What do you think about Homeschool?

thehehe

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I red a lot about it recently. This is not very well-known in Europe, so I wanted to know a bit more about that. It seems quite dangerous to me: how a child is supposed to integrate into his own society if he doesn't even attend a school with very different people? To me this isn't good for a child to grow up in a cocoon. Moreover we learn sociability in our first years. And every child needs friendship and to be confronted to someone else's eyes.

So basically I would like to learn the advantages of such a schooling and the reasons why it is so popular in America!
 

Cimorene

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I go to an online school so I do home school, but it's completely different from homeschooling where your parents are your teachers. Our teachers also teach at college so they definitely know their stuff. I love my school because you get to make friends with people from all over the world. I found out about this forum through my friend who lives in California a thousand miles from me! We all meet up on campus in August for a few weeks before the school year starts, so we get to spend time together. We visit our friends. We have prom and a lot of other normal things a school has, but still I miss seeing friends at lunch at every day and playing on the school sports team. I do still play lacrosse.

I can't imagine homeschooling with my parents teaching me. They're both very smart but obviously they don't have advanced degrees in each subject I take. I like that we have our own lives. I think it's great to spend time with your parents but it's not healthy to be with them all day, every day and to learn everything from them. It's good to have the influence of great teachers, and to be in a class where you're learning from the other kids in it. With online school we all meet up in real time, so we still have class discussions. It definitely has exposed me to a huge range of viewpoints because we have students from Japan, America, Europe, all in one class sometimes. I think it is the opposite of homeschooling where your parents or their friends are your teachers. That would be growing up in a cocoon. I don't think it would prepare you as well for the real world.
 
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Butterfly99

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I wrote a post about this a while ago so I just found it and am pasting it here. :p

I home schooled for 2nd through 8th grades. It was mainly a good experience but I like being in school much better. It wasn't for religious reasons even though my mom is a minister. Me, my brother, and my cousins are all really close in age. One of my cousins has cystic fibrosis and school was just too tough for her. My aunt used to be a school principal. She decided to quit to homeschool my cousin. We homeschooled so she wouldn't be alone. We went online schools so we still had a real transcript every year but she still taught us. We also were in a coop that would hire teachers for things like Spanish and coding. Three of us really wanted to go to a magnet school for science & technology so my parents & aunt and uncle hired some grad students to tutor us to get us ready. You have to take some hard tests to get in. My uncle is a professor so he just had his buddy make some recommendations. I think homeschooling is more regulated in my state than in others. Idk. I saw another thread where they were talking about religious parents not teaching their kids because they believe the world is gonna end. Crazy. So the question in the thread was if the state should make the kids learn. I say yes. We did testing every year and stuff. We did a lot of trips to museums and other stuff. All of us but my cousin who has Cf are SUPER involved in sports so we still had plenty of friends from that.

I'll add to it that I see some drawbacks & advantages.

The advantages -
I am best friends w my cousins & my brother. They were my family & the kids I went to school with every day & my friends. I cherish that time w my cousin more than anything else in this whole world.

We could take vacations during the school year. We had a lot of freedom with our schedules.

We could go classes in our pajamas if we wanted, lol. It was never stressful in the mornings trying to get ready for school or dealing w traffic.

We could tailor our education more. All along the plan was that we'd go to hs. Three of us wanted to go to the magnet school. It's one of the hardest schools to get into the whole country. For real. The tests you take in the 8th grade to get in are harder than ones lots of college students take! You have to really know your stuff. The science, math & tech classes we had that the grad students taught us helped. Most other kids at the school went to public middle schools that prepared them really well, too tho.

The drawbacks
Not socializing with other kids on a daily basis in the same way you do at school!!! We played community sports, were real active with youth ministry, were in a homeschool group for field trips & stuff. I'll tell you straight up, nothing replaces what school can give you. I hadn't realized how much I'd missed out till I started going to school. I LOVE going to school. LOVE it.
My brother and my cousins have loved it too. School is about so much more than just the textbook learning.

My family did a really great job with giving us a very strong education but there's a lot of parents who really don't have the same abilities. Some lack the desire & work ethic too. I'm still friends w a lot of the kids from the homeschool association. One of my friends spends hours a day doing her makeup even tho she doesn't really go anywhere. It's just cause she's that bored. She's not challenged at all. Other friends are really behind socially. Like they've been living in this cocoon and have no legit idea what the rest of the world is like. Some of them have never in their lives had a teacher who wasn't their parent or somebody from their church. Never once have they had anybody teach them that didn't see things pretty much exactly the same. I think that's an enormous disservice. This world is filled w people who see things differently. Just knowing that they're there or meeting them on the street or whatever isn't at all the same as being in a class w them or being taught by them.

