What do you think of Independent Fundamental Baptist Churches?

PrincetonGuy

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There are just so many aides out there that anyone competent enough can get their hands on and read the research of those who have done enough. I have with me a concordance and a Complete Composite dictionary, and those are both elementary books and there is far more research out there. The are lots of commentaries by people who have studied the original languages. There is more than enough info out there for us to get to the bottom of the question on language.

For one it means you can look them up to find out specific means of the various words used in the Bible.

I found this great website about why you shouldn't trust those version of the Greek NT.
The DBS Deserves Its Name - Ten Reasons Why


I think those six requirements are rather valid

Old doesn't mean better. The reason why so many manuscripts are young is that they were in constant use and thus when the manuscript had been used often enough it would be in need of replacing. The fact of the matter is the two oldest manuscripts around don't even agree with each other. The Majority text and the Byzantine text,since they were speakers of Greek.


early on he did the best with what he had and often times for Revelation he had to rely on the Vulgate to help him. But you see with later versions that he had access to better manuscripts with Revelation in it and he changes the Greek very little. When he first released his work, he did make mention of this problem a few times, so the reader would have known about it from the start. It is not like he did that and tried to conceal his efforts.
http://www.reltech.org/TC/v16/Krans2011.pdf
The above document has actual quotes from Erasmus explaining issues with his Greek Text.


As others have said, they added it in not as scripture but as something that you might have found useful. Most Protestants don't find it useful, so they don't include it.

Harry Sturz, for many years Professor of Greek and Chairman of the Theology Department at Biola University in La Mirada, California, wrote an excellent book* in which he presents an excellent and objective defense of the Byzantine text-type as being “an independent witness to an early form of the New Testament text.” Indeed, this book presents the strongest defense in one volume of the Byzantine text-type that I know of. Nonetheless, Sturz in not so blind that he does not see that the Byzantine texts are seriously corrupted.

*Sturz, Harry A. The Byzantine Text-Type & New Testament Textual Criticism. New York: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1984.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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I believe God has preserved his perfect word for us today. In English it is contained in the King James Bible. I believe you can be saved from other translations. I used the NIV when I first was saved. I know many people that believe the King James Bible is without error but have yet to meet one that believed you could only be saved with the King James bible.

The KJV is horribly, and even catastrophically, incorrect in some passage. For example, it reads in 1 Cor. 6:9,

1Co 6:9 Know yee not that the vnrighteous shall not inherite the kingdome of God? Be not deceiued: neither fornicatours, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselues with mankinde, (KJV, 1611)

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (KJV, 1769)

In this verse, the KJV translates the Greek word ἀρσενοκοίτης as “abusers of themselves with mankind.” Not only is this translation a very loose paraphrase, it uses an English word the meaning of which has substantially changed since 1611. Today, with all the news about Roman Catholic priests molesting children, and all the news about elder abuse in nursing homes and elsewhere, the word “abusers” has taken on a very different meaning than it has in the KJV. Today, the word connotes “injury to a victim.” Homosexual activists have tenaciously taken hold of this verse in the KJV and teach that homosexual practices are not sinful unless “injury to a victim” occurs. Therefore, they claim that homosexual practices among consenting adults is not a sin.

The contemporary literature on the Greek word ἀρσενοκοίτης is abundant and extremely technical, and pastors of independent Baptist churches (and especially pastors of KJV ONLY independent Baptist churches) virtually never (if ever) have enough education to read this literature. Consequently, when members of independent Baptist churches come across (on the internet or elsewhere) this literature and it seems to them to expressly teach that homosexual acts are not sinful, the pastor is unable to refute the arguments used in the literature. This widely opens the door for doubt on the part of any church member that has access to the internet, PBS, or other sources where non-Biblical views are presented and adroitly defended.

Homosexuals do not like the NASB,

1 Cor. 6:9. Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10. nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Or the NRSV,

1 Cor. 6:9. Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites,
10. thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers—none of these will inherit the kingdom of God.

And they hate the RSV,

1 Cor. 6:9. Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts,
10. nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

But they love the KJV,

1 Cor. 6:9. Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10. Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

What should be more important to us, ridiculous superstitions about the KJV defended by malicious lies and distortions of the truth—or the salvation of people in the very depths of sin?

