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What do you think of Independent Fundamental Baptist Churches?

Discussion in 'Baptists' started by yogosans14, Jun 20, 2013.

  1. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

    +1,806
    Baptist
    Does having a fine university and seminary education make a pastor a “self-righteous sheltered person”?

    Do uneducated pastors give more glory to God than Pastors who recognized the fact that the call to the Christian ministry includes the call to get an excellent education, and who were obedient to God and got that education?

    Paul was NOT highly educated in false doctrine—he was highly educated in the Old Testament, ancient literature, philosophy, etc., and upon his conversion to Christianity, The Holy Spirit used Paul and his knowledge so mightily that he was accused of turning the world upside down!

    When God calls a man to be a physician today, that calling includes getting at least eight years of post-high school education. Indeed, when God calls any man to any profession, that calling includes getting the education required for that profession.

    If God had called a bunch of ignorant fishermen to translate the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek Scriptures, we would not have any Bibles in English, German, French, Dutch, Spanish, Russian, Chinese, or any other contemporary language.

    God calls and uses whom He chooses to get the job done—and some jobs require an extensive education.

    Is your primary care physician “too educated” to “see beyond” herself/himself? Was your primary care physician’s education detrimental or necessary to enable her/him to be a physician? Does your pastor have less education than your primary care physician? One wrong prescription could cost you only your temporal life, but one wrong doctrine could be so fatal that it will cost you your eternal life.

    If God had called a bunch of ignorant fishermen to teach chemistry, physics, biology, and all of the other physical and life sciences in our colleges and universities, your primary care physician would have less ability to care for you than would a witchdoctor from the Belgian Congo!
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2013
  2. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

    +2,584
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    This will be my last post here.

    I realize that people have to be taught, the disciples did, etc.

    Even I was tutored when I was chosen to be a deacon.

    However, it is a sad state in our churches when education is placed above calling.

    Seems to me I remember reading somewhere:

    "...holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." -2 Pet. 1:21 (KJV)

    Its sad for America's churches when education is placed higher than preaches being led by the Holy Spirit.

    Education above calling...sad, very sad.

    Unsubscribing.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  3. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

    +619
    Australia
    Baptist
    Private
    Princeton,

    I endorse much of what you have written here. However, we also need to remember:

    1. Some of the most horrible liberal theology that has destroyed churches and denominations has come out of theological colleges, seminaries and universities. John Dominic Crossan of the Jesus Seminar taught his heretical doctrines to undergraduates in biblical studies for 24 years in DePaul University, Chicago. Ever heard of Burton Mack and some of his theology out of Claremont?

    2. Many of the pastors with minimum theological education that I have listened to down through the years have had little content to their preaching and were shockingly weak presenters - they bored me to tears. One or two of the elders in my local church do the same. I get lots of the Bible reading sone during their sermons (if I bother to go when they are preaching).

    3. I am still of the view that the biblical teaching is that the apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher (Eph 4) are ministry gifts that ought to operate through the local church for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry. But my experience Down Under is that it is not taken seriously by our local churches.

    In Christ, Oz
     
  4. classicalhero

    classicalhero Junior Member

    +398
    Baptist
    Single
    AU-Liberals
    I agree with you 100%.

    1 Cor 8:1-3 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. 2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
    3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.


    The most important thing for a Pastor is the have the Love of God shining in him. It doesn't matter what education that person has, except that he stands on the Bible.
     
  5. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

    +1,806
    Baptist
    No one in this tread has suggested that a man who has not been called by God to the pastoral ministry should step into that office. As you are very much aware, I have, over the years, repeatedly emphasized the all Christians should enter the vocation to which they are called, whether that vocation be the pastor ministry, the medical profession, or any other vocation. However, men who attempt to cheat and circumvent the necessary education that is a part of the call to their profession find themselves in very serious trouble with the laws that have been written to protect the people from such cheaters. Pastors, however, are exempt from such laws, and the cheaters abound.
     
  6. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

    +1,806
    Baptist
    There is a vast difference between an excellent university and seminary education, and the kind of education that produces liberal heretics.

    Local churches are no better equipped to teach Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek than they are equipped to teach medical knowledge. Neither are they equipped to teach the cultures of the ancient world, the interpretation of literature, comparative theology, philosophy, or any of the other disciplines that one studies at a university and seminary. Are there not many universities and seminaries in Australia where a man seeking to become the pastor of an independent Baptist church could get an excellent education?
     
  7. now faith

    now faith Veteran Supporter

    +1,335
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    Paul was educated in false teaching.

    As Saul he was anti Christ if that's not wrong I don't know what is.

    But I really cannot get your point,why contend over simple truths.

    Nothing I posted was untrue,and I did not say all scholars were condescending and self righteous.

    Only ones who discount the value of anyone out side the teaching of there special education.
     
  8. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    I will not debate, I'm here only to provide support for my arguement.

    The pulpits in America today, are full of men with degrees, seminary education that have no business being there.

    Many, many pastors have the qualifications, many letters (B.A, Phd, M.Div., etc.) beside there names, and don't believe the very things they preach.

