What do you not like about Patristic Universalism?

[Light of the East]

Jut to be sure we understand our terms correctly, Patristic Universalism teaches that the wicked shall spend time in hell. They shall be punished proportionately to the evils they have done in this life, which dovetails nicely with John 5:28-29, Romans 2:5-10, and Matthew 25:31-46.

After a period of time in which justice is satisfied, the punishment shall end. Patristic Universalism teaches that this time of punishment does two things: 1.) it satisfies justice against evil deeds 2.) it brings about a restorative repentance in the wicked, having seen clearly the evil they have done and having come to fully understand it in a way they did not on earth.

The goal of this punishment is restoration, not retribution.

Okay...those who disagree with this - what in particular do you not like about it or disagree with?

Thanks

 

[xpower]

Isn't there something like that in Eastern Orthodox Christianity?

Anyway I don't see anything wrong with this, it sounds more like the restorative Justice rather than retributive Justice.

 

[Inkfingers]

I take the view that Hell is not punishment (because we are born in sin and it is unjust to punish people for that which they could not avoid), but simply a consequence created by actions (a little like how crashing your car is the consequence of drinking heavily before getting behind the wheel).

So Hell is itself created by sin not as punishment for sin.

Which means that it is maintained by sin. As long as sin exists, Hell exists. Sin is the fuel of the furnace, and the igniting spark, so to speak.

 

[Greg J.]

People will be in hell because they never were reborn to get rid of their sinful nature. Nothing in the future can get rid of it, either. In fact, they won't want it, except as a way to stop suffering. They will fully hate God like Satan does.

Anything tainted with sin can never be cleansed, it can only be destroyed (which is what bodily death is in this world, and what hell is for the next). Rebirth can only happen as the result of faith. After a person dies they will know God is real and faith will no longer be possible.

It is very much the case that people end up in hell because of themselves, not because of God. The proof is that God is working for salvation for each of us. (A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand.) Jesus died for everyone.

 

[Light of the East]

People will be in hell because they never were reborn to get rid of their sinful nature. Nothing in the future can get rid of it, either. In fact, they won't want it, except as a way to stop suffering. They will fully hate God like Satan does.

Could I have the chapter and verse that you feel is proof of this?

Anything tainted with sin can never be cleansed, it can only be destroyed (which is what bodily death is in this world, and what hell is for the next). Rebirth can only happen as the result of faith. After a person dies they will know God is real and faith will no longer be possible.

Man's nature is tainted with sin. Are you saying that our natures are never changed?

It is very much the case that people end up in hell because of themselves, not because of God. The proof is that God is working for salvation for each of us. (A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand.) Jesus died for everyone.

If He died for everyone, then explain why everyone is not saved. Is God too weak to be able to save everyone?

 

[Greg J.]

People will be in hell because they never were reborn to get rid of their sinful nature. Nothing in the future can get rid of it, either. In fact, they won't want it, except as a way to stop suffering. They will fully hate God like Satan does.

Could I have the chapter and verse that you feel is proof of this?

God is the source of all love (1 John 4:8, 16.) If God is absent (more absent than he is on earth) then there is no source of love. The fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) are attributes of God; we get them from becoming more like God. Being less like God detracts from having them (lots of Scripture show examples of that; one is greed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

God is absent from hell (from John Piper).

Anything tainted with sin can never be cleansed, it can only be destroyed (which is what bodily death is in this world, and what hell is for the next). Rebirth can only happen as the result of faith. After a person dies they will know God is real and faith will no longer be possible.

Man's nature is tainted with sin. Are you saying that our natures are never changed?

The fact that our nature has been tainted by sin never changes. Whatever is tainted with sin is already dead (disconnected from God) and cannot be untainted (OT principle which is illustrated in Haggai 2:11-13), who is the only source of spiritual Life. Our salvation is through being reborn without sin in Christ.

It is very much the case that people end up in hell because of themselves, not because of God. The proof is that God is working for salvation for each of us. (A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand.) Jesus died for everyone.

If He died for everyone, then explain why everyone is not saved. Is God too weak to be able to save everyone?

Those that do not meet the requirements of salvation have not accepted the rebirth God offers in Christ. The hindrance is not God's power, but man's will. God is not willing to encroach on the free will he gave us. One reason is because having free will is a big part of what it means to be made in God's image, which is a huge gift, not something that needs fixing.