By the way, do you and other members of your church know the meaning of the word “abusers” in the context of 1 Cor. 6:9 in the KJV?
 
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classicalhero

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In the time it was written, the translators used an appropriate word for it. just because the meaning has changed, doesn't mean they weren't correct. Don't forget that the word homosexual wasn't around at the time, so they used the best term they could.

Also what line of manuscripts do you believe are the most accurate?
 
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PrincetonGuy

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In the time it was written, the translators used an appropriate word for it. just because the meaning has changed, doesn't mean they weren't correct. Don't forget that the word homosexual wasn't around at the time, so they used the best term they could.

The correct translation in 1611, and also today, is “sodomite,” a word used as early as early as the 14th century. Perhaps the translators believed that word to be too graphic for inclusion in the Scriptures. In 1385, Wycliffe also used a paraphrase, “thei that doon letcheri with men.”

The translation, “homosexual” is also incorrect because in 1 Cor. 6:9, the two partners in the homosexual act are individually spoken of.

The translators of the KJV used scores of words that today have significantly different (in some instances, the opposite) meaning. They were correct in their translation, but using such a translation today in the pulpit and for Bible study is inappropriate.
 
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OzSpen

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The KJB never treated the apocrypha as God's word. It was put in between the 2 testaments as helpful material. Just like the 1611, which I have a reproduction of, contains notes from the translators on the edges of the page.
Why, then, was the Apocrypha dropped from the 1769 revision of the KJV, which is the one that most people read today?

Please tell me where the last 6 Greek verses of the Book of Revelation came from, for Erasmus's Textus Receptus that was used by the KJV of 1611.

Oz
 
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now faith

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It is true that most Independant Fundamental Baptist churches use the KJV. It's purely a traditional thing. However, there are always exceptions to the rule.

What is the number 1 best selling book of all time?

The King James Version of the Holy Bible.

There is nothi9ng wrong with it, its language is antiquated, but other than that, there is nothing wrong with it.

So when this issue comes up, you also have to remember the issues with some of the newer versions. Some are paraphrases, which are not suitable for preaching and teaching.

Then you have the "gender neutral" versions which do is some cases, change the meaning of words, and/or leave some verses completely out.

Then you have the English Standard, and the Revised Versions which try to stay true to the Greek manuscripts.

I really think, coming from an Independant Missioinary Fundamental church, it's more of an issue of what you were brouight up on.

Most people take issue with the KJV because of its language. But I was raised on the KJV, to me personally, it's not that hard to understand.

And after all, it has been tried and true for some 300 years in the U.S. as well as other versions.

As to the "Hell and stuff" issue, let me say this, go abck and look at Jesus' own teachings in the Gospels.

Jesus Christ preached/taught more on hell and eternal punishment than anything else.

And it is important to inform the unsaved of their destination if they harden thier hearts, stifle the working of the Holy Spirit, and reject Him.

Cult?!?

I think not.

From 1969 until 1974, I sat under two very good, Spirit led men who taught/preached hell and damnation.

Thank God for these men.

Personally, I would not sit under a Pastor that wouldn't preach and/or teach hell and damnation.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Amen,
I think the K.J.V. is more poetic,and the verses are easier to remember.
Also there is no hidden agenda by the translators.

As far as independent Baptist,they are just that.

Some are very legal and some are full of joy.

I know four independent Pastors very well,its a split two are very legal and two are come as you are and bless our community's.

On reason for being independent that is common to most is missions.

Most independents,do not want their funding going to a discretionary board to decide.

They would rather work directly with the missionaries.
 
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now faith

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The correct translation in 1611, and also today, is “sodomite,” a word used as early as early as the 14th century. Perhaps the translators believed that word to be too graphic for inclusion in the Scriptures. In 1385, Wycliffe also used a paraphrase, “thei that doon letcheri with men.”

The translation, “homosexual” is also incorrect because in 1 Cor. 6:9, the two partners in the homosexual act are individually spoken of.

The translators of the KJV used scores of words that today have significantly different (in some instances, the opposite) meaning. They were correct in their translation, but using such a translation today in the pulpit and for Bible study is inappropriate.

