What do YOU think? Forgiveness before and after the cross

[Br4nd0n]

Jesus was forgiving peoples sin before he went to the cross in mat 9 because h3 had the authority to.

The fellow who pointed this out said Jesus forgave that persons personal sin, but later it would be the sin of Adam that had to still be dealt with for Jesus to go on the cross and be resurrected.

Was He atoning the cripple on his mat (covering over his sin)? And later the cripple would have to be justified? Im not exactly sure

Pretty interesting, anybody want to expand on the difference of Jesus forgiving before and after the cross?

 

[HTacianas]

Jesus was forgiving peoples sin before he went to the cross in mat 9 because h3 had the authority to.

The fellow who pointed this out said Jesus forgave that persons personal sin, but later it would be the sin of Adam that had to still be dealt with for Jesus to go on the cross and be resurrected.

Was He atoning the cripple on his mat (covering over his sin)? And later the cripple would have to be justified? Im not exactly sure

Pretty interesting, anybody want to expand on the difference of Jesus forgiving before and after the cross?

Note that I do not hold to the Western ideas about original sin. But Jesus forgave people's sins on earth because he had the authority to forgive sins. And when he did, all of the person's previous sins were forgiven. However you want to put that, it remains the same. All of their previous sins were forgiven. After the crucifixion we are offered forgiveness of previous sins through baptism. Water baptism serves the same purpose as being in the presence of Christ just as the thief on the cross.

 

[bling]

Jesus was forgiving peoples sin before he went to the cross in mat 9 because h3 had the authority to.

The fellow who pointed this out said Jesus forgave that persons personal sin, but later it would be the sin of Adam that had to still be dealt with for Jesus to go on the cross and be resurrected.

Was He atoning the cripple on his mat (covering over his sin)? And later the cripple would have to be justified? Im not exactly sure

Pretty interesting, anybody want to expand on the difference of Jesus forgiving before and after the cross?

Paul talks about those before the crucifixion but you have to really study what he said:

God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished... (Rom. 3:25, NIV)

This verse does provide a lot of information about how sins prior to Christ going to the cross were handled.

First off: Paul is giving the extreme contrast between the way sins where handle prior to the cross and after the cross, so if they were actually handled the same way “by the cross” there would be no contrast, just a time factor, but Paul said (forgiven) sins prior to the cross where left “unpunished”, but that also means the forgiven “sinner” after the cross were punished.

From Romans 3: 25 Paul tells us: God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. …

Another way of saying this would be “God offers the ransom payment (Christ Crucified and the blood that flowed from Him) to those that have the faith to receive that ransom. A lack of faith results in the refusal of the ransom payment (Christ crucified).

God is not the undeserving kidnapper nor is satan, but the unbeliever himself is holding back the child of God from the Father, that child that is within every one of us.

Paul goes on to explain:

Ro. 3: 25 …He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

I do not like the word “unpunished” but would use “undisciplined” (you discipline your children and do not punish your children).

So prior to the cross repentant forgiven people (saved individuals) could not be fairly and justly disciplined for their rebellious disobedience, but after the cross if we repent (come to our senses and turn to God) we can be fairly and justly disciplined and yet survive.

If you think about the crucifixion, you would realize, at the time Christ was on the cross, God in heaven out of empathy/Love for Christ would be experience an even greater pain than Christ. We as our Love grows and our realization of what we personally caused Christ to go through will feel a death blow to our hearts (Acts 2:37). We will experience the greatest pain we could experience and still live, which is the way God is disciplining us today and for all the right reasons because Loving discipline correctly accepted results in a wondrous relationship with our parent. (We can now comfortably feel justified before God.)

God and Christ would have personally preferred Christ’s blood to remain flowing through his veins, but it is I, who needs that blood outside of Christ to flowing over me and in me cleansing my heart. I need to feel that blood and know it is cleansing me.

 

[HTacianas]

Paul talks about those before the crucifixion but you have to really study what he said:

God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished... (Rom. 3:25, NIV)

This verse does provide a lot of information about how sins prior to Christ going to the cross were handled.

First off: Paul is giving the extreme contrast between the way sins where handle prior to the cross and after the cross, so if they were actually handled the same way “by the cross” there would be no contrast, just a time factor, but Paul said (forgiven) sins prior to the cross where left “unpunished”, but that also means the forgiven “sinner” after the cross were punished.

From Romans 3: 25 Paul tells us: God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. …

Another way of saying this would be “God offers the ransom payment (Christ Crucified and the blood that flowed from Him) to those that have the faith to receive that ransom. A lack of faith results in the refusal of the ransom payment (Christ crucified).

