• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

What do you think of Independent Fundamental Baptist Churches?

Discussion in 'Baptists' started by yogosans14, Jun 20, 2013.

  1. yogosans14

    yogosans14 Newbie

    +111
    Christian
    Single
    They believe that the KJV is perfect and without error and they do old timey preaching about Hell and stuff. Do you think they are a cult or they are just like any other Baptist Church?
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

    +2,583
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    It is true that most Independant Fundamental Baptist churches use the KJV. It's purely a traditional thing. However, there are always exceptions to the rule.

    What is the number 1 best selling book of all time?

    The King James Version of the Holy Bible.

    There is nothi9ng wrong with it, its language is antiquated, but other than that, there is nothing wrong with it.

    So when this issue comes up, you also have to remember the issues with some of the newer versions. Some are paraphrases, which are not suitable for preaching and teaching.

    Then you have the "gender neutral" versions which do is some cases, change the meaning of words, and/or leave some verses completely out.

    Then you have the English Standard, and the Revised Versions which try to stay true to the Greek manuscripts.

    I really think, coming from an Independant Missioinary Fundamental church, it's more of an issue of what you were brouight up on.

    Most people take issue with the KJV because of its language. But I was raised on the KJV, to me personally, it's not that hard to understand.

    And after all, it has been tried and true for some 300 years in the U.S. as well as other versions.

    As to the "Hell and stuff" issue, let me say this, go abck and look at Jesus' own teachings in the Gospels.

    Jesus Christ preached/taught more on hell and eternal punishment than anything else.

    And it is important to inform the unsaved of their destination if they harden thier hearts, stifle the working of the Holy Spirit, and reject Him.

    Cult?!?

    I think not.

    From 1969 until 1974, I sat under two very good, Spirit led men who taught/preached hell and damnation.

    Thank God for these men.

    Personally, I would not sit under a Pastor that wouldn't preach and/or teach hell and damnation.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  3. classicalhero

    classicalhero Junior Member

    +398
    Baptist
    Single
    AU-Liberals
    I am a member of an Independent Fundamental Baptist church and obviously you don't understand what is means. Sure we prefer to us to KJV, but that doesn't mean we believe it is perfect. We understand the limitations of any translation of the Bible, since you need to understand some of the original language. Well we preach what Jesus preached about and he most definitely preached about hell.
     
  4. ChaseWind

    ChaseWind Guest

    +0
    Having been a member of 2 Independent Fundamental Baptist churches in the USA, I'm curious how similar they are to you in Australia. The major argument I heard from Pastors on staying with the KJV was the assembly needed a standard without variance. You do not have, "The KJV says...." and another, "But the NRSV reads..." The KJV was seen as blessed of God for 300 years and that was enough endorsement so it was the standard, but I've not known a Pastor to reject a layman's use of other versions in his personal study.

    I find IFB churches vary widely in 'personality' depending upon the Pastor's personality and viewpoints. The IFB churches I'm familiar with, the Pastor is virtually the dictator, for he must give account for the souls of his congregation, therefore he rules. I find that extreme because you never know what you'll find upon going to a new IFB church.

    I've not seen an IFB church that is not pre-mil and pre-trib with eyes on Israel in the news all the time. If you are a-mil or post-mil you are eyed as somehow illiterate in Scripture. :D

    Overall, I've found the IFB churches to be the most friendly and 'family-like' of any churches I've attended. The most kind and caring Pastors I've ever met were in IFB churches. I'm a 'free-grace' believer but sadly, I have found the neo-Calvinist style Baptists to be some of the most cold, unfriendly and critical churches I've attended.
     
  5. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

    +1,830
    Baptist
    Those independent “Baptist” churches which teach, as very many of them do, that the God-given inspired word of God is the King James Version typically teach that every other translation of the Bible is part of a conspiracy to remove the “King James Bible,” the ONLY real Bible, from “our” churches. They also typically teach that the translators of the “modern versions” are of the devil and a part of the conspiracy. Furthermore, they typically teach that all churches, even Baptist churches, that use, in whole or in part, the “modern versions” are NOT Christian churches and that the members of those churches are NOT Christians.