Before we jump to conclusions on K.J. we should do a side by side comparison.

We need to look at the fundamentals of the gospel and the divine nature of Christ.

The more translations the more change,i would urge anyone to look deeper into this.

I know some have problems with the old English but I have problems with verses removed that relate to Christ Blood and his divinity.
 
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now faith

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Where I've been living in Queensland, Australia, IFB churches have been associated with

  • KJV-only,
  • very legalistic approach to Christian behaviour,
  • isolationist in relation to mixing with other Christians.
  • I used to attend a local Christian ministers' association (some call it the ministers' fraternal) for about 9 years in one city and the IFB church pastor was never to be seen at such a meeting.
  • Some of these churches were so small that they could not afford a pastor.
  • Very conservative in church worship with traditional hymns & organ for music.
  • Pre-mill, pre-trib in eschatology.
How does this line up with your experience in Perth?


Oz (now in Brisbane)

My brother myself and many others who are KJ. Are not always legal.

Many in my group teach from K.J. and expound with the amplified.

The only condition we place is love the Lord God with all your heart.

Know that Christ paid all on the cross and confess Christ is Lord.

God bless thee^_^
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Before we jump to conclusions on K.J. we should do a side by side comparison.

We need to look at the fundamentals of the gospel and the divine nature of Christ.

The more translations the more change,i would urge anyone to look deeper into this.

I know some have problems with the old English but I have problems with verses removed that relate to Christ Blood and his divinity.

I have in my study a compilation of the approximately 15,320 variorum readings found in the ancient Greek manuscripts of Paul’s Epistle to the Romans. In the KJV, there are only 9,422 words in that epistle. Therefore, the KJV “removed” approximately 5,898 words from just that one book of the Bible. How many words do you suppose the KJV left out of the 66 books of the Bible? At the same rate of “removal,” that would amount to approximately 493,448 words being removed from the Bible—your KJV! Shouldn’t you go out and buy a Bible that isn’t missing those 493,448 words?

The more accurate translations of the Bible that we have today do NOT “remove” words from the Bible—they start with an empty page and include only those words for which we have sufficient manuscript evidence for their being genuine Scripture rather than additions to it by the men making copies of the ancient Greek manuscripts!

 
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They believe that the KJV is perfect and without error and they do old timey preaching about Hell and stuff. Do you think they are a cult or they are just like any other Baptist Church?

I am curious - what does it mean for a translation to be perfect?
and - by without error, do they mean free from moral error, or copyist/translation errors?
 
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PrincetonGuy

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OzSpen

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My brother myself and many others who are KJ. Are not always legal.

Many in my group teach from K.J. and expound with the amplified.

The only condition we place is love the Lord God with all your heart.

Know that Christ paid all on the cross and confess Christ is Lord.

God bless thee^_^
Can I presume that when you say, 'legal' that you really mean legalistic?

When I lived my 7 years in Canada & the USA, I tried to obey the law and do all things with my family legally. I don't think that this is what you refer to.

To know that Christ paid for our sins with his death on the cross and to confess Christ as Lord are found in all standard English translations that I have read. I am not referring to the Jehovah's Witnesses' New World Translation.

This we know: The Textus Receptus Greek text used for the KJV NT is not based on the earliest and best MSS. See my article, 'The Greek text, the KJV, and English translations'.

In Christ, Oz
 
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OzSpen

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Amen,
I think the K.J.V. is more poetic,and the verses are easier to remember.
Also there is no hidden agenda by the translators.
So what are the hidden agendas of the translators of the RV, ASV, RSV, NRSV, NIV, NLT, and ESV?

Oz
 
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classicalhero

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Can I presume that when you say, 'legal' that you really mean legalistic?

When I lived my 7 years in Canada & the USA, I tried to obey the law and do all things with my family legally. I don't think that this is what you refer to.

To know that Christ paid for our sins with his death on the cross and to confess Christ as Lord are found in all standard English translations that I have read. I am not referring to the Jehovah's Witnesses' New World Translation.

This we know: The Textus Receptus Greek text used for the KJV NT is not based on the earliest and best MSS. See my article, 'The Greek text, the KJV, and English translations'.