There's also kids who are in the 11th, 12th grades & way behind. One of my friends who still homeschools got a 18 on the ACT! (Super low score) Their parents can't teach them calculus, coding, physics, Spanish. I think homeschooling can work out for some families for little kids but you need to be in school past the 8th grade for sure.

I don't have that many friends who have fundamentalist parents but I've learned more about some of them on here & it's just flat out scary. I think homeschooled kids are more likely to be abused cause there aren't teachers they can talk to or who will notice problems.
 
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Butterfly99

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Cimorene, what made you decide to go to school online? What's it like? Do you y'all have clubs & stuff like that? Do the kids who go to Stanford OHS have a big advantage for getting into Stanford for college? Do you want to go there?

Lol, that was a lot of questions. :D
 
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The Portuguese Baptist

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I red a lot about it recently. This is not very well-known in Europe, so I wanted to know a bit more about that. It seems quite dangerous to me: how a child is supposed to integrate into his own society if he doesn't even attend a school with very different people? To me this isn't good for a child to grow up in a cocoon. Moreover we learn sociability in our first years. And every child needs friendship and to be confronted to someone else's eyes.

So basically I would like to learn the advantages of such a schooling and the reasons why it is so popular in America!

I am not an American, but it seems that America and Europe are actually very, very different in many, many aspects. (And, in all of them, Europe is still the best! :) )

It seems that America has a quite great influence of Evangelical Christian right-wing Conservatives — like me! They call them ‘Republicans’, with the opposite ones being called ‘Democrats’. Now, with such a great influence, especially in the so-called ‘Bible Belt’ (the region in the South in which Evangelicals are much more common than anywhere else, including, very famously, Texas), it is natural that many parents will want to educate their kids in as biblical and Christian an environment as possible, so, since there is a law which allows them to teach their kids at home, they use it.

My opinion? I personally disagree with it, although I recognise its advantages. Even though the world is sinful, preventing contact with it in such a radical manner like preventing kids from going to school sounds just a bit too ridiculous to me. I am glad that I was always taught in public school. Public school also has the advantage of facilitating the making of friends, and the adaptation to the troubles of the world, together with the many other good values that it encourages: class attendance, punctuality, personal effort, striving to get better... These values may be partially lost in an isolated world of homeschooling, which is why I disagree with it.

Evidently, it has its own advantages: it makes it more difficult for the Christian youth to be taken away by the world's ideas and living. However, it is my conviction that a good Christian education at home is absolutely crucial and that, if that is done, then there is no problem with kids facing the world's temptation, because they will be prepared. The kids must be told: ‘You cannot pronounce those ugly words you hear in school; you cannot have a non-Christian boyfriend/girlfriend; you cannot have sex before marriage, even with a condom; you must reject Evolution; you must reject homosexuality... — even if they teach you otherwise in school.’ With such home education, I think that there is no problem with going to regular school, and I think that I am living proof of this truth. :)
 
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Cimorene

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Cimorene, what made you decide to go to school online?

There were a few factors that went into the decision, but the main one was that my sister graduated from Stanford OHS in 2013. She had a very positive experience there. The biggest reason she switched to online school was that she needed more of a challenge than what was available at local schools. Even at the elite prep schools the highest level of math offered is usually AP Calculus BC. Some of them will only allow seniors to take it. The class I'm taking with Ella's brother is two years higher than that, and we're in grade 10. There are a few magnet STEM schools in Seattle (where my family used to live), but they were too far away from us. Besides they didn't have the best reputation. At Stanford OHS you can start taking university level classes whenever you're ready for them. Way more classes are available to us than at most brick & mortar schools. Our OHS belongs to a consortium of online schools, so in addition to the classes taught by our teachers we can take any of them. We can also audit Stanford classes, which is really cool. Socially my sister was way happier at Stanford OHS. She has Asperger's and felt like the kids and teachers were more understanding of that than at her other schools. I don't have Asperger's but still I saw how much happier she grew, and that made me more interested. I liked all the independence she had with her schedule, and got to make friends from all over the world. She also was able to graduate from high school early and start college. That's pretty common for the OHS.

The other thing is that both of my parents travel a lot for work. When I was in the 8th grade my mom got offered a job with a company that has its HQ in Germany. She's based in Vancouver but travels there frequently. She could take the job with us being at the OHS because we can travel with her. It's actually how Ella and I became good friends. We'd met at the summer program but we really became close when we were both in Europe the fall of 2014. We ran all around Austria and Germany together while most other kids were sitting in classrooms. Our classroom is wherever we want it to be as long as have our computers and a strong Wifi signal, lol.