    These independent “Baptist” churches own very numerous websites on which maliciously false information in presented and taught. They also publish tracts, pamphlets, and books in which false information about the King James Version is taught and in which maliciously false information about the “modern versions” is taught. When asked about Bibles in languages other than English, they typically back off a little and claim that Bibles in other languages may be the inspired word of God IF the New Testament portion is translated from the same Greek “text” that the King James Version is translated from, or from an even more “correct” Greek text. For example, see the following,

    http://www.chick.com/catalog/books/0262.asp

    Their pastors very seldom, if ever, have a good university and seminary education, and seldom have even a bachelor’s degree from an accredited Bible college. Indeed, they may have as little as a second grade education!

    However, not all independent Baptist churches hold to such seriously incorrect beliefs and practices.
     
  6. The Conductor

    The Conductor Χριστῷ συνεσταύρωμαι

    263
    +37
    Christian
    Single
    Isn't part of the independent bit that they are typically independent of one another? I grew up with some folks that went to an independent Baptist church, and aside from seeming a bit old-timey they seemed fine. I think, like all churches, you should look at them on an individual basis. I've heard of some churches in my local, non-independant convention that I wouldn't go to unless I was on a rescue mission.
     
  7. FundamentalistJohn

    FundamentalistJohn Regular Member

    644
    +50
    Protestant
    Married
    US-Republican

    I don't see anything wrong with either the KJV or preaching about "Hell and stuff." What do you find wrong with it?
     
  8. yogosans14

    yogosans14 Newbie

    +111
    Christian
    Single
    Well I dont like how they preach that the modern Bibles like the NIV which I love is from Satan, it helps me understand Gods word better so why should I have to use a outdated english Bible?
     
  9. SeventhValley

    SeventhValley Guest

    +0
    I love the KJV and the NKJV but they are not better than any other Bible. Each translation has its strength and weaknesses.

    The tradition argument is the best for the KJV. Whe have used it for hundreds of years in English speaking countries.The NKJV is a language update of it but pretty similar. But even the KJV is not perfect. The KJV uses the Masoretic text for the OT. For over a thousand years Christians used the Septuagint for the OT.

    I love the NKJV because it is a balance of traditional language and terminology of the KJV but easier to read. The KJV will never steer you wrong.

    The KJV also uses the Textus Receptus for the NT. IT has verses not found in other NT manuscripts so depending on which set of manuscripts that a translator used to translate the NT from will depend on how many verses you have in each book of the Bible.

    Ultimately the best Bible is the one you read.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 22, 2013
  10. FundamentalistJohn

    FundamentalistJohn Regular Member

    644
    +50
    Protestant
    Married
    US-Republican


    Are you forced to go there? Their argument (most of the time) is that the resources used for the KJV are more reliable. (I don't believe this is true but some of them do) Or they may argue that the translators themselves were inspired (I don't believe this either) But they still are using a very good Bible and if you don't like it, don't go there. I would also point out that not all Independent Fundamentalist Baptist Churches are King James Onlyist Churches. I simply don't understand why people complain about xyz church when they have the option to go elsewhere. In some countries this might be a problem but in the U.S. it seems there are baptist Churches on every street corner.
     
  11. Scott4Him

    Scott4Him Newbie

    191
    +4
    Christian
    Married
    I've asked a KJVO proponent before:

    If I read another translation and discover that-

    God is holy, I am not and I am in need of a Saviour, who is Jesus Christ. Jesus is God Himself, who became a human, lived a perfect life, died for the sins of the world and rose again. I believe and repent, trusting in Jesus' finished work on the cross for my salvation...

    Am I saved if I learned that from another translation?

    He told me, probably not because I'm reading from a wrong version. And who knows whar false doctrines I'm learning there?

    Granted, not all KJVO people would say thay.
     