In Christ, Oz
If you mean the oldest, a in Sinainaticus and Vaticanticus, then they are old, but they are not the best. just between the two there are over 3000 differences just in the Gospels. the problem is that many of the modern versions defer to Greek text based on these two manuscripts.
Comparison of codices Sinaiticus and Vaticanus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"It is in fact easier to find two consecutive verses in which these two MSS differ the one from the other, than two consecutive verses in which they entirely agree."
This is a massive problem that can't simply be ignored.
Codex Sinaiticus: It Is Old But Is It The Best?
Codex Sinaiticus: It Is Old But Is It The Best?

Pastor David L. Brown, Ph.D.

I have a number of interesting old Bibles in my library. One is a huge two-volume King James Bible that was printed by John Baskett in 1716-1717. There are only 24 copies of this particular Bible known to exist. It is more than 280 years older than the King James Bible I preach from every Sunday. If you follow the line of thinking of the modern textual critics, I should probably go back to the Basket Bible to confirm the text of the Cambridge Bible I use. However, this would be a grave mistake because this old Bible has two nicknames; the first is the Vinegar Bible, because it titles Luke 20 as "The Parable of the Vinegar" instead of "The Parable of the Vineyard." The second name given to this Bible is "The Basket Full of Errors," because there are so many typographical errors in this Bible. This certainly is a good illustration that the oldest is not necessarily the best!
I have another huge two-volume Bible in my collection. It is an exact facsimile edition of Sinaiticus. The New Testament was printed in 1911 and the Old Testament in 1922. I have been carefully reading the introductory materials and pouring over the text of ALEPH or Codex Sinaiticus. This is one of the manuscripts that textual critics assert is the oldest and the best! But is it? Allow me to quote Kirsopp Lake, the person who prepared the introduction of the New Testament volume.
"The Codex Sinaiticus has been corrected by so many hands that it affords a most interesting and intricate problem to the palaeographer who wishes to disentangle the various stages by which it has reached its present condition...." (Codex Sinaiticus - New Testament volume; page xvii of the introduction).
What is the writer talking about? Did you note the phrase "to disentangle the various stages?" This indicates that there is a scribal problem with this codex and it is a BIG problem. Tischendorf identified four different scribes who were involved writing the original text. However, as many as ten scribes tampered with the codex throughout the centuries. Tischendorf said he "counted 14,800 alterations and corrections in Sinaiticus." Alterations, more alterations, and more alterations were made, and in fact, most of them are believed to be made in the 6th and 7th centuries. "On nearly every page of the manuscript there are corrections and revisions, done by 10 different people." Tischendorf goes on to say,
"...the New Testament...is extremely unreliable...on many occasions 10, 20, 30, 40, words are dropped...letters, words even whole sentences are frequently written twice over, or begun and immediately canceled. That gross blunder, whereby a clause is omitted because it happens to end in the same word as the clause preceding, occurs no less than 115 times in the New Testament."
That brings me to the problem of the di homoeotéleuton omissions in Sinaiticus. The word di homoeotéleuton is Greek for "because of a similar ending." Here are some examples of the sloppy work of the scribes.
Note: In the following passages the italicized, bold words are omitted in Sinaiticus...
1 Cor. 13:1-2. "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. [2] And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."
Here the scribe had copied the verse up to the end of the first "and have not charity," but when he looked up to his example again to continue copying, his eye fell upon the second occurrence of the phrase, from which he continued, omitting all of those words between the two occurrences of the phrase.
Now a more complicated example:
1 Cor. 15:25-27. "For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. [26] The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. [27] For he hath put all things under his feet."
Here it is not immediately clear what has happened. But when it is known that in some early manuscripts the order of clauses is as shown below, once again we see that the scribe's eye has jumped from the first occurrence of a phrase to the second occurrence:
[27] "For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. For he hath put all things under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
And in the very next verse another such omission:
1 Cor. 15:27-28. "But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did subject unto him all things. 28 And when there shall be subjected unto him all things, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."
These di homoeotéleuton omissions number about 300 in the New Testament of Codex Sinaiticus. They are not taken seriously as variant readings by the editors of critical editions and in fact are not even mentioned in the notes of the critical editions of currently used translations. But, the sloppy scribal work, as in "The Vinegar Bible" precludes this old manuscript as being characterized as "the best" does it not?
I turn your attention once again to the introductory material in the Sinaiticus facsimile in my library. Kirsopp Lake says there were three groups and even a four groups of correctors that altered the codex. First, there were the "post Caesarean" possibly even those "at the monastery of St. Catherine's on Mt. Sinai." Second, there were "the intermediate correctors, of which certainly the earliest, and possibly all belonged to Caesarea. They are probably no earlier than the fifth nor later than the seventh century." Third, there are the early correctors, all probably "belonging to the forth and certainly no later than the fifth century." Finally, the latest correctors altered the manuscript probably in the twelfth century.
While Codex Sinaiticus may be old (or may not be since it was corrected into the twelfth century), it is obvious that it is corrupt. And yet, Sinaiticus is one of the two key manuscripts that form the basis of modern Bible versions.
Space does not allow me point out the mutilation of Codex Vaticanus (B). Perhaps I will have the opportunity of sharing this with you in another article. But I can tell you this; I use the King James Bible because 99% of all the manuscript evidence supports the Textus Receptus that underlies it.
Finally, I have one suggestion, as I close. If you are not acquainted with the Greek, you can study the alterations and changes that have come into the New Testament by Sinaiticus and Vaticanus through Westcott and Hort by getting "The Doctored New Testament" (BFT #3138 @ $25 + $5 S&H) by D.A. Waite, Jr. It is available from Bible For Today or the Dean Burgon Society
 