It is a person's choice whether he wants to yield to God's sovereignty and lordship (the right to hold us accountable for what he says is moral and immoral). He gave us life and gave us authority over ourselves. Without yielding your life to God so he can do whatever he wants with it, he will not alter you (recreate, in this case).

And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. (1 John 5:11-12, 1984 NIV)

 

[Hillsage]

People will be in hell because they never were reborn to get rid of their sinful nature. Nothing in the future can get rid of it, either. In fact, they won't want it, except as a way to stop suffering. They will fully hate God like Satan does.

Hmm, no sin nature would mean 'no sin'. I don't think heaven needs to be very big then. How are you doing as far as walking in sinlessness?

Anything tainted with sin can never be cleansed, it can only be destroyed (which is what bodily death is in this world, and what hell is for the next). Rebirth can only happen as the result of faith. After a person dies they will know God is real and faith will no longer be possible.

Obviously "faith" isn't the only way. And we can thank DOUBTING Thomas for that revelation of truth.

JOH 20:25 So the other disciples told him/THOMAS, "We have seen the Lord." But he said to them, "Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails, and place my finger in the mark of the nails, and place my hand in his side, I will not believe."

JOH 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing." 28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe."

I guess 'seeing is just as believing' as 'faith without seeing' according to this scripture. And if you notice, Jesus doesn't say ETERNAL HELL for those who do have to SEE to believe LIKE THOMAS. HE just says, those of us who believe by faith are "BLESSED". When they SEE in the ages to come "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess to the GLORY of God."

It is very much the case that people end up in hell because of themselves, not because of God. The proof is that God is working for salvation for each of us. (A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand.) Jesus died for everyone.

"because of themselves" you say!!! I'm sorry did you ask for the sin nature? Or did GOD CONSIGN YOU TO BE A SINNER????

GAL 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith OF Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

If you didn't sign up for sin, then put the blame on the same one you give credit to for saving you. He'll accept that judgment from me because His plan is better than the plan you hold to for MOST of His beloved creation. You do know the difference between "faith IN Jesus" and "faith OF Jesus", in the verse above, I hope. But don't look for that truth in milktoast modern translations. They didn't believe it either, so they changed the Greek word for OF to IN. I assume to protect their orthodox theology.

 

[juvenissun]

Jut to be sure we understand our terms correctly, Patristic Universalism teaches that the wicked shall spend time in hell. They shall be punished proportionately to the evils they have done in this life, which dovetails nicely with John 5:28-29, Romans 2:5-10, and Matthew 25:31-46.

After a period of time in which justice is satisfied, the punishment shall end. Patristic Universalism teaches that this time of punishment does two things: 1.) it satisfies justice against evil deeds 2.) it brings about a restorative repentance in the wicked, having seen clearly the evil they have done and having come to fully understand it in a way they did not on earth.

The goal of this punishment is restoration, not retribution.

Okay...those who disagree with this - what in particular do you not like about it or disagree with?

Thanks

What happened after they get out of the "hell"? Where would they go?

 

[juvenissun]

If He died for everyone, then explain why everyone is not saved. Is God too weak to be able to save everyone?

Some DON'T WANT TO be saved.

 

[Light of the East]

What happened after they get out of the "hell"? Where would they go?

If hell is restorative, that is, it is a means by which the love of God, and the presence of the One who is Truth, makes us see and repent of our sins, then the next step would be, after the punishment due for their sins, to go to God as the Prodigal went to his father - in a state of repentance and change of heart.

Isn't that the goal for man? That we repent and enter into the life of the Trinity? And who does that perfectly here? Who is to say that it cannot be that for some it starts here and for others it starts there?

Do you object to God's mercy being so wide as to allow men and women to repent even after death, as long as there is a due and just punishment for their sins?

 

[Light of the East]

Some DON'T WANT TO be saved.

Okay. This creates a problem for you because NO ONE wants to be saved in our natural and fallen state. When I was 18, I only wanted my passions. Drugs, drunkeness, as much sex as I could get any way I could get it, and a vile series of blasphemies against God.

Four years later, God having allowed me to taste deeply of my choice, I was more than ready to change my mind when repentance was offered me via the Gospel message.

So once again, the question become this: all believers in this life have come out of lives in which they have chosen sin and rejected God until some point of repentance and turning to God. Do you object that this point may come after death? Where is your proof that it cannot? God is timeless, we are not.

