What do you think about prayers?

[awitch]

Just curious ...

Do you have anything bad to say about the god of Christian Universalism?Just curious ...

Do you have anything bad to say about the god of Christian Deism?

To avoid any ambiguity, I'd ask you to please define those first.

 

[AV1611VET]

To avoid any ambiguity, I'd ask you to please define those first.

That figures.

 

[awitch]

That figures.

There is a bit of a spectrum on beliefs covered by these two paradigms but I'll comment generally unless you want to get into specifics.

For Universalism, I'm not sure this concept is consistent with what the Bible says prima facie. I would say that if it true, it's still problematic that anyone would have to experience any amount of torture, even if not eternal, especially for "crimes" such as non-belief. God should be above cruel and unusual punishment.

For Christian Deism, I'm working under the idea that the moral teachings are good but Jesus wasn't divine which is clearly not consistent with the Bible. I'm unclear if the moral teachings refer to just what Jesus said, or everything in the Bible. I would agree that moral teachings are not dependent on divinity; it's not like when someone murdered another person, the victim's family stood around the body wondering what to think until Moses came down from a mountain with "Thou Shalt Not Kill" etched on a rock at which point they all smacked their heads with sudden clarity.

On the other hand, there's plenty of "moral" teachings in the Bible that I don't think are moral at all. For example, if we're limiting it to consenting adults, then there's nothing wrong with LGBTQ people. Personally, I find slavery to be a disgusting institution, but the Bible condones it by providing guidelines on treating slaves (as opposed to simply having a commandant such as "Thou Shalt Not Have Slaves").

 

[Zoness]

A possible solution that allows for humans to have freewill and for God to answer our prayers is for nothing in this life to matter. Let's say I pray for success and my success will cause somebody else to have failure. God can answer my prayer if nothing in this life actually matters. Maybe we don't see what truly matters.

Here is a quote I like from the Bhagavad Gita:

Chapter 2 – Bhagavad Gita, The Song of God – Swami Mukundananda

I suppose on reflection that nihilism or solipsism is compatible with Christianity, at least in a vague sense.

I am not personally big on prayer, my perception of the gods tends to lean on pantheism moreso than the personality ascribed in interventionist theism. I will add prayers during ritual orders or shrine offerings but I don't really ask for prayers of supplication or things to that effect, I have the burden of bringing about my own reality where possible.

Prayers or devotional acts come in many forms for me anyways, I don't necessarily have to speak words but I can choose to devote actions or works of art and craft to the gods, plus of course incense and food offerings or libations.

That said, for reasons of basically tradition at this point I will be reciting my own pre-written prayers combined with some prayers from a local Wiccan group for Samhain. That's always been the time I felt the most connected to my religion and its the time where I express something resembling prayerfulness.

 

[dlamberth]

Just curious ...
Do you have anything bad to say about the god of Christian Universalism?Just curious ...

Do you have anything bad to say about the god of Christian Deism?

These are interesting questions. The first one (Christian Universalism) makes no sense to me unless God is expanded beyond the Christian image of God into more of a Panentheist expression. Perhaps the closest I'm able to come to it is if Creation itself is experienced as the original body of Christ which bubbled up in the Heart of Humanity and is expressed in various ways through the religions of the world.

I have no comment on Christian Deism.

 

[AV1611VET]

These are interesting questions.

Witch is a hard bird to understand.

He rails against Hell.

But when I bring up two denominations, one that clearly says we all go to Heaven, regardless if we want to or not, he won't tell me if that god is bad or not.

Go figure.

Some people just like to rail on the God of the Bible -- and pagans are no exception.

 

[Dansiph]

Yes, the idea is that you should believe in god because you're chances are higher of escaping hell.



Why would anyone honor a god they didn't like?



Correct.
Especially if my biggest crime is not sucking up to him.
But personally, I think any description of an afterlife is wishful thinking.



It depends on the sum of your experiences and how you interpret the Bible.



I agree that it is.
Which is why I say that hedging your bets would not be satisfactory to any gods.

What I mean is Pascal's Wager isn't God's idea. He never said believe in me because it's the safer bet.

Why would you honour a God you don't like? Because He's God. The primary issue is his existence, not whether or not you approve of him.

