co-Redemptix and Mediatrix; they are not dogmas and never have been despite what some Vatican Catholics think even in their own church and they have some problems, even though the intended meaning is, while still somewhat problematic, reconcilable (really, they are just very, very poorly worded). In addition, while I have no issue with veneration and petitioning, the idea that it is a guaranteed thing in the sense of the Treasury of Merits goes too far. If grace comes from a petition, that's God's choice; that's my view at least.

A lesser disagreement is with the Assumption, but that's because of the idea of papacy. I prefer the concept of the Dormition.

Otherwise; Hail Mary! Full of Grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the Fruit of your womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.

I'm glad that we agree Mary is the Mother of God and Ever-Virgin.

Why do you think that the idea of the Immaculate Conception "disrupts the idea of a perfect humanity of her"?
 
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PaladinValer

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I'm glad that we agree Mary is the Mother of God and Ever-Virgin.

Why do you think that the idea of the Immaculate Conception "disrupts the idea of a perfect humanity of her"?

Because of original sin. It is natural of humans, and if St. Mary is truly purely human, then she was born in it.

The East, and increasingly in the West, has never had the concept of guilt inherently part of original sin like the classic view of the West. So the idea that otherwise she would have been a sinner if she was born in original sin, disappears.

Jesus' birth was indeed immaculate because while He is 100% human, He is also 100% God. If St. Mary enjoyed an immaculate birth, then we run into "well, how divine is she?". Yes, one could say "God could have made it so", but again, that smacks in the idea of guilt. If Vatican Catholicism is truly moving away from the idea of guilt associated with original sin, which it is right in doing, then still having the idea of Immaculate Conception of the BVM logically must go right out of the door too. Otherwise, it is having cake and eating it too.
 
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Hawkiz

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I have no issue with most Marian Titles. I also see her as semper virgo and having lived an extraordinarily grace-filled life, living in perfect cooperation with God her whole life long.

I do have issue with the idea of Immaculate Conception, mostly because there's no need and it disrupts the idea of a perfect humanity of her. I also see no point in the idea of Co-Redemptix and Mediatrix; they are not dogmas and never have been despite what some Vatican Catholics think even in their own church and they have some problems, even though the intended meaning is, while still somewhat problematic, reconcilable (really, they are just very, very poorly worded). In addition, while I have no issue with veneration and petitioning, the idea that it is a guaranteed thing in the sense of the Treasury of Merits goes too far. If grace comes from a petition, that's God's choice; that's my view at least.

A lesser disagreement is with the Assumption, but that's because of the idea of papacy. I prefer the concept of the Dormition.

Otherwise; Hail Mary! Full of Grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the Fruit of your womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.

Can you give a specific point or two about why you a) disagree with the concept of the Immaculate Conception? And b) why you find it unnecessary?

The idea behind it is that Christ, as both God and man, was still without any sin. If man gets the stain of sin from Adam (as a man), then that stain could not touch Jesus in any way. Mary still needed The Savior, but in a different way, so as to assure us that Christ was, is, and always will be clean from sin. An analogy is this: you and I have fallen into the mud puddle of sin, both by our birth, as well as by our thoughts and actions. God prevented Mary from touching the mud! Not to raise her up, but to raise up His Son. Maybe that will help at least see where we Catholics are coming from? The Immaculate Conception is not an idea to lift up Mary, but rather a reflection (confirmation, annunciation?) that Jesus Christ is Lord, come to us as both God and man.

Peace in Christ!
 
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PaladinValer

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Can you give a specific point or two about why you a) disagree with the concept of the Immaculate Conception? And b) why you find it unnecessary?

The idea behind it is that Christ, as both God and man, was still without any sin. If man gets the stain of sin from Adam (as a man), then that stain could not touch Jesus in any way. Mary still needed The Savior, but in a different way, so as to assure us that Christ was, is, and always will be clean from sin. An analogy is this: you and I have fallen into the mud puddle of sin, both by our birth, as well as by our thoughts and actions. God prevented Mary from touching the mud! Not to raise her up, but to raise up His Son. Maybe that will help at least see where we Catholics are coming from? The Immaculate Conception is not an idea to lift up Mary, but rather a reflection (confirmation, annunciation?) that Jesus Christ is Lord, come to us as both God and man.

Peace in Christ!

See my above post.

In addition, I assure all that I'm quite knowledgeable of Vatican Catholic theology.
 
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Hawkiz

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See my above post.

In addition, I assure all that I'm quite knowledgeable of Vatican Catholic theology.

Fair enough. Thank you kindly for your reply. I am aware that you have a huge knowledge base, and respect and like your posts often. I fully understand that the Marion Dogmas are difficult to grasp and understand, even for those who are fully Catholic!
Great conversation, though I doubt we will change each other's minds. :).

Peace in Christ!
 
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patricius79

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Because of original sin. It is natural of humans, and if St. Mary is truly purely human, then she was born in it.

The East, and increasingly in the West, has never had the concept of guilt inherently part of original sin like the classic view of the West. So the idea that otherwise she would have been a sinner if she was born in original sin, disappears.