 

[Hillsage]

Okay. This creates a problem for you because NO ONE wants to be saved in our natural and fallen state. When I was 18, I only wanted my passions. Drugs, drunkeness, as much sex as I could get any way I could get it, and a vile series of blasphemies against God.

Four years later, God having allowed me to taste deeply of my choice, I was more than ready to change my mind when repentance was offered me via the Gospel message.

So once again, the question become this: all believers in this life have come out of lives in which they have chosen sin and rejected God until some point of repentance and turning to God. Do you object that this point may come after death? Where is your proof that it cannot? God is timeless, we are not.

Luther writing to Hansen Von Rechenberg 1522

“God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future."
Martin Luther

The After Life by Henry Buckle pg 168

 

[Hillsage]

Just now checking in and found out this didn't come up on the last post, so I'm editing this out.

 

[Greg J.]

Hmm, no sin nature would mean 'no sin'. I don't think heaven needs to be very big then. How are you doing as far as walking in sinlessness?

My own condition is irrelevant. I think the meaning of your "heaven won't need to be big" is true.

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. (bold mine, Matthew 7:13-14, 1984 NIV)

Obviously "faith" isn't the only way. And we can thank DOUBTING Thomas for that revelation of truth.

JOH 20:25 So the other disciples told him/THOMAS, "We have seen the Lord." But he said to them, "Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails, and place my finger in the mark of the nails, and place my hand in his side, I will not believe."

JOH 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing." 28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe."

I guess 'seeing is just as believing' as 'faith without seeing' according to this scripture. And if you notice, Jesus doesn't say ETERNAL HELL for those who do have to SEE to believe LIKE THOMAS. HE just says, those of us who believe by faith are "BLESSED". When they SEE in the ages to come "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess to the GLORY of God."

Thomas doubted Jesus' resurrection. He didn't doubt Jesus was real and Thomas had not failed to yield to God's Lordship.

You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. (John 15:3, 1984 NIV)

Jesus was not emanating the full glory of God when he was with Thomas (John 17:5)—thank goodness:

But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.” (Exodus 33:20, 1984 NIV)

"because of themselves" you say!!! I'm sorry did you ask for the sin nature? Or did GOD CONSIGN YOU TO BE A SINNER????

You asked for and got a sin nature when you first sinned. Or from another perspective, you confirmed you deserved a sin nature when you first sinned. God never created anyone or anything to have a sin nature. Sin nature only comes by rejecting God. God never rejects anyone, and furthermore saves everyone that yields to him being God and Lord by faith (Acts 2:21, Hebrews 11:6).

 

[Light of the East]

God is the source of all love (1 John 4:8, 16.) If God is absent (more absent than he is on earth) then there is no source of love. The fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) are attributes of God; we get them from becoming more like God. Being less like God detracts from having them (lots of Scripture show examples of that; one is greed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

That doesn't really address the question of someone "fully hating God like Satan does." You are simply making a statement of fact with no corollary connection. The fact is that we all hate God to some degree, even Christians, because we are not perfect in love yet. The walk of the Christian is that of overcoming the old man and his spite for God and becoming more and more like Christ. There is no proof in your statement, other than supposition, that those in the next life hate God like Satan does.

God is absent from hell (from John Piper).

Piper didn't stop to think that one through. Scripture says that "if I make my bed in hell, thou are there." I'll take Scripture over Piper, thank you.

The fact that our nature has been tainted by sin never changes. Whatever is tainted with sin is already dead (disconnected from God) and cannot be untainted (OT principle which is illustrated in Haggai 2:11-13), who is the only source of spiritual Life. Our salvation is through being reborn without sin in Christ.

Well, yes, I would agree with that. So what does this have to do with my question in the OP? What do you not like about Patristic Universalism?

Those that do not meet the requirements of salvation have not accepted the rebirth God offers in Christ.

There are no "requirement" for salvation. Scripture says Rom 5:18

"So, then, as through one offence to all men it is to condemnation, so also through one declaration of 'Righteous' it is to all men to justification of life;"

All means all. It's a free gift to us all. So the question really is when do we take advantage of this gift? Some do here in this life and by repentance and changing into the likeness of Christ, avoid the punishments of hell for their sins. That is called "being saved." Others it appears, will have to go through hell and come to repentance for their sins in much torment.

The hindrance is not God's power, but man's will. God is not willing to encroach on the free will he gave us.