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OzSpen

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If you mean the oldest, a in Sinainaticus and Vaticanticus, then they are old, but they are not the best. just between the two there are over 3000 differences just in the Gospels. the problem is that many of the modern versions defer to Greek text based on these two manuscripts.
Comparison of codices Sinaiticus and Vaticanus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is a massive problem that can't simply be ignored.
Codex Sinaiticus: It Is Old But Is It The Best?
If you have done any copying from one document to another, you know how difficult it is to maintain a perfect record without making errors. I know what happens when I do it on the computer. It is much, much worse when doing it by hand. Then add the complication of writing on papyrus or velum.

When the Textus Receptus is based on much later MSS, it has given copyists the opportunity to make many more slips (called variants) in spelling, putting in or leaving out words/parts of sentences.

You provide links that compare Sinaiticus and Vaticanus. Now compare Sinaiticus with a MSS used by Erasmus in compiling the Textus Receptus. If you do that you can easily see how words were added, changed, etc. - Mark 16:9ff being an example.

The MSS used by Erasmus have been found to be not as reliable as the earlier MSS for some of the reasons I have just given. I'm grateful for the spell checker available on my word processor and on this forum that underlines what it considers are incorrect spelling.

I would defer to the Greek texts of Sinaiticus and Vaticanus any day of the week when compared with the Greek MSS of the 10th century used by Erasmus. Do you know what? He could not find one Greek MSS with the last 6 verses of the Book of Revelation. What did he do? He translated those verses from the Latin Vulgate into Greek. Since that time, more Greek MSS have been found that include the last 6 verse of Revelation and not one of them agrees word-for-word with the translation that Erasmus provided.

I think that your pro KJV, pro Erasmus, pro Textus Receptus stance on the NT has many more difficulties than accepting the earlier MSS of Sinaiticus and Vaticanus.

By the way, new MSS are being regularly found that allow the UBS Greek NT editors to check against these other MSS.