What's it like?

It's sort of a mix between a normal high school class & a college class. We have special software on our computers that mimics a regular classroom. There are buttons so you can raise your hand to ask questions. When the teacher selects you, you just turn on your camera and mic so everyone can see and hear you. There's a chat bar on the side of the screen where you can ask questions and talk with others in the class. There's a whiteboard where you can draw and post things.
The structure is more like a college because we don't meet at the same time everyday. Instead we meet a couple of times a week for longer classes, like what they do in college.

Do you y'all have clubs & stuff like that?

We have a lot of clubs. https://ohs.stanford.edu/student-life/clubs

We spend two weeks on campus in August. We do a lot of lab work and things like that, but it's also when everybody becomes friends. We join clubs then and then keep them up online. A lot of kids live near one another, so we'll get together for fun and for community service projects, club stuff, and the like. We go to a lot of hockey games together, lol. Canadians. There are also meetups that people travel to. My parents have hosted them, and Ella's have as well. I went to the ones they had at their lake house and in LA, and I plan to go to the next one. They just hosted a meetup for the Rose Bowl but I couldn't go to that since we were on vacation. There are the usual events on campus that we get together for too, like homecoming, Prom, graduation. We have cultural excursion trips where we take classes while traveling abroad together.

It's not the same as being at a normal high school but you definitely do get to have a social life through the school.

Do the kids who go to Stanford OHS have a big advantage for getting into Stanford for college?

Yes and no. The school makes it really clear before you even apply that you won't be a shoo-in for Stanford. The admissions offices are totally separate, and they don't influence one another. Some people actually think it's harder to get in as a Stanford OHS applicant because the college is trying so hard to not show favoritism to us. They want to keep things fair. Stanford is ridiculously hard to get into. I mean completely insane. More than 42,000 kids applied last year, and 40,000 of them got rejected. No joke. It's probably the hardest college in the world to get into. You need SO much more than perfect grades and scores. You have to be extraordinary in some way. Like with Ella she's known as the "Renaissance Girl" because she's sensational in the arts and academics. She's on fleek in dance, art, poetry, school. She's been a professional dancer for years. She won one of the most prestigious scholarships in the country for her art. Now her music career is taking off. She's won awards for science and writing too, and has gotten published. Almost every kid at Stanford is like that. They've all done something that 99% of high schoolers haven't. They have Olympic athletes and kids who've started up companies.

My sister didn't get into Stanford even though she did really well at Stanford OHS. She got into all the other colleges she applied to. She goes to the University of Chicago and is very happy there.

There are definitely some advantages to Stanford OHS for college admission. Like I wrote above we have more advanced classes than what's at most other schools. Probably like 90% of the kids applying to Stanford have taken the same set of AP classes and gotten A's in them, so taking the more advanced classes definitely helps you to stand out. It helps too that Stanford knows how challenging Stanford OHS is.

Do you want to go there?

I'd love to go to Stanford, but there are other colleges I also love. I really love the U of Chicago. I miss my grandparents and Seattle a ton, and would be happy at UW. It's not as prestigious or high-ranked, but it's not as insanely difficult to get into either. I won't be a basket case senior year because I'll know I've got at least one college where I'd be happy in the bag.

Lol, that was a lot of questions. :D

Yeah, it was a small post but a lot of questions were in it. I had to wait until I had the time to reply and answer everything. I enjoyed it. :)
 
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Butterfly99

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For real that was awesome of you to answer all my questions so thoroughly Cimorene. Yeah I would really love to go to Stanford too, but that's almost like wanting to win the lottery. You're right that all the ppl who get in there have something extraordinary going for them. Ella is sensational for sure.
 
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grandvizier1006

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The thing about homeschooling is that it can go great or horribly wrong for the child involved. It depends on how much freedom the child gets in terms of what subjects they want to do, the parents' motivations, and what the interests of the child are. How much social interaction they get is also important. Another thing is if the parents are qualified to teach--mine definitely were not, so they didn't homeschool me, although they claim to regret that. But me being homeschooled probably would not have been helpful.

I know plenty of homeschoolers, and they are generally good people. They've had time to hone their talents and develop a great relationship with God. Sure, they might be lacking in knowledge of Soongebob, but they make up for it :D they are also a bit less worldly, in a good way. I mean to say that they won't get swept up in dumb fads or be concerned about stuff like celebrities or selfies or safe spaces.

Also, because they are taught by their families, they tend to have a close bond to them since they may have less friends aside from siblings and anyone else in their co-op. Social interaction, however, develops naturally, (unless you are on the autism spectrum), so they aren't going to be socially inept.