Patent nonsense. Since when has the free will of man been more powerful than the will of God? You are making man out to be God in his exertion of his "free-will."

Let me put it another way. What father would watch his child play in a busy freeway, knowing the child is going to get seriously hurt or killed, and say to a passerby "I shall not interfere with the child's free will in this matter."

One reason is because having free will is a big part of what it means to be made in God's image, which is a huge gift, not something that needs fixing.

It is a person's choice whether he wants to yield to God's sovereignty and lordship (the right to hold us accountable for what he says is moral and immoral). He gave us life and gave us authority over ourselves. Without yielding your life to God so he can do whatever he wants with it, he will not alter you (recreate, in this case).

Of course He will. I'm a perfect example of this. At age 18, all I wanted to do was indulge my disordered passions. No sin was too repulsive to me. God allowed this in me, but for a purpose. By 22, I had tasted deeply of the fruit of my sin, and it was bitter and I was looking for the door out. All of my own free will. God didn't twist my arm or coerce me. He just let me simmer in truth for a few years and taste it's bitter fruits.

The same with those who have not repented in this life. Coming face to face with He who is Truth will have the same effect upon them. They will realize what they have done, lament and mourn over it, be punished properly for it - and all that will lead them to turn their will towards God.

For some of us it happens in this life, for some, in the next. God is timeless.....we are not.

 

[Hillsage]

My own condition is irrelevant. I think the meaning of your "heaven won't need to be big" is true.

You don't believe in a big enough God IMO. My God isn't so dumb that He created a eternal salvation plan dependent upon a temporal church that mostly doesn't even witness to their neighbor, let alone the whole world. Some bright lights out there, but not many IMO.

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. (bold mine, Matthew 7:13-14, 1984 NIV)

You simply don't "rightly divide" between the kingdom of God which is here and now, versus going to heaven in the here and after IMO. Go read that verse in context. My bible's 'heading', over that context, even says 'The Golden Rule' which is here and now. NOT 'the way to heaven' in the hereafter.

Thomas doubted Jesus' resurrection. He didn't doubt Jesus was real and Thomas had not failed to yield to God's Lordship.

Neither will anyone else, when every knee bows and every tongue confesses. You think He's going to beat them in to submission like a red headed step child. I believe He'll love them into submission, after their time of 'fair judgment' for their sins, and then He'll forgive them just like the woman caught in adultery.

You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. (John 15:3, 1984 NIV)

Jesus was not emanating the full glory of God when he was with Thomas (John 17:5)—thank goodness:[/QUOTE]
Full glory is your opinion, in my opinion. so if you've no scripture then...?????

JOH 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you

Neither has He "called, drawn, chosen, predestined to believe"...many/most, in this age. Their time will come. And then you will see, what we believe now.

[/quote]You asked for and got a sin nature when you first sinned. Or from another perspective, you confirmed you deserved a sin nature when you first sinned. God never created anyone or anything to have a sin nature. Sin nature only comes by rejecting God. God never rejects anyone, and furthermore saves everyone that yields to him being God and Lord by faith (Acts 2:21, Hebrews 11:6).[/QUOTE]
Not scriptural, but you're entitled to your opinion. I quoted scripture for mine (Gal 3:22) and you got a sin nature the day you were born with sinful flesh just like Jesus was. only difference is, His spirit didn't need to be born again like yours. He had the spirit of Christ which you don't get until you're born again until "he that is joined to the Lord is one spirit". Then the 'spirit of Christ in you' begins.

ROM 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

 

[Greg J.]

God is the source of all love (1 John 4:8, 16.) If God is absent (more absent than he is on earth) then there is no source of love. The fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) are attributes of God; we get them from becoming more like God. Being less like God detracts from having them (lots of Scripture show examples of that; one is greed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

That doesn't really address the question of someone "fully hating God like Satan does." You are simply making a statement of fact with no corollary connection. The fact is that we all hate God to some degree, even Christians, because we are not perfect in love yet. The walk of the Christian is that of overcoming the old man and his spite for God and becoming more and more like Christ. There is no proof in your statement, other than supposition, that those in the next life hate God like Satan does.

Yes, it does. Satan's nature is what is left over when all of God is absent/removed from someone.

This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. (1 John 1:5, 1984 NIV)

Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him. (1 John 2:9-11, 1984 NIV)

God is absent from hell (from John Piper).