God is not the undeserving kidnapper nor is satan, but the unbeliever himself is holding back the child of God from the Father, that child that is within every one of us.

Paul goes on to explain:

Ro. 3: 25 …He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

I do not like the word “unpunished” but would use “undisciplined” (you discipline your children and do not punish your children).

So prior to the cross repentant forgiven people (saved individuals) could not be fairly and justly disciplined for their rebellious disobedience, but after the cross if we repent (come to our senses and turn to God) we can be fairly and justly disciplined and yet survive.

If you think about the crucifixion, you would realize, at the time Christ was on the cross, God in heaven out of empathy/Love for Christ would be experience an even greater pain than Christ. We as our Love grows and our realization of what we personally caused Christ to go through will feel a death blow to our hearts (Acts 2:37). We will experience the greatest pain we could experience and still live, which is the way God is disciplining us today and for all the right reasons because Loving discipline correctly accepted results in a wondrous relationship with our parent. (We can now comfortably feel justified before God.)

God and Christ would have personally preferred Christ’s blood to remain flowing through his veins, but it is I, who needs that blood outside of Christ to flowing over me and in me cleansing my heart. I need to feel that blood and know it is cleansing me.

That is not what that means. The "sins committed beforehand" are our own sins committed prior to baptism.

 

[bling]

That is not what that means. The "sins committed beforehand" are our own sins committed prior to baptism.

The context is before and after Christ dying on the cross. Paul is talking to a large group of Jewish and gentile Christian and needed to show that they are now being treated equally.

 

[Tolworth John]

anybody want to expand on the difference of Jesus forgiving before and after the cross?

There is no difference.
Prior to the crucifixion every in history looks forward to calvary.
Following Jesus's resurrection everything now looks back to calvery.
So Adams sin, that paralitic on his mat, the lame man out side the te ple, you and me, our sins are all delt with by Jesus on the cross.

 

[HTacianas]

The context is before and after Christ dying on the cross. Paul is talking to a large group of Jewish and gentile Christian and needed to show that they are now being treated equally.

The context is the justification for Christians. He says in the very next verse:

Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

He justifies "him which believeth in Jesus". That is what Christianity has taught from the beginning. A person believes in Jesus and is baptized for forgiveness of their previous sins. For it to mean what you've said is to say that no one prior to the crucifixion would ever be held accountable for their sins.

 

[d taylor]

Jesus was forgiving peoples sin before he went to the cross in mat 9 because h3 had the authority to.

The fellow who pointed this out said Jesus forgave that persons personal sin, but later it would be the sin of Adam that had to still be dealt with for Jesus to go on the cross and be resurrected.

Was He atoning the cripple on his mat (covering over his sin)? And later the cripple would have to be justified? Im not exactly sure

Pretty interesting, anybody want to expand on the difference of Jesus forgiving before and after the cross?

It is really simple, Jesus took away the sin of the world on the cross.

So now, God only requires for a person to have God's free gift of Eternal Life is belief. That Jesus was who He said He was, and that is The promised Messiah from the prophecies of The Tanakh if you believe this then trust in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life.

 

[Br4nd0n]

Note that I do not hold to the Western ideas about original sin. But Jesus forgave people's sins on earth because he had the authority to forgive sins. And when he did, all of the person's previous sins were forgiven. However you want to put that, it remains the same. All of their previous sins were forgiven. After the crucifixion we are offered forgiveness of previous sins through baptism. Water baptism serves the same purpose as being in the presence of Christ just as the thief on the cross.

Really interesting that ive heard the same example of the theif on the cross used as proof that baptism wasnt required for salvation. Perspective is very powerful it seems. Thank you for your thoughts !

 

[Br4nd0n]

Paul talks about those before the crucifixion but you have to really study what he said:

God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished... (Rom. 3:25, NIV)

This verse does provide a lot of information about how sins prior to Christ going to the cross were handled.

First off: Paul is giving the extreme contrast between the way sins where handle prior to the cross and after the cross, so if they were actually handled the same way “by the cross” there would be no contrast, just a time factor, but Paul said (forgiven) sins prior to the cross where left “unpunished”, but that also means the forgiven “sinner” after the cross were punished.

From Romans 3: 25 Paul tells us: God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. …

Another way of saying this would be “God offers the ransom payment (Christ Crucified and the blood that flowed from Him) to those that have the faith to receive that ransom. A lack of faith results in the refusal of the ransom payment (Christ crucified).