It's not sucking up to God. I never think when I wake up "I better suck up to God today for extra points". I need God. We all do. The afterlife as a wishful thought is one of the weirdest ideas I hear from non-Christians. I actually sometimes comtemplate that it'd be much better to just die and cease to exist. I'm not afraid of death if it's the end. That's not scary at all. I believe there's an afterlife though and I try to act accordingly.

Most Christians - if not all - believe we don't deserve God's love. So it's not just my interpretation. It's just something I've realised even more recently. I started to think that we REALLY don't deserve God's grace.

What it boils down to for me is your opinion of the God of the Bible doesn't mean he isn't the true God. Also you keep saying Pascal's Wager is a terrible idea but for me it's just that you've made your bet. I don't think it's the wise choice.

 

[dlamberth]

Witch is a hard bird to understand.

He rails against Hell.

But when I bring up two denominations, one that clearly says we all go to Heaven, regardless if we want to or not, he won't tell me if that god is bad or not.

Go figure.

Some people just like to rail on the God of the Bible -- and pagans are no exception.

 

[awitch]

What I mean is Pascal's Wager isn't God's idea. He never said believe in me because it's the safer bet.

Yes, I know. Blaise Pascal came up with the argument in the 17th century.

Why would you honour a God you don't like? Because He's God. The primary issue is his existence, not whether or not you approve of him.

There is no empirical proof for the existence of any god. Anecdotal evidence is unconvincing. I have personal experience which is sufficient for me to hold my beliefs, but they mean nothing to any one else. And other peoples' personal experiences can't hold the same significance to me. So without real evidence, I have zero motivation to believe in your god, the same way you have zero motivation to believe there are unicorns on Mars. I am not moved by passive aggressive threats of hell, nor promises of endless reward in heaven.

All I can do is look at the arguments provided by believers and examine the implications if they were true to see how consistent they are with reality. I can also use those implications to derive god's qualities and decide if it is worth taking seriously.

Most Christians - if not all - believe we don't deserve God's love.

A lot of them would be right, in my opinion.

What it boils down to for me is your opinion of the God of the Bible doesn't mean he isn't the true God. Also you keep saying Pascal's Wager is a terrible idea but for me it's just that you've made your bet. I don't think it's the wise choice.

In my system, there is no heaven or hell. I subscribe to my deities out of sincere desire. No duress, no bribery. I'm free to walk away any time and not only do I keep the freedom to learn about other religions and interact with their followers, I can freely participate in their ceremonies (as I have many times). Such are the gods who do not invoke fear for loyalty. They are as real to me as yours is to you, but I approve of them

 

[awitch]

Witch is a hard bird to understand.

I think that's a lovely compliment.

He rails against Hell.

And heaven.

But when I bring up two denominations, one that clearly says we all go to Heaven, regardless if we want to or not, he won't tell me if that god is bad or not.

I've talked about this with other people in other threads, but it comes down to this...
In a system where the fate of your eternal sou hinges on accepting beliefs that cannot be empirically substantiated because God chooses so, then an opt-in system is a poor design. It should be an opt-out system instead otherwise it's bribery or threat.

Some people just like to rail on the God of the Bible -- and pagans are no exception.

Turnabout is fair play.

 

[Dansiph]

Yes, I know. Blaise Pascal came up with the argument in the 17th century.



There is no empirical proof for the existence of any god. Anecdotal evidence is unconvincing. I have personal experience which is sufficient for me to hold my beliefs, but they mean nothing to any one else. And other peoples' personal experiences can't hold the same significance to me. So without real evidence, I have zero motivation to believe in your god, the same way you have zero motivation to believe there are unicorns on Mars. I am not moved by passive aggressive threats of hell, nor promises of endless reward in heaven.

All I can do is look at the arguments provided by believers and examine the implications if they were true to see how consistent they are with reality. I can also use those implications to derive god's qualities and decide if it is worth taking seriously.



A lot of them would be right, in my opinion.



In my system, there is no heaven or hell. I subscribe to my deities out of sincere desire. No duress, no bribery. I'm free to walk away any time and not only do I keep the freedom to learn about other religions and interact with their followers, I can freely participate in their ceremonies (as I have many times). Such are the gods who do not invoke fear for loyalty. They are as real to me as yours is to you, but I approve of them

I don't think you understand this half as well as you think you do. I hope you realise that you've made your bet. Even though I don't think Pascal's Wager is the primary reason to believe anyway. You simply can't accept that God actually loves us.