They do, however, tend to be a bit conservative. The ones I've met are very nice and probably would not consider a liberal as their enemy, but they wouldn't agree with them. The thing is, their parents must have taught them those values without hammering them in like "fundamentalists" (conservative does not equal fundamentalist), so they never ended up rejecting like some liberals assume most young people do. I'm fairly conservative but I don't agree with everything they believe. Still, I can at least be sure that they are Christians and generally mean what they say because I've found some of them to be open and honest.

Oddly enough, in the time I got to know what homeschoolers were really like, I ended up acting more like a stereotypical one than they could be, despite not being homeschooled. One of them even watched and loved a ton of anime, which is probably quite rare among homeschoolers. So I' fine with its existence, even though I used to be concerned about kids growing up too sheltered. That's a serious possibility, but it depends on the parents. And regulations can help such things as long as they don't interfere with religious education (standard Christian doctrine, not Bill Gothard stuff).

I will add, btw, that there is a growing number of homeschoolers that are in it because of behavioral or mental issues that make going to a regular school hard for them. So a few parents do it solely for secular reasons. The reason it's illegal in Europe is because being raised within a set of religious beliefs is considered potentially dangerous or something. That does make it so that American homeschoolers have a major social rift between themselves and most secular Europeans, but assuming that the homeschooler is friendly and the European is as tolerant of alternative lifestyles as they are supposed to be, then things would go well :)
 
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The Portuguese Baptist

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[…] The reason it's illegal in Europe is because being raised within a set of religious beliefs is considered potentially dangerous or something. […]

I'm not sure that's just it; I mean, we would not call it ‘potentially dangerous’, though it could be. However, we make school compulsory because it is important that kids learn in an environment controlled by the state, so that the state may verify that the teaching they receive is adequate. Furthermore, Europe is non-religious (whereas America is pseudo-Christian), which means that we give freedom to all religions, that all may freely exercise their rights; however, education is controlled in order to protect the interests of the state, the country and the population.
 
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thehehe

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I'm not sure that's just it; I mean, we would not call it ‘potentially dangerous’, though it could be. However, we make school compulsory because it is important that kids learn in an environment controlled by the state, so that the state may verify that the teaching they receive is adequate. Furthermore, Europe is non-religious (whereas America is pseudo-Christian), which means that we give freedom to all religions, that all may freely exercise their rights; however, education is controlled in order to protect the interests of the state, the country and the population.

Totally true, an another paradox from our European societies. Even if the religious freedom is in theory one their fundamental principles, one can't truly lives his faith without going against the principle of laicism -so basically a religious education , even not conservative, is considered against the Laicism. As a result the European youth doesn't know anymore her own identity, culture and history. A "good" education must be the one which leads to the single worldview without any religious culture, or even the knowledge of the ancient texts (the suppression of Latin, Ancient Greek, Hebrew at school). The government has always loved to build a new generation of clones.
 
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Cimorene

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I think the "potentially dangerous" education includes Holocaust denial, racial supremacy, and pseudoscience, which have thrived through homeschooling. Then there are also those who claim they're homeschooling their kids but are not actually teaching them anything. That obviously is not to say that every homeschooled child is being taught falsely, or not at all, but those are concerns that I know about. In Europe where homeschooling is illegal parents still have the right to teach their children religious beliefs as they please. Just after school. It's definitely in the best interest of individuals and society for kids to receive an education that is going to equip them to function well in society.

Since my school is online and accessible around the world, there are several kids who live in Europe. We've talked about this before. They are allowed to attend an OHS instead of a brick and mortar school. Their parents just submitted the forms to the local school boards for approval. It sounded like a simple process. They are in support of this oversight. Each kid should count and be accounted for, imo.
 
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grandvizier1006

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I think the "potentially dangerous" education includes Holocaust denial, racial supremacy, and pseudoscience, which have thrived through homeschooling. Then there are also those who claim they're homeschooling their kids but are not actually teaching them anything. That obviously is not to say that every homeschooled child is being taught falsely, or not at all, but those are concerns that I know about. In Europe where homeschooling is illegal parents still have the right to teach their children religious beliefs as they please. Just after school. It's definitely in the best interest of individuals and society for kids to receive an education that is going to equip them to function well in society.

Since my school is online and accessible around the world, there are several kids who live in Europe. We've talked about this before. They are allowed to attend an OHS instead of a brick and mortar school. Their parents just submitted the forms to the local school boards for approval. It sounded like a simple process. They are in support of this oversight. Each kid should count and be accounted for, imo.
I don't know of anyone taught Holocaust denial or racial supremacy. And while I don't agree with young earth creationism it's completely harmless, and that's the only "pseudoscience" I know of that they might learn--or not.