  12. MatthewDiscipleofGod

    MatthewDiscipleofGod Senior Veteran

    +261
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    I believe God has preserved his perfect word for us today. In English it is contained in the King James Bible. I believe you can be saved from other translations. I used the NIV when I first was saved. I know many people that believe the King James Bible is without error but have yet to meet one that believed you could only be saved with the King James bible.
     
  13. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

    +674
    Australia
    Baptist
    Private
    Where I've been living in Queensland, Australia, IFB churches have been associated with

    • KJV-only,
    • very legalistic approach to Christian behaviour,
    • isolationist in relation to mixing with other Christians.
    • I used to attend a local Christian ministers' association (some call it the ministers' fraternal) for about 9 years in one city and the IFB church pastor was never to be seen at such a meeting.
    • Some of these churches were so small that they could not afford a pastor.
    • Very conservative in church worship with traditional hymns & organ for music.
    • Pre-mill, pre-trib in eschatology.
    How does this line up with your experience in Perth?


    Oz (now in Brisbane)
     
  14. classicalhero

    classicalhero Junior Member

    +398
    Baptist
    Single
    AU-Liberals
    The problem with the NIV(We sometime joking call it the Not Inspired Version) because of the method of translation. It use thought for thought far too often and thus obscures the meaning of some words. That way if you need to go to the Greek to understand it better, then that is harder in the NIV than compared to other version. The best translations are ones that use the Formal equivalence since they generally translate word for word, thus making it easier to go back to the original language and get a deeper understanding of the Bible.

    Also the best translations use the majority text and not the oldest text from their Greek. Far too many version rely on two manuscripts that are very old, but they are like that since they were put away since the readers knew that they were full of errors and thus not used. In fact Sinainaticus was found in a rubbish dump on the monastery grounds, which shows how highly thought of it was.
    I believe that there can never be a perfect translation, which is why with any version you should be able to go back to the Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic to get a deeper understanding of the words. No matter how careful a translation, things will be lost in translation, due to the nature of the original languages and the language they are translated into.
    We use the KJV as a preference but if someone uses another version, then we won't put the down for doing that.
    We are most definitely not legalistic.
    We have meetings with other Churches of like faith. We don't mix with those who are not doctrinally similar.
    Some are, but most aren't.
    We used to have an organ, but we mostly play a piano.
    The churches of similar stance are both,which is what the Bible teaches.
     
  15. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

    +674
    Australia
    Baptist
    Private
    Do you know NT Greek to the point where you can translate it?

    From where do you get the idea that 'formal equivalence' translations are the 'best translations'?
    You don't seem to have an understanding of how the UBS Nestle/Aland Greek text was compiled.

    Please tell me where the majority of MSS for the Textus Receptus came from and from which centuries?

    From where did Erasmus get the last 6 Greek verses of the Book of Revelation that he included in the Textus Receptus?

    Please tell me about the Apocrypha that was included with the original KJV of 1611. Is this the KJV that your church approves.

    Oz
     
  16. MatthewDiscipleofGod

    MatthewDiscipleofGod Senior Veteran

    +261
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    The KJB never treated the apocrypha as God's word. It was put in between the 2 testaments as helpful material. Just like the 1611, which I have a reproduction of, contains notes from the translators on the edges of the page.
     
  17. SeventhValley

    SeventhValley Guest

    +0
    Most pastors I have spoken with say the apocrypha is helpful but just to keep it's use in context for what it is.
     
  18. classicalhero

    classicalhero Junior Member

    +398
    Baptist
    Single
    AU-Liberals
    There are just so many aides out there that anyone competent enough can get their hands on and read the research of those who have done enough. I have with me a concordance and a Complete Composite dictionary, and those are both elementary books and there is far more research out there. The are lots of commentaries by people who have studied the original languages. There is more than enough info out there for us to get to the bottom of the question on language.
    For one it means you can look them up to find out specific means of the various words used in the Bible.
    I found this great website about why you shouldn't trust those version of the Greek NT.
    The DBS Deserves Its Name - Ten Reasons Why
    I think those six requirements are rather valid
    Old doesn't mean better. The reason why so many manuscripts are young is that they were in constant use and thus when the manuscript had been used often enough it would be in need of replacing. The fact of the matter is the two oldest manuscripts around don't even agree with each other. The Majority text and the Byzantine text,since they were speakers of Greek.