Oz
 
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classicalhero

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Well I believe that God has preserved his word and the people are accurate. While the TR isn't 100% it takes from the majority text and even Erasmus said that it need to be revised. But Dean Burgon gave six things that need to be fulfilled to change the TR and no modern version has fulfilled even one need.
Which Text - Which Foundation
A LOW REGARD FOR THE SCRIPTURES

Would you trust a preacher or a Bible scholar who said the Bible was just a book like any other book? I hope that not a single person listening or reading this would trust him. Yet, millions of Christians, who use the modern versions of the Bible, essentially trust the judgment of those who treat the Bible as just another book. Here's proof...
Dr. Edward Hills wrote, "Westcott (picture to the right) and Hort followed an essentially naturalistic Method. Indeed they prided themselves on treating the text of the New Testament as they would that of any other book, making little or nothing of inspiration and providence." (Edward F. Hills, The King James Version Defended, pp. 65,66).
In other words, they treated the Bible just like they would the works of Plato, Shakespeare, C. S. Lewis, J. K. Rowling or any other fallible book. In fact, neither believed in the infallibility of the Bible.
Brooke Foss Westcott stated emphatically, ""No one now, I suppose, holds that the first three chapters of Genesis, for example, give a literal history - I could never understand how anyone reading them with open eyes could think they did."
Further he wrote, "I never read of the account of a miracle but I seem instinctively to feel its improbability, and discover some want of evidence in the account of it." (Life and Letters of Brooke Foss Westcott; page 216) Again Westcott said, "I reject the word infallibility of Holy Scriptures overwhelmingly." (The Life and Letters of Brook Foss Westcott, p.207).
Concerning Fenton John Anthony Hort (picture to the right), Dr. Wilbur Pickering writes, "Hort did not hold to a high view of inspiration." (The Identity of the New Testament Text, p.212).
Some might protest that the low regard of the Scriptures held by Westcott and Hort has nothing to do with the modern versions of today. You are wrong.
First, the new Bible versions are built on the Greek New Testament compiled by them.
Secondly, current day New Version Potentate Princeton Theological Seminary Professor Bruce Metzger has a low regard for the Scriptures as well. He doubts Moses alone authored the Pentateuch. As Co-editor of the New Oxford Annoted Bible RSV he wrote or approved of notes asserting that the Pentateuch is "a matrix of myth, legend, and history" that "took shape over a long period of time" and is "not to be read as history." Job is called an "ancient folktale." And the book of Isaiah was written by as least three men. Jonah is called "popular legend." Then add to that that Metzger claims that the Gospels are composed of material gathered from oral tradition. The problem is, he completely ignores the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and the testimony of the Bible itself!
"And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel."
Jesus said, "Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?"
Jesus said, "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
Let me ask you a question. How can you trust a Bible that has been tampered with by men who neither respect it nor hold it in any higher regard than they would the works of Shakespeare? The answer is clear, you cannot.
Next, let's consider the manuscripts that were used. The modern versions are built on...
A FEW CORRUPT MANUSCRIPTS

For a more complete treatment of this issue, log on to The Great? Uncials and read my article The Great? Uncials.
As you will recall, I shared with you a quote by Bruce Metzger. He tells how they developed their Greek text for the modern versions. He said, "We took as our base at the beginning the text of Westcott and Hort and introduced changes as seemed necessary on the basis of MSS evidence."
So, what manuscripts did Westcott and Hort use to get their Greek New Testament They used primarily two old 4th century manuscripts for their work. Hort's partiality for Codex Vaticanus (B) was practically absolute. Intuitively (without evidence) he believed it to be a near perfect representation of the Greek New Testament. Whenever pages were missing in Vaticanus he would use Codex Sinaiticus (ALEPH) to fill in the gap. And there was plenty missing from Vaticanus. Barry Burtons writes in his book Let's Weigh the Evidence -- "it omits...Matthew 3, the Pauline Pastoral Epistles (1 & 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon), Hebrews 9:14 to 13:25, and all of Revelation... in the gospels alone it leaves out 237 words, 452 clauses and 748 whole sentences, which hundreds of later copies agree together as having the same words in the same places, the same clauses in the same places and the same sentences in the same places." Floyd Jones further notes that Matthew 16:2-3 and Romans 16:24 are missing.
Here is another interesting fact. "It contains the Epistle of Barnabas...which teaches that water baptism saves the soul." (Which Version is The Bible? by Floyd Jones; published by Global Evangelism of Goodyear Arizona; p. 68).
"Erasmus knew about Vaticanus B and its variant readings in 1515 AD while preparing the New Testament the New Testament Greek text. Because they read so differently from the fast majority of mss which he had seen, Erasmus considered such readings spurious." (Which Version is The Bible? by Floyd Jones; published by Global Evangelism of Goodyear Arizona; p. 68). Further, as I understand it, Vaticanus was available to the translators of the King James Bible, but they did not use it because they knew it is unreliable..." It wasn't until 1889-1890 that a complete facsimile was made. The manuscript remains in Vatican City to this day.
Here is a key fact you should know about Codex Vaticanus (B) -- "The entire manuscript has had the text mutilated, every letter has been run over with a pen, making exact identification of many of the characters impossible." More specifically, the manuscript is faded in places; scholars think it was overwritten letter by letter in the 10th or 11th century, with accents and breathing marks added along with corrections from the 8th, 10th and 15th centuries. Those who study manuscripts say, All this activity makes precise paleographic analysis impossible. Missing portions were supplied in the 15th century by copying other Greek manuscripts. How can you call this manuscript "the oldest and the best."
A corrector of the text had erased a word in verse 3 and substituted another word in its place. A second corrector came along, erased the correction, reinserted the original word, and wrote a note in the margin to castigate the first corrector. The note reads, "Fool and knave, leave the old reading, don't change it!"