These aren't backwoods parents living in trailer parks brainwashing their children. A lot of states have regulations and require that whoever is involved has a teaching degree.

One advantage seems to be a lot less stress when dealing with typical high school relationship stuff. A much lower chance of giving in to peer pressure, stds, etc. when it's all practically impossible.
 
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Cimorene

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I don't know of anyone taught Holocaust denial or racial supremacy.

I don't know anyone from Iceland, but I know Icelanders exist. :p
Maybe my post looked like I was painting with broad strokes when that wasn't my intent. I was just brainstorming some of the potential dangers of homeschooling, but I tried to make it clear that of course not every homeschooling situation has those dangers. Sorry if it wasn't clear enough. I'm a newbie. :)

I was thinking about Holocaust denialism because we had discussed this old Louis Theroux documentary about an early 2000s pop music group called Prussian Blue. They were preteen twin sisters who had been taught the Holocaust was a myth, and they became famous from playing at all these white nationalist shows and festivals. They were homeschooled by their mom, who had also been homeschooled as a child. They didn't have teachers or anyone else who was influential to set them straight. Holocaust denialism is pretty uncommon, but I think one of the reasons (not the only reason) it has continued to persist at all is because of these closed-off groups that teach new generations all this junk. I honestly don't know this for sure, but I think that maybe one of the reasons Germany made homeschooling illegal could have been this fear that kids were being taught the Holocaust was a myth. I know there's way more to it than that, but I wonder if this could have been one of them. It's illegal to deny the Holocaust there, but people still do. They have tried very hard to quash it.

And while I don't agree with young earth creationism it's completely harmless, and that's the only "pseudoscience" I know of that they might learn--or not.

Pseudoscience includes climate change denial, medical quackery, more than just creationism. I definitely don't think creationism is completely harmless, but I definitely don't want to get into it here, lol. If you really are interested you could maybe ask Stanfordella. She went to my high school & she won this national history competition for a paper she wrote for her history of ignorance class about creationism. I do know for fact this time that it is one of the reasons why several European countries have banned homeschooling and made laws about it not being taught at schools.

These aren't backwoods parents living in trailer parks brainwashing their children. A lot of states have regulations and require that whoever is involved has a teaching degree.

Actually...... some are. Of course there are some homeschoolers who live in mansions and have perfectly normal parents and get a great education. Like I said, I'm not trying to paint with a broad stroke and make it all look negative. I'm not trying to offend anyone who homeschools, either. I was trying to go off the previous post. I don't think all states and countries that allow homeschooling have regulations and require that whoever is involved have a teaching degree. I think they all should, but I'm pretty not all do.

One advantage seems to be a lot less stress when dealing with typical high school relationship stuff. A much lower chance of giving in to peer pressure, stds, etc. when it's all practically impossible.

Maybe. I don't know. I technically homeschool because I take all of my classes at home. I'm not a homeschooler, but I don't see kids in person at school every day either. I don't really think that my friends who are going to the brick and mortar schools are dealing with any more peer pressure or anything else than I am. The main difference is they have to be at school fully dressed every morning whereas if I feel like staying up late and going to school in my pajamas I can. :) I think relationship issues can happen even if you're not going to a high school. Hopefully homeschool kids (like the ones who are taught by their parents) still have social networks of other teens. Besides you want some exposure to problems so you can learn how to handle them before you go off to college.
 
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The Portuguese Baptist

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Totally true, an another paradox from our European societies. Even if the religious freedom is in theory one their fundamental principles, one can't truly lives his faith without going against the principle of laicism -so basically a religious education , even not conservative, is considered against the Laicism.

I must disagree with you; I see no paradox here, if we take into consideration the appropriate definitions of these concepts.

Religious freedom is defined as the right to profess and teach any religion, and to practise or perform any rites required by it. Evidently, it has some limits: one such limit is that religious education cannot replace public education. You cannot prohibit your kids from going to public school on grounds of religious freedom, and it makes sense. You are not allowed to apply your right to religious freedom in places designated for other purposes, like public schools; therefore, your religious education cannot replace public education. However, you are free to give your kids any religious education you want in addition to school, and your right to religious freedom in hence respected.

Laicity (or laicism, or whatever — I am not sure how to say it) is defined as the refusal by the state to endorse or impose any particular religion. It means that public education shall not favour any religion, and shall not even pronounce itself in matters of religion. However, it allows for parents to teach anything they wanted to their children outside school.

So, religious freedom and laicity do not contradict each other. Actually, they complement each other: all children must attend public education, controlled by state (I doubt that you would be against this), but every parent is allowed to teach his child whatever he wants outside school.