God is not the undeserving kidnapper nor is satan, but the unbeliever himself is holding back the child of God from the Father, that child that is within every one of us.

Paul goes on to explain:

Ro. 3: 25 …He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

I do not like the word “unpunished” but would use “undisciplined” (you discipline your children and do not punish your children).

So prior to the cross repentant forgiven people (saved individuals) could not be fairly and justly disciplined for their rebellious disobedience, but after the cross if we repent (come to our senses and turn to God) we can be fairly and justly disciplined and yet survive.

If you think about the crucifixion, you would realize, at the time Christ was on the cross, God in heaven out of empathy/Love for Christ would be experience an even greater pain than Christ. We as our Love grows and our realization of what we personally caused Christ to go through will feel a death blow to our hearts (Acts 2:37). We will experience the greatest pain we could experience and still live, which is the way God is disciplining us today and for all the right reasons because Loving discipline correctly accepted results in a wondrous relationship with our parent. (We can now comfortably feel justified before God.)

God and Christ would have personally preferred Christ’s blood to remain flowing through his veins, but it is I, who needs that blood outside of Christ to flowing over me and in me cleansing my heart. I need to feel that blood and know it is cleansing me.

I feel like you poured your heart out in this reply, i appreciate that. Thank you !

 

[Br4nd0n]

I hate when i see threads that give the impression that the OP knows a lot better than God does. EX. "Well why didnt God just do it this way!?" "it wouldve been way better if God (fill in the blank)"

So i hope im not giving off that impression here. LOL

I would understand king David being saved by "believing loyalty" to Yahweh, if we are going to talk about before the cross.

And it just seemed odd how Jesus was forgiving before the cross in His lifetime.

Thanks every one

 

[bling]

The context is the justification for Christians. He says in the very next verse:

Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

He justifies "him which believeth in Jesus". That is what Christianity has taught from the beginning. A person believes in Jesus and is baptized for forgiveness of their previous sins. For it to mean what you've said is to say that no one prior to the crucifixion would ever be held accountable for their sins.

This is the first time; I have been presented with this interpretation of before and after being baptized.

Why I and others interpret the before being before Christ’s crucifixion and after:

1. The whole theme of Romans is the unification of Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians, with the Jews feeling they are more righteous than the Gentiles, mainly because they had the Law.

2. “Ro. 3: 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify…. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,” This is the context of Ro. 3:25.

3. “Ro. 3: 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.” The all being both Jews and gentiles.

4. “Ro. 3: 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.” The present time would mean after the cross and not after baptism.

5. After the Ro. 3:25 we have Paul picking right back up with: “27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.” The contrast being discussed is between the Law and after the Law with what they now have with Christianity.” The Jews under the Law still had forgiveness but from Ro. 3:25 we see it did not have fair just disciplining (translated “punishment”) needed, which the cross provides Christians.

 

[bling]

I feel like you poured your heart out in this reply, i appreciate that. Thank you !

it is the single best verse for understanding atonement.

 

[HTacianas]

This is the first time; I have been presented with this interpretation of before and after being baptized.

Why I and others interpret the before being before Christ’s crucifixion and after:

1. The whole theme of Romans is the unification of Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians, with the Jews feeling they are more righteous than the Gentiles, mainly because they had the Law.

2. “Ro. 3: 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify…. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,” This is the context of Ro. 3:25.

3. “Ro. 3: 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.” The all being both Jews and gentiles.

4. “Ro. 3: 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.” The present time would mean after the cross and not after baptism.

5. After the Ro. 3:25 we have Paul picking right back up with: “27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.” The contrast being discussed is between the Law and after the Law with what they now have with Christianity.” The Jews under the Law still had forgiveness but from Ro. 3:25 we see it did not have fair just disciplining (translated “punishment”) needed, which the cross provides Christians.

"The present time" is now. And a person is justified -be they Jew or gentile- through baptism. At the present time Christians are not required to perform "the works of the law", meaning all those things Jews were required to perform including sacrifices, ritual washings, etc. The "sins that are past" are those sins committed prior to, and forgiven through, baptism. Those are the same sins the writer of 2 Peter refers to:

2Pe 1:9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

They have been cleansed through baptism of their "old sins". The same as the "sins that were previously committed" of Romans 3.

 

[Clare73]

Jesus was forgiving peoples sin before he went to the cross in mat 9 because h3 had the authority to.
The fellow who pointed this out said Jesus forgave that persons personal sin, but later it would be the sin of Adam that had to still be dealt with for Jesus to go on the cross and be resurrected.