What about Codex Sinaiticus (ALEPH)? This is a Greek manuscript of the Old and New Testaments, found on Mount Sinai, in St. Catherine's Monastery, which was a Greek Orthodox Monastery, by Constantine Tischendorf. He was visiting there in 1844, under the patronage of Frederick Augustus, King of Saxony, when he discovered 34 leaves in a rubbish basket forty-three leaves. He was permitted to take them, but did not get the remainder of the manuscript until 1859. Konstantin Von Tischendorf identified the handwriting of four different scribes in the writing of that text. But that is not the end of the scribal problems! The early corrections of the manuscript are made from Origen's corrupt source. As many as ten scribes tampered with the codex. Tischendorf said he "counted 14,800 alterations and corrections in Sinaiticus." Alterations, and more alterations, and more alterations were made, and in fact, most of them are believed to be made in the 6th and 7th centuries. So much for the oldest!
"On nearly every page of the manuscript there are corrections and revisions, done by 10 different people." He goes on to say, "...the New Testament...is extremely unreliable...on many occasions 10, 20, 30, 40, words are dropped...letters, words even whole sentences are frequently written twice over, or begun and immediately canceled. That gross blunder, whereby a clause is omitted because it happens to end in the same word as the clause preceding, occurs no less than 115 times in the New Testament."
Here are several examples of di homoeotéleuton omissions. The word di homoeotéleuton is Greek for "because of a similar ending." Here are some examples of the sloppy work of the scribes.
Note: In the following passages the italicized, bold words are omitted in Sinaiticus...
. Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
Here the scribe had copied the verse up to the end of the first "and have not charity," but when he looked up to his example again to continue copying, his eye fell upon the second occurrence of the phrase, from which he continued, omitting all of those words between the two occurrences of the phrase.
Now a more complicated example:
. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet.
Here it is not immediately clear what has happened. But when it is known that in some early manuscripts the order of clauses is as shown below, once again we see that the scribe's eye has jumped from the first occurrence of a phrase to the second occurrence:
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. For he hath put all things under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
And in the very next verse another such omission:
. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did subject unto him all things. 28 And when there shall be subjected unto him all things, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
These di homoeotéleuton omissions number about 300 in the New Testament of Codex Sinaiticus. They are not taken seriously as various readings by the editors of critical editions and in fact are not even mentioned in the notes of the critical editions of currently used translations. (Information Critical use of manuscripts ).
While these manuscripts may be (or may not be) old, it is obvious that they are corrupt. It is these corrupt manuscripts that form the basis to the modern Bible versions.
However, that is NOT the case with our King James Version of the Bible. It is based on...
MASSIVE MANUSCRIPT EVIDENCE

While it is true that there are about 45 to 50 Greek manuscripts that support the Westcott/Hort Greek text that underlies the modern versions of the Bible, you must realize that there are more than 5000 that support the Textus Receptus type text that underlies our King James Bible. Figure it out. 99% of all the manuscript evidence supports the text type that the King James Bible is translated from. Further, this text type is overwhelmingly supported by the early church fathers.
Christian friends, there is no doubt in my mind that underlying the King James New Testament is a superior Greek text!
While there are many more things that could be said, this will be my final point, that relating to the method of translation.