    For example, David Cox did a survey in the 1970's at a Southern Baptist seminary, the results he discovered were staggering.

    The intention was to find out the results of Modernist/Liberal teachings.

    What was discovered was this:

    http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/liberalsbc.htm

    When churches are led to value education before calling, churches fall into having leaders just like the ones lieted in the above article.

    And that is the exact thing that has been advocated here. Education before calling.

    Yes, there are a great many who have the education, letters beside their names out the wazoo. But don't believe the very doctines or the scriptures they teach.

    And think about it, these men, some are still in the pulpits, and some are the very leaders of our Conventions/Associations.

    It is no wonder God has turned His back on America.

    By all means, place education before calling.

    I'm outta here.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  9. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

    +1,806
    Baptist
    Let us look at the facts that are relevant to independent Baptist churches—the topic of this thread.

    1. The call by God to all vocations includes the implicit call to get the necessary education and training. The very large majority of the pastors of independent Baptist churches lack both the necessary education and training—leaving the churches susceptible to such ridiculously incorrect doctrines as KJOism.

    2. Spending even a lifetime in a third-rate or worse seminary is not going to meet the need for an excellent (or even a good) education; and, as DeaconDean has pointed out, may give the pastor to be an experience that will lead him on the path of death rather than life. Seminaries that believe that their job is to thoroughly indoctrinate their students in the belief system of the owners of seminary are nothing better that brainwashing intuitions, and their students would be much better off taking a five-minute walk through a carwash. And, of course, a student who has earned at least a bachelor’s degree from a good or better university will have the ability to smell at a distance a brainwashing intuition and will head in the opposite direction!

    3. Young men of God who are truly called by God into the pastoral ministry have no difficulty whatsoever understanding the implicit call to get the necessary education and training, and rather than being bitter or resentful of the requirement, they look forward to the opportunity.
     
  10. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Hum, :scratch: unless I'm mistaken, this reads exactly as scripture dictates.

    Funny too, unless its in a book I'm not aware of, I have never read anywhere where one requirement of the bishop/overseer/pastor is to have seminary/college degrees.

    Is that OT? NT? Book chapter verse please.

    [​IMG]

    The Book of modernism, chapter 1, verse 1.

    I got it now.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  11. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

    +619
    Australia
    Baptist
    Private
    The only independent Baptist churches I am aware of, I would not attend as they generally are KJV-only and very legalistic. I'm not interested in attending such to hear myopic views of Christianity.

    Here in Queensland (Brisbane), the leading Baptist theological college is for Queensland Baptists (an evangelical denomination), Malyon College. It would be parallel with the SBC.

    There is an excellent interdenominational, Baptistic, college here, Crossway College, that has been recently renamed to Brisbane School of Theology.

    The Anglican diocese of Sydney is a large one and is unique among Anglicanism here in Australia in that the entire diocese is evangelical in emphasis. Its theological training institution, Moore College, has an excellent record in training strong, theologically competent, pastors.

    These three colleges that I have mentioned have strong accreditation and are of a high standard.

    In Christ,
    Oz
     
  12. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

    +619
    Australia
    Baptist
    Private
    In your list, one of the qualifications was:
    *Able to teach

    In the 21st century, how does one become equipped in a local church to be 'able to teach'? What equipping facility is available in your local church that would facilitate my being 'able to teach'? Or is one gifted with that ability when one is born again?

    Oz
     
  13. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    You know, its funny.

    I have never denied that some men in the scriptures were either taught of God, or were taught by Jesus.

    But I also know that Jesus told us that the Holy Spirit would led us to all truth.

    Evidently, this verse does not apply to bishops/overseers/pastors. They must be educated men.

    I know of a few examples in the scriptures where some men had no formal education at all.

    Seems to me I read somewher that Jeremiah was called to be a prophet from the womb.

    Where was his college/seminary education?

    Where were his degrees?

    Seems to me that I also remember reading somewhere that Timothy was told to appoint elders in every city.

    Who taught the elders that Timothy appointed?

    Did Timothy seek out only those who were "educated men" that held "seminary" or "college" degrees?

    I also remember reading somewhere that we are told to study the scriptures.

    I have not read anywhere in the scriptures where this is followed by the qualifier "in college or seminary".

    I remember reading somewher where holy men of old, spoke as the spirit led them.

    Evidently this cannot be how it is today in the pulpits in America.

    Men speak as they have been educated or within the boundries of college/seminary training.

    A child is born, raised, saved, and baptized in a certain church. Leads the life that scripture says. Is an example to everybody else. And has the calling upon his heart to preach.

    Yet is disqualified because certain members in the church won't vote for them because he has no formal education, no college degree, no seminary education.

    That may sound funny, bat that is the exact arguement some have advocated here.

    I have personally sat under some college/seminary educated men in church, who took scriptures completely out of context, and preached on them a wrong message.

    I know personally of two pastors I have sat under who used 1 Cor. 7:1 to preach that no man/teen boy or girl should get married.

    A college/seminary education guarantees nothing. All it guarantees is that you might get an "educated idiot".