Was He atoning the cripple on his mat (covering over his sin)? And later the cripple would have to be justified? Im not exactly sure.

Pretty interesting, anybody want to expand on the difference of Jesus forgiving before and after the cross?

Jesus lived, preached and died under the Old Covenant.

The sin of God's people was passed over in the OT, in anticipation of Jesus' atonement for them
(Romans 3:25).

 

[Br4nd0n]

Jesus lived, preached and died under the Old Covenant.

The sin of God's people was passed over in the OT, in anticipation of Jesus' atonement for them
(Romans 3:25).

You always bring something of value to the converstion clare

Its beautiful to think about the perfect life lived by the creator, to simply show us how its done.

 

[bling]

"The present time" is now. And a person is justified -be they Jew or gentile- through baptism. At the present time Christians are not required to perform "the works of the law", meaning all those things Jews were required to perform including sacrifices, ritual washings, etc. The "sins that are past" are those sins committed prior to, and forgiven through, baptism. Those are the same sins the writer of 2 Peter refers to:

2Pe 1:9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

They have been cleansed through baptism of their "old sins". The same as the "sins that were previously committed" of Romans 3.

Look at Ro. 3:25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished... (Rom. 3:25, NIV)

If before hand is talking about sins before baptism, how are they left unpunished and the sins after baptism are punished? (it is a contrast, not just different timing).

I use the NIV all though I do not like any translation, NIV does what I consider to be the best translation of the Greek word πάρεσις (paresis) which most just translate with “past over”, since the NIV translates it “left the sins committed beforehand unpunished”. The Greek word Πάρεσις is only found here in the Greek New Testament and not used at all in the Greek Old Testament, so it is difficult to translate, but really not that hard, since secular koine Greek manuscripts can be found using πάρεσις. It is used to describe when a lender, on rare occasions, does not put a debtor in prison to try and get some of his money back from friends and relatives of the debtor, before releasing him. So, in the context of Ro. 3:25 the forgiven sinners prior to the cross were not disciplined/punished for their sins but were just forgiven and let go. Since Paul is making his argument showing a huge contrast between Jews before and after the cross, those after the cross would have to go through some “punishment” or better expressed as some disciplining to be a contrast. The Jews and the gentiles have the same disciplining experience.

The Jews before the cross could be forgiven but they could not experience being crucified with Christ since they did not know this even happened. Being crucified with Christ is our punishment/discipline.

 

[HTacianas]

Look at Ro. 3:25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished... (Rom. 3:25, NIV)

If before hand is talking about sins before baptism, how are they left unpunished and the sins after baptism are punished? (it is a contrast, not just different timing).

I use the NIV all though I do not like any translation, NIV does what I consider to be the best translation of the Greek word πάρεσις (paresis) which most just translate with “past over”, since the NIV translates it “left the sins committed beforehand unpunished”. The Greek word Πάρεσις is only found here in the Greek New Testament and not used at all in the Greek Old Testament, so it is difficult to translate, but really not that hard, since secular koine Greek manuscripts can be found using πάρεσις. It is used to describe when a lender, on rare occasions, does not put a debtor in prison to try and get some of his money back from friends and relatives of the debtor, before releasing him. So, in the context of Ro. 3:25 the forgiven sinners prior to the cross were not disciplined/punished for their sins but were just forgiven and let go. Since Paul is making his argument showing a huge contrast between Jews before and after the cross, those after the cross would have to go through some “punishment” or better expressed as some disciplining to be a contrast. The Jews and the gentiles have the same disciplining experience.

The Jews before the cross could be forgiven but they could not experience being crucified with Christ since they did not know this even happened. Being crucified with Christ is our punishment/discipline.

Ultimately the punishment for sin after baptism is condemnation. People fall away into sin and die there, then end up with the same punishment as anyone else. In the early Church even a single mortal sin was cause for excommunication. As Paul put it, "put away from yourselves the evil person", see 1 Cor 5:13. The new testament is extremely harsh regarding willful sins committed after baptism.

 

[bling]

Ultimately the punishment for sin after baptism is condemnation. People fall away into sin and die there, then end up with the same punishment as anyone else. In the early Church even a single mortal sin was cause for excommunication. As Paul put it, "put away from yourselves the evil person", see 1 Cor 5:13. The new testament is extremely harsh regarding willful sins committed after baptism.

Sorry I lost track of this thread.

Everything done to the baptized willful sinner was to help the willful sinner humble himself and accept God’s forgiveness as pure undeserved charity and provide “signs” of repentance. It is never “harsh” to provide Loving fair/just discipline to a child.