 

[awitch]

I don't think you understand this half as well as you think you do. I hope you realise that you've made your bet. Even though I don't think Pascal's Wager is the primary reason to believe anyway. You simply can't accept that God actually loves us.

So let me clarify: if your god loves you, then I'm happy for you.
But your god called for my death and the death of my closest friends and family followed by an eternal torment in hell. Something his followers seem to delight in reminding me. Let's not pretend he loves me.

I walk with other gods in confidence and without regrets. Rest assured, you have nothing to fear if I'm wrong or right.

 

[Zoness]

Witch is a hard bird to understand.

He rails against Hell.

But when I bring up two denominations, one that clearly says we all go to Heaven, regardless if we want to or not, he won't tell me if that god is bad or not.

Go figure.

Some people just like to rail on the God of the Bible -- and pagans are no exception.

To be fair, this isn't exactly a valid rhetorical trick. You and most other Christians would agree Christian universalism nor Christian Deism are orthodox or valid Christian stances. Go into any church and espouse this position and you'll be considered firmly outside of Christianity.

That said you're right about me at least, I do rail against Yahweh or El Elyon, usually.

 

[Dansiph]

So let me clarify: if your god loves you, then I'm happy for you.
But your god called for my death and the death of my closest friends and family followed by an eternal torment in hell. Something his followers seem to delight in reminding me. Let's not pretend he loves me.

I walk with other gods in confidence and without regrets. Rest assured, you have nothing to fear if I'm wrong or right.

That's not a good clarification. Also my beliefs have changed recently. Until a few months ago I was an Independent Baptist. I was for about two and a half years. There was no hope for my dead relatives and I struggled with that every single day. That didn't stop me honouring God. Nor does it mean God doesn't love them or us. Although there's a bit of contention, the major Catholic belief is that it is possible to go to heaven without being a Christian although this is still through Christ. An example article: How Can Atheists Go To Heaven?

I thank God for the hope he has given me. This isn't because it's pleasant to the mind. First came what I perceive as truth, then came relief and gratitude.

 

[AV1611VET]

In a system where the fate of your eternal soul hinges on accepting beliefs that cannot be empirically substantiated because God chooses so, then an opt-in system is a poor design.

That "system" was put in place before God ever created the earth.

Psalm 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

This is Jesus talking, and He is volunteering to be the Saviour of mankind.

That's why the Bible says He was "slain from the foundation of the world."

So there is a LOT MORE to this system than meets the eye.

It culminated, of course, with Jesus' resurrection from the grave, which WAS empirically substantiated by those who were there -- not by some smirkers 2000 years later demanding to be able to look back in time via evidence scattered about here and there.

This point is worth repeating:

If everyone thought like you do (i.e., academically), Jesus would have to come back generation after generation after generation to satisfy their empirical curiosity.

When anyone puts Jesus' down, they are putting down a whole generation of people who were actually there and witnessed things no classroom on earth can recreate.

Science is myopic.

And any child should be able to look a scientist right in his eyes and tell him he's wrong.

 

[AV1611VET]

But your god called for my death and the death of my closest friends and family followed by an eternal torment in hell.

Did He give a way of escape?

 

[AV1611VET]

To be fair, this isn't exactly a valid rhetorical trick. You and most other Christians would agree Christian universalism nor Christian Deism are orthodox or valid Christian stances. Go into any church and espouse this position and you'll be considered firmly outside of Christianity.

No argument there.

That said you're right about me at least, I do rail against Yahweh ...

Who is Yahweh?

 

[Zoness]

No argument there.Who is Yahweh?

A complicated figure, to say the least, but we can start with what we know about him and his patronage of the Hebrew people: Yahweh - Wikipedia

 

[Dansiph]

So let me clarify: if your god loves you, then I'm happy for you.
But your god called for my death and the death of my closest friends and family followed by an eternal torment in hell. Something his followers seem to delight in reminding me. Let's not pretend he loves me.

I walk with other gods in confidence and without regrets. Rest assured, you have nothing to fear if I'm wrong or right.

 

[AV1611VET]

A complicated figure, to say the least, but we can start with what we know about him and his patronage of the Hebrew people: Yahweh - Wikipedia

From your link:

Yahweh was the national god of the kingdoms of Israel (Samaria) and Judah, with origins reaching at least to the early Iron Age and apparently to the Late Bronze Age.

I thought Baal was their national god, until God [JEHOVAH] showed up and twisted him into a pretzel, along with 450 of his prophets?