    early on he did the best with what he had and often times for Revelation he had to rely on the Vulgate to help him. But you see with later versions that he had access to better manuscripts with Revelation in it and he changes the Greek very little. When he first released his work, he did make mention of this problem a few times, so the reader would have known about it from the start. It is not like he did that and tried to conceal his efforts.
    http://www.reltech.org/TC/v16/Krans2011.pdf
    The above document has actual quotes from Erasmus explaining issues with his Greek Text.

    As others have said, they added it in not as scripture but as something that you might have found useful. Most Protestants don't find it useful, so they don't include it.
     
  19. PrincetonGuy

    PrincetonGuy Veteran

    +1,830
    Baptist
    I have many different copies and editions of the King James Version in my study, and I took a look at them to see how accurately the wording has been preserved.. I started in the New Testament, and I did not have to read very far before I came to some differences in the wording. I found Matt. 4:2 especially interesting. Here is a summary of what found. Notice especially the last phrase in that verse.

    Mat 4:2 And when hee had fasted forty dayes and forty nights, hee was afterward an hungred. 1611

    Mat 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungered. 1817

    Mat 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward a hungered. 1824

    Mat 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 1867

    Mat 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward a hungered. 1874

    Mat 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 1898

    Mat 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. No date, Oxford Bible

    Mat 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 1917, Scofield Bible (Oxford)

    Mat 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. No date, recent, Oxford Bible

    Mat 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. No date, recent, Cambridge Bible

    Mat 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward ahungered. 1971, American Bible Society


    We find here five different renderings of the last phrase in Matt. 4:2, all them in King James Bibles:

    hee was afterward an hungred.
    he was afterward an hungered.
    he was afterward a hungered.
    he was afterward an hungred.
    he was afterward ahungered.

    Has the KJV preserved for all eternity God’s Holy Word in English? My grandmother did a better job than this of preserving her strawberries.

    But that is not all! How about the readability? What English grammatical form are the printers attempting to render here, and precisely what does it mean? Do any of you King James Version readers know the answer to that question? And what is the difference between being “an hungered” (etc.) and being “hungry?” Do any of you King James Version readers know the answer to that question?

    God preserved Matt. 4:2 in Greek, and the Greek text here is very plain and easy to read. The KJV is sadly confused and obscure.

    The NASB, 1995, is very plain and easy to read, “He then became hungry,” an accurate, very readable translation of the Greek wording here where a third person singular active aorist indicative Greek verb is used. The very same third person singular active aorist indicative Greek verb is used in Mark 11:12 and, of course, the NASB translates this identical verb in an identical manner. In the KJV, however, this identical verb in Mark 11:12 is translated differently than it is in Matt. 4:2, using a less precise translation than that found in the NASB.

    Mark 11:12 And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry. (KJV, all editions)

    Anyone, anyone at all, who is familiar with New Testament Greek and the translations of it in the KJV and NASB, 1995, knows for an absolute, incontrovertible fact that the translation of the Greek New Testament found in the NASB, 1995, is VERY much more accurate than the translation of the Greek New Testament found in any edition of KJV. Who would want to drive an old, broken-down Chevy when for the same price he could drive a Rolls Royce Bentley? A country farmer might reply, “My Chevy gets me where I’m goin’.” But that is not always true! It breaks down in Matt. 4:2, Mark 11:12, and thousands of other places in the New Testament alone!
     
  20. motherprayer

    motherprayer Elisha

    +491
    Christian
    Married
    IFB Church Member here :)

    Here's a link to a video from one of our services. We are KJVO, believe in the 5 fundamentals of faith, and we also believe that once a person accepts Christ as their personal Saviour, they are officially and permanantly saved - from hell.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNGqbnKk6Bc
     
Loading...