    You know what an educated idiot is?

    An educated idiot can look at a wall, tell you how long it is, tell you how tall it is, tell you how thick it is, how much weight it can withstand.

    But that cannot tell what its for: to separate one room from another.

    As lond as there are people, like some in this area, who would advocate for a college/seminary educated person over a genuine God-called, Holy Spirit led man, I'll fight themm tooth and nail.

    Ibid

    Anybody who goes outside these parameters set by scriptures for the qualifications, is adding to scripture, it is a man-made doctrine.

    And there certainly has been those in here who have advocated outside scriptural qualifications.

    I know there are some in this thread that would throw this up in my face:

    All I can say to that is " first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

    I also guess that Jesus' own words don't mean a thing:

    "And they shall be all taught of God."

    Bishops/overseers/pastors must be taught by colleges and seminaries.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2013
  14. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

    +619
    Australia
    Baptist
    Private
    Dean,

    Where does the Scripture state HOW we are to study the scriptures?

    Nowhere does Scripture state that one should NOT go to college or seminary to learn how to study the scriptures.

    In addition you have committed the logical fallacy of 'appeal to spite' (details below). By stating that 'A college/seminary education guarantees nothing. All it guarantees is that you might get an "educated idiot"', you have

    1. Made the claim that a college/seminary education might lead to getting an 'educated idiot', which is a statement intended to generate spite.
    2. Therefore, it is false to require a college/seminary education.

    I urge you to give up being spiteful towards those who have a college/seminary education and are pastors of churches. This approach causes your argument to be demeaned, which, surely, is not what you want to attain.

    Oz

    Description of Appeal to Spite

    The Appeal to Spite Fallacy is a fallacy in which spite is substituted for evidence when an "argument" is made against a claim. This line of "reasoning" has the following form:

    1. Claim X is presented with the intent of generating spite.
    2. Therefore claim C is false (or true)
    This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because a feeling of spite does not count as evidence for or against a claim.
     
  15. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

    +1,806
    Baptist
    No one in this tread is advocating for a poor education; we are advocating for an excellent education.


    Please stop maliciously and falsely representing what we are writing. No one in this thread is advocating for “a college/seminary educated person over a genuine God-called, Holy Spirit led man.” On the contrary, we have consistently posted that a man who has truly been called by God to the pastoral ministry will recognize the fact that when God calls a man to a vocation, the calling includes the implicit call to get the necessary education and training.

    These words mean very much to those of us who are honest in our posts.
     
  16. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

    +1,806
    Baptist
    I would like to return to the very heart of this thread as expressed in the opening post by reposting my original post in the thread, and adding to it.

    Those independent “Baptist” churches which teach, as very many of them do, that the God-given inspired word of God is the King James Version typically teach that every other translation of the Bible is part of a conspiracy to remove the “King James Bible,” the ONLY real Bible, from “our” churches. They also typically teach that the translators of the “modern versions” are of the devil and a part of the conspiracy. Furthermore, they typically teach that all churches, even Baptist churches, that use, in whole or in part, the “modern versions” are NOT Christian churches and that the members of those churches are NOT Christians.

    These independent “Baptist” churches own very numerous websites on which maliciously false information in presented and taught. They also publish tracts, pamphlets, and books in which false information about the King James Version is taught and in which maliciously false information about the “modern versions” is taught. When asked about Bibles in languages other than English, they typically back off a little and claim that Bibles in other languages may be the inspired word of God IF the New Testament portion is translated from the same Greek “text” that the King James Version is translated from, or from an even more “correct” Greek text. For example, see the following,

    http://www.chick.com/catalog/books/0262.asp

    Their pastors very seldom, if ever, have a good university and seminary education, and seldom have even a bachelor’s degree from an accredited Bible college. Indeed, they may have as little as a second grade education!


    Not all independent Baptist churches hold to such seriously incorrect beliefs and practices, but how serious of a problem is it in those who do?

    There is such a church in my community. The senior pastor has a bachelor’s degree in a secular subject that has nothing to do with the Bible. He has no other post-high school education. He has virtually no knowledge of the New Testament and therefore preaches almost exclusively from the historical books in the Old Testament. He believes and preaches from the pulpit that Churches that use any other English translation of the Bible than the KJV are NOT Christian churches. Furthermore, he expresses from the pulpit his doubt that even the other KJO churches in community are Christian churches. This church has its own K-12 school and the pastor preaches on the eternal danger children are in if they do not attend that school. This church also has on its campus a “Bible” college—and none of the teachers have a college education. The young people are very strongly discouraged from going to any other college, and are repeatedly told that such an education is not only worthless, but also satanic.

    This pastor mocks from the pulpit men of God who have learned the Greek language and aggressively implies that they are relying on corrupt Greek manuscripts (regardless of the textual tradition that they hold to) rather than the word of God as “providentially preserved in the King James Bible.” This church has its own bookstore in which extremely hateful, malicious, and ridiculously false information about “modern versions” of the Bible and their translators is sold.

    How does this KJO independent Baptist church compare with other KJO independent Baptist churches, and how serious are its problems?
     
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