As a result the European youth doesn't know anymore her own identity, culture and history.

I disagree. I know my own identity, culture and history, and you too.

A "good" education must be the one which leads to the single worldview without any religious culture, or even the knowledge of the ancient texts (the suppression of Latin, Ancient Greek, Hebrew at school).

No. A good education that can be given by the state is one that does not pronounce itself in religious matters.

The government has always loved to build a new generation of clones.

Clones? Really? Do not be ridiculous! You are living proof that you are not a clone, and the same goes for me! Everyone is allowed to have different religious views, and the state only endorses such diversity!
 
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I must disagree with you; I see no paradox here, if we take into consideration the appropriate definitions of these concepts.

Religious freedom is defined as the right to profess and teach any religion, and to practise or perform any rites required by it. Evidently, it has some limits: one such limit is that religious education cannot replace public education. You cannot prohibit your kids from going to public school on grounds of religious freedom, and it makes sense. You are not allowed to apply your right to religious freedom in places designated for other purposes, like public schools; therefore, your religious education cannot replace public education. However, you are free to give your kids any religious education you want in addition to school, and your right to religious freedom in hence respected.

Laicity (or laicism, or whatever — I am not sure how to say it) is defined as the refusal by the state to endorse or impose any particular religion. It means that public education shall not favour any religion, and shall not even pronounce itself in matters of religion. However, it allows for parents to teach anything they wanted to their children outside school.

So, religious freedom and laicity do not contradict each other. Actually, they complement each other: all children must attend public education, controlled by state (I doubt that you would be against this), but every parent is allowed to teach his child whatever he wants outside school.



I disagree. I know my own identity, culture and history, and you too.



No. A good education that can be given by the state is one that does not pronounce itself in religious matters.



Clones? Really? Do not be ridiculous! You are living proof that you are not a clone, and the same goes for me! Everyone is allowed to have different religious views, and the state only endorses such diversity!

I perfectly know what I am saying. I heard a thousand times all the great speeches of "diversity" and "against discrimination" which doesn't really have any concrete sense in our societies. there are only speeches. How nice and useful. You seem to forget that I am a literary girl: I have a great critical sense and I can't stop myself to criticize the society.
I agree on the fact that a good education from a state doesn't pronounce istelf on religious matters. Again a great speech. You can't study a single book in class which doesn't present a negative critique of the religion. That doesn't bother me: sometimes the critic is well-deserved. Just that example to show how senseless religious neutrality is. In our "civil education" classes we learn that we must be kind with Muslims and homosexuals (quite cliché) even if they don't have anything in common. So again the topic of religious beliefs is considered by the government. Even if this same government tries to prevent the religious communities to make their traditional pilgrimages on the street because it would violate the Laicism. Even if these same pilgrimages are allowed in the Constitution.

Yes, I know my own identity, culture and history. But you really should consider the number of Europeans who don't even know when the cathedrals were built! That is supposed to be the role of the school to teach such a thing. I come from a privilege environment, but I also live in the real world.
Europe can do whatever it wants, it won't erase it Christian origins. It seems that Portugal and France are actually quite different, as in my country the Laicism is ironically called "the new state religion". We learn at the ages of 3, 4, 5, that "liberty,egality, fraternity" and laicism are the most important keys of our country and the entire world follows our example, thanks to the Déclaration des Droits de l'Homme et du Citoyen. That is our sacred text!

When I talked about the "good" education in the state, I was quite ironic actually. And yes, the suppression of Ancient Greek, Latin (and Hebrew in some schools) is the first step to a generation of clones. The intellectual community is unanimous and I agree with it: this is so much easier to control a youth which doesn't know and study its Founding texts and yes, the Bible is one of them. I also consider everyone should have a good knowledge of the Founding myths. The perfect laicism at school can't be anything but a myth. Just as the idea of thinking by himself if the perfect definition of what I would call a "fashion" myth. I personally totally support religious classes which would teach the knowledge bases of every main religion.
Moreover in the mentalities you don't deserve any credit for just following your parents' example when it comes to religion. And the religion is only the "totalitarian" thing that all the great authors denounce for some uncultivated in my class. This is what they always heard at home, true -but at school too. And I don't blame them for that! They can't respect something they don't know.
 
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The Portuguese Baptist

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I perfectly know what I am saying. I heard a thousand times all the great speeches of "diversity" and "against discrimination" which doesn't really have any concrete sense in our societies. there are only speeches. How nice and useful. You seem to forget that I am a literary girl: I have a great critical sense and I can't stop myself to criticize the society.
I agree on the fact that a good education from a state doesn't pronounce istelf on religious matters. Again a great speech. You can't study a single book in class which doesn't present a negative critique of the religion. That doesn't bother me: sometimes the critic is well-deserved. Just that example to show how senseless religious neutrality is.