Jesus' birth was indeed immaculate because while He is 100% human, He is also 100% God. If St. Mary enjoyed an immaculate birth, then we run into "well, how divine is she?".=.

I don't understand your logic here. Jesus (the New Adam), in his humanity, is fully and purely human, yet without the stain of Original Sin. So Mary (the New Eve) would not need to partake of Original Sin, either, in order to be human either.

Adam and Eve likewise were created without the stain of Original Sin, and yet were fully human.
 
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PaladinValer

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I don't understand your logic here. Jesus (the New Adam), in his humanity, is fully and purely human, yet without the stain of Original Sin. So Mary (the New Eve) would not need to partake of Original Sin, either, in order to be human either.

Adam and Eve likewise were created without the stain of Original Sin, and yet were fully human.

False comparison. Jesus is also God, which I mentioned.
 
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patricius79

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False comparison. Jesus is also God, which I mentioned.

And he's also fully human, yet without having original sin. Likewise Adam and Eve were fully human without original sin--that is, when they were first created.

If being human meant having original sin, then Adam and Eve weren't human until they sinned, and Jesus was never human.

Of course, God doesn't need us to sin in order to Be who He Is.
 
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PaladinValer

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And he's also fully human, yet without having original sin.

<snip>

Straw Man. Jesus is also God; St. Mary is not. Until that is recognized and rebutted, there is no counterargument.
 
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patricius79

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<snip>

Straw Man. Jesus is also God; St. Mary is not. Until that is recognized and rebutted, there is no counterargument.

I think the counterargument is this: if being human necessarily means having original sin, then Jesus was never human

also, if one doesn't accept that, one has to admit that Adam and Eve were human before Original Sin.
 
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PaladinValer

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I think the counterargument is this: if being human necessarily means having original sin, then Jesus was never human

Except that's also a Straw Man since it was already said Jesus is also 100% human. It is the fact that He is also 100% is why He wasn't born with original sin. That is why St. Mary was born in original sin, though not actual sin and without guilt, unlike her Son.

also, if one doesn't accept that, one has to admit that Adam and Eve were human before Original Sin.

Except that my argument never suggested they weren't human or that they had original sin. Since they are the progenitors who instigated the Fall, they are the only ones guilty of Original Sin. We just on for the ride.

Can a non-Straw Man counter be offered please?
 
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Hawkiz

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Except that's also a Straw Man since it was already said Jesus is also 100% human. It is the fact that He is also 100% is why He wasn't born with original sin. That is why St. Mary was born in original sin, though not actual sin and without guilt, unlike her Son.



Except that my argument never suggested they weren't human or that they had original sin. Since they are the progenitors who instigated the Fall, they are the only ones guilty of Original Sin. We just on for the ride.

Can a non-Straw Man counter be offered please?

Are the things mentioned by God in Genesis 3 (14-19) still true? So while it may be said that Adam and Eve are the only ones 'guilty' of original sin, the repercussions are still felt by all today are they not?
 
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PaladinValer

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Are the things mentioned by God in Genesis 3 (14-19) still true? So while it may be said that Adam and Eve are the only ones 'guilty' of original sin, the repercussions are still felt by all today are they not?

Again, the doctrine of Original Sin is not in question, as my posts have very clearly been consistent on.
 
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patricius79

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Except that's also a Straw Man since it was already said Jesus is also 100% human. It is the fact that He is also 100% is why He wasn't born with original sin. That is why St. Mary was born in original sin, though not actual sin and without guilt, unlike her Son.



Except that my argument never suggested they weren't human or that they had original sin. Since they are the progenitors who instigated the Fall, they are the only ones guilty of Original Sin. We just on for the ride.

Can a non-Straw Man counter be offered please?

I don't see any straw men arguments being made. It sounds like we agree that it is possible to be fully human and yet not subject to Original Sin.
 
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The Bible teaches that Mary, "conceived" Jesus in her womb through her relationship with the Holy Spirit (Lk 1), and that Jesus is "Lord and God" (Jn 20:28).

It seems to me that this says as much in praise of Mary as anything that the Catholic Church's Tradition (2 Thes 2:15) says.

I believe that God's creature, Mary, is the Mother of God, the Refuge of Sinners, the Ark of the Covenant, the Immaculate Conception, and the New Eve.

Without being disrespectful of others, what do you believe about Mary?

Hi patricius,

What do I believe about Mary? That she was a young woman growing up in Israel who was betrothed to a young man named Joseph. That she was like most other young women of her day, although likely more mindful of God and His ways than many others like her. She was likely fairly devout in her love and understanding and adoration to/of God. She was chosen by God to be the woman through whom His Son would be delivered to the world. She died as a sinner like all of us, but with the hope and promise of eternal life through the work of her son. She was absolutely blessed of God to have been given such an honor.

As far as the descriptors that you have used for Mary, I am not much in agreement. However, I allow that each is free to their own understanding.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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I don't see any straw men arguments being made. It sounds like we agree that it is possible to be fully human and yet not subject to Original Sin.

I suggest actually reading what my posts say, because that statement is utterly false.
 
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