FORMAL EQUIVALENCY - A SUPERIOR METHOD OF TRANSLATION

The King James Bible translators used a superior method in translating called formal equivalency. Formal Equivalence, sometimes called Verbal Equivalence is a method of translation, which takes the Greek, and Hebrew words and renders them as closely as possible into English. This is the method used by the King James translators and is certainly a superior method, seeing that our Lord is concerned about every word, even the jots and tittles (Matthew 5:18; 24:35).

The modern versions of the Bible use dynamic equivalency, also called concept inspiration in their translations. Dynamic Equivalence is not following a word for word translation but changing, adding, or subtracting from the original to make it flow as the translator sees fit. We are warned against this in the Bible (). The New International Version is this type of a version.
Then, there is one further step that is even worse and that is paraphrasing. Paraphrasing is simply taking what the text says and rewriting it to what you think it says. It is more like a condensed commentary that a Bible. The most popular paraphrase is the Living Bible. It is really not a translation at all!
I use the King James Bible because it certainly is superior in its translation. There is much more that could be said, but I will save that for another time. Therefore I will move to the summary.
The King James Bible is built on the foundation of faith by men who had a high regard for the Bible, Massive manuscript evidence to support their work. They meticulously translated the Greek and Hebrew words, renders them as closely as possible into English.
The Modern versions are built on a foundation of doubt by men who have a low regard for the Bible. A few corrupt manuscripts were used to support their work. For the most part, they loosely translated the concepts of the Greek and Hebrew and some versions are even sloppier, not translating at all but paraphrasing.
I have to wonder. If you are not using the King James Bible, why not?
 
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PrincetonGuy

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PrincetonGuy

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Well I believe that God has preserved his word and the people are accurate. While the TR isn't 100% it takes from the majority text and even Erasmus said that it need to be revised. But Dean Burgon gave six things that need to be fulfilled to change the TR and no modern version has fulfilled even one need.
Which Text - Which Foundation

I read this article to which you provided a link. The article was written by David L. Brown, the pastor of the First Baptist Church of Oak Creek in Wisconsin. This pastor has virtually no knowledge of the subject of variorum readings in the ancient manuscripts of the New Testament—and he does not know the difference between faith and presumption!

He begins his article with these statements:

THE FOUNDATION OF FAITH
Let's begin with the foundation of faith. The key issue is this: I believe that God inspired the original writings of the Bible, which are called the autographa. There are many verses that teach this. Here are two key verses that I want you to see...
< Peter>"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation (that is, they did not originate with man). 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
< Timothy>"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
But, there is also the matter of verbal preservation of the apographa (copies of the originals). I believe that God has preserved His Words in the copies of those original writings in the Hebrew Masoretic Text of the Old Testament and the Traditional Text (Textus Receptus) of the New Testament.
I have FAITH that the God who inspired the original autographs can and did preserve the apographs so that we can say, "Thus saith the Lord; This IS the Word of God" when we hold up our King James Bibles.
Faith is believing what God says; presumption is believing that God has done or will do that which we desire of Him BUT which he has NOT said he has done or will do. Never once in the Scriptures has God said that He would preserve any manuscripts of any part of the Bible! Indeed, David Brown’s entire article is based upon his own presumptions and maliciously false information.

The New Testament text primarily used by the translators of the King James Version was the third edition of Robert Estienne’s text of 1550. It is commonly called the Textus Receptus although the true Textus Receptus was not published until 1633. Only one of the five primary uncial manuscripts of the New Testament, the Codex Bezae, was yet available and apparently it was not used. Of the 5,359 manuscripts we now have of the New Testament, the King James Version translators had less than 25 available to them and they were of late origin. Indeed, their primary text was so poor by today's standards that it is commonly called a “corrupt” text by today’s scholars. It contains words and phrases that are not found in any known Greek manuscript. For example, the phrase translated, “him that livith for ever and ever” (Rev. 5:14) and the words translated, “and he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him” (Acts 9:6). (Continued below)
 
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