So far, I agree with all that.

In our "civil education" classes we learn that we must be kind with Muslims and homosexuals (quite cliché) even if they don't have anything in common. So again the topic of religious beliefs is considered by the government.

No, that is not the topic of religious beliefs. That is the topic of tolerance.

Even if this same government tries to prevent the religious communities to make their traditional pilgrimages on the street because it would violate the Laicism. Even if these same pilgrimages are allowed in the Constitution.

Does the French government do that? Really? :O That is nonsensical! Every person has the right to practise the rite of his religion.

Furthermore, that does not violate the principle of Laicity. Do not forget that Laicity refers to the state's laicity; it means that the state will not endorse any religious practices or beliefs, but will permit all of them. By definition, it is impossible for the citizens to violate Laicity. So, if the government tries to prevent that pilgrimage, it is the government itself breaking its own principle.

Yes, I know my own identity, culture and history. But you really should consider the number of Europeans who don't even know when the cathedrals were built! That is supposed to be the role of the school to teach such a thing. I come from a privilege environment, but I also live in the real world.

What does the construction of the cathedrals have anything to do with it? I do not know when the cathedrals were built, and I could not care less! Europe is not supposed to have her roots in Catholicism, so knowing when the cathedrals were built is irrelevant to ‘[knowing one's] own identity, culture and history’, as you said. America already has her roots in Christianity, and we all know what problems that has brought. But I believe that the government must be separate from the church, and it saddens me to see whatever traces are still left of Europe's shameful past of religious affiliation with Catholicism, much to the detriment of religious minorities. I defend that, for Europe to be a just and fair union of nations, she must be made up of laic countries and respect adequately and equally all religions.

Europe can do whatever it wants, it won't erase it Christian origins. It seems that Portugal and France are actually quite different, as in my country the Laicism is ironically called "the new state religion". We learn at the ages of 3, 4, 5, that "liberty,egality, fraternity" and laicism are the most important keys of our country and the entire world follows our example, thanks to the Déclaration des Droits de l'Homme et du Citoyen. That is our sacred text!

Of course Europe's Catholic tradition, unfortunately, can never fully be erased! However, the government should its best to erase any religious inequalities which arise from Europe's Catholic tradition. It is not a problem to keep a few aspects of this tradition (this would be particularly useful in maintaining abortion and gay marriage illegal — which is why I am a right-wing conservative/Christian democrat). However, the state should be silent in religious doctrine.

When I talked about the "good" education in the state, I was quite ironic actually. And yes, the suppression of Ancient Greek, Latin (and Hebrew in some schools) is the first step to a generation of clones.

What? I have never learnt Greek, Latin or Hebrew in school. It does not make sense to learn that at school, since it is essentially useless. I fail to see how that is related with ‘building a generation of clones’.

The intellectual community is unanimous and I agree with it: this is so much easier to control a youth which doesn't know and study its Founding texts and yes, the Bible is one of them. I also consider everyone should have a good knowledge of the Founding myths. The perfect laicism at school can't be anything but a myth. Just as the idea of thinking by himself if the perfect definition of what I would call a "fashion" myth.

It is nonsensical to force students to study the Bible. That would fly in the face of the principle of Laicity. Moreover, you actually said, ‘I agree on the fact that a good education from a state doesn't pronounce itself on religious matters.’ So, how can you now say this?

I personally totally support religious classes which would teach the knowledge bases of every main religion.

I would be utterly against that. The state has neither the right nor the competence to teach about religions. Evidently, many wrong things would be taught. For example, just take Christianity: in a country with a Catholic tradition, what would be taught would be Catholicism, with disregard to Protestantism, which is much, much closer to the true Christianity (but that is a story for another time).

Moreover in the mentalities you don't deserve any credit for just following your parents' example when it comes to religion. And the religion is only the "totalitarian" thing that all the great authors denounce for some uncultivated in my class. This is what they always heard at home, true -but at school too. And I don't blame them for that! They can't respect something they don't know.

I did not just follow my parents' example; I analysed and studied everything accurately, and I finally concluded that the Baptist doctrines are the most correct ones. With that in mind, I have established a list of doctrinal beliefs which can be biblically proven (which you can read in my profile page), and these are the basic doctrines upon which I want to build a stable home — needless to say, therefore, my wife needs to agree on all that and share my convictions —, and then eventually pass these beliefs on to my children (if I have any).

The bottom line is this: the state is laic, and I believe that it should remain like that, so that it may respect all religions equally; however, the state must establish a single, obligatory educational system for everyone — one which is silent in religious matters.
 
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Blue Wren

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I red a lot about it recently. This is not very well-known in Europe, so I wanted to know a bit more about that. It seems quite dangerous to me: how a child is supposed to integrate into his own society if he doesn't even attend a school with very different people? To me this isn't good for a child to grow up in a cocoon. Moreover we learn sociability in our first years. And every child needs friendship and to be confronted to someone else's eyes.

So basically I would like to learn the advantages of such a schooling and the reasons why it is so popular in America!

I am also European (Swedish), and was not as familiarised with homeschooling prior to coming to this forum. I've since done far more reading about it, and I agree with your sentiments here, completely. I've also talked with my uncle, who works in the Ministry of Education, about this more. I do not think it is healthy for a child to be raised in a homogeneous environment, where the only view of the world they have, is the worldview their parents create for them.

I do think, that society as a whole, is negatively impacted, when children are taught pseudoscience. Society benefits from having scientifically literate citizens. Proper science education also helps to develop critical reasoning skills, that are useful in life. There is a correlation, between homeschooling, and ignorance about vaccination, as an example.

The lack of regulation, in many areas, presents a problem, as there are children who suffer from abuse, neglect, etc, without authorities being aware, or able to intervene. There was a thread, last year, about a homeschooling "prepping" family, where the parents kept their children cloistered from the rest of society, and were abusive. They horded materials, in preparation for an apocalypse or other disaster. They neglected their children's education; they were spanking the teenagers, which of course is demoralising and inappropriate; they allegedly exposed them to chemicals that were harmful. I've also read about large homeschool families, where the elder children, were not receiving much of an education at all, and were instead spending their days on household duties, and childcare. A woman who has advocated for reform, has done so because she was still illiterate, and incapable of performing simple math problems, at age 12.

I think properly accredited online schools, like the one Cimorene and Ella attend, that is quite different, as it still provides a structured, sound curriculum, and constant contact with other educated adults. This is more ideal, for teens, I believe, than primary school kids. Younger children benefit from attending schools, and socialising in person.
 
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Cimorene

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I think properly accredited online schools, like the one Cimorene and Ella attend, that is quite different, as it still provides a structured, sound curriculum, and constant contact with other educated adults. This is more ideal, for teens, I believe, than primary school kids. Younger children benefit from attending schools, and socialising in person.

I agree that online schools are way better suited for teens than younger kids. As you wrote, the structure and the face to face socializing on a daily basis is super important. I think interacting in person with kids who come from different backgrounds than your own is really needed early in life. By the time you're in your teens you've gotten into the routine of school, and you've made friends. Another obvious difference is that little kids would need an adult to be at home with them.
 
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It is nonsensical to force students to study the Bible. That would fly in the face of the principle of Laicity. Moreover, you actually said, ‘I agree on the fact that a good education from a state doesn't pronounce itself on religious matters.’ So, how can you now say this?

I will no longer continue the debate but I will just say that: to study the Bible, just as studying the Quran or any religious text doesn't force any state to pronounce itself on religious matters. At the contrary. Religion is a part of the everyday life and I can't see why it should be a taboo subject at school. If I lived in a Muslim country, I would want to perfectly know the Muslim teachings and everything. Actually it could be very useful for the youth (we are the future adults of this world) through the Migrants' crise especially. I never talked about a catechism class but a RELIGIOUS class. To learn the main teachings of every main religion... Because I'm sorry, but I can't consider there are no problems when the person you are speaking to tries to defend Islam when "Quran"'s quotations that are actually Facebook quotations.. We can't pretend to take a position on the migrants' crisis if we don't have a perfect knowledge of their beliefs! And I can't see the point of what you are saying on Catholicism. Don't worry, I am not that pretentious and arrogant: I will never say that I am sure I know THE Truth, the only one, and that every other Christians are wrong. I don't believe it, I actually always thought every Christian had the same value as they believe in the same God of life and love. How could I say such a thing? And why so much aggressivity and confidence? I was just taking the example of cathedrals just as it's NORMAL to know when they were built: this is a part of our European culture and I CAN'T see why this is a problem. While saying it I didn't want your "objectives" (and actually very theoretical..) views on Catholicism.. I meant that this is normal to be interested in our own architectural history and to know when some of our most beautiful monuments were built! If I were living in a Muslim country, again, it would be a shame if I didn't know when the most beautiful mosques were built.. To have a solid religious culture is NORMAL and this is essential to control perfectly our own history: that what makes our identity. You will be sorry to learn that what I said just before are the exact words of my most atheist teacher who is very angry against Christianity.

I will stop there and sorryfor this very long message while I promised I would be short :)
 
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