Piper didn't stop to think that one through. Scripture says that "if I make my bed in hell, thou are there." I'll take Scripture over Piper, thank you.

Well, Piper is just a man and could be viewing things incorrectly, but the charge that he hasn't stopped to think about it is unmerited. He wrote that when he was 68 years old after living a life in ministry, and thought about things enough to write more than 50 books. The scripture you quote is not a theology defining verse. The writer was poetically saying that he cannot escape God's love. Sometimes in the OT, a reference to Sheol (the word you wrote as "hell") is a reference from an earthly point of view, and is not a statement having anything to do with the afterlife. One example: No one remembers you when he is dead. Who praises you from the grave? (Psalms 6:5, 1984 NIV)

The fact that our nature has been tainted by sin never changes. Whatever is tainted with sin is already dead (disconnected from God) and cannot be untainted (OT principle which is illustrated in Haggai 2:11-13), who is the only source of spiritual Life. Our salvation is through being reborn without sin in Christ.

Well, yes, I would agree with that. So what does this have to do with my question in the OP? What do you not like about Patristic Universalism?

It means that if someone is in hell because of his sin nature, his sin nature will never go away, so he will be there forever.

Those that do not meet the requirements of salvation have not accepted the rebirth God offers in Christ.

There are no "requirement" for salvation. Scripture says Rom 5:18

"So, then, as through one offence to all men it is to condemnation, so also through one declaration of 'Righteous' it is to all men to justification of life;"

All means all. It's a free gift to us all. So the question really is when do we take advantage of this gift? Some do here in this life and by repentance and changing into the likeness of Christ, avoid the punishments of hell for their sins. That is called "being saved." Others it appears, will have to go through hell and come to repentance for their sins in much torment.

The requirement for salvation is to believe in Jesus, but what that means is specific, because even demons believe in Jesus. The kind of belief required recognizes (and acknowledges) Jesus as their Lord. Those that believe in Jesus but do not acknowledge him as Lord with their actions are the unsaved people Jesus described in Matthew 7:15-27.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 7:21, 1984 NIV)

The hindrance is not God's power, but man's will. God is not willing to encroach on the free will he gave us.

Patent nonsense. Since when has the free will of man been more powerful than the will of God? You are making man out to be God in his exertion of his "free-will."

Let me put it another way. What father would watch his child play in a busy freeway, knowing the child is going to get seriously hurt or killed, and say to a passerby "I shall not interfere with the child's free will in this matter."

Why would you think of this as a power struggle? There is no such thing with God. God never makes a decision based on whether he has enough power or not. He always has enough power to do whatever he wants. It is a struggle on our end whether we want to submit to God or not—every day, and part of the reason it is a struggle is because we were raised in a fallen world by fallen people and have a sinful nature. It requires daily choices and effort (Matthew 11:30) to follow Christ.

See all of Romans 9. One verse is:
One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” (Romans 9:19-20, 1984 NIV)

One reason is because having free will is a big part of what it means to be made in God's image, which is a huge gift, not something that needs fixing.

It is a person's choice whether he wants to yield to God's sovereignty and lordship (the right to hold us accountable for what he says is moral and immoral). He gave us life and gave us authority over ourselves. Without yielding your life to God so he can do whatever he wants with it, he will not alter you (recreate, in this case).

Of course He will. I'm a perfect example of this. At age 18, all I wanted to do was indulge my disordered passions. No sin was too repulsive to me. God allowed this in me, but for a purpose. By 22, I had tasted deeply of the fruit of my sin, and it was bitter and I was looking for the door out. All of my own free will. God didn't twist my arm or coerce me. He just let me simmer in truth for a few years and taste it's bitter fruits.

The same with those who have not repented in this life. Coming face to face with He who is Truth will have the same effect upon them. They will realize what they have done, lament and mourn over it, be punished properly for it - and all that will lead them to turn their will towards God.

For some of us it happens in this life, for some, in the next. God is timeless.....we are not.

Your words confirm my point. The consequences of everything you wrote came about because of your will. The wages of sin is death, but it isn't God that kills you. It's you killing yourself (Romans 5:12-14).

 

[ViaCrucis]

As far as our human nature never changing, St. Gregory Nazianzus writes,

"For we do not sever the Man from the Godhead, but we lay down as a dogma the Unity and Identity of Person, Who of old was not Man but God, and the Only Son before all ages, unmingled with body or anything corporeal; but Who in these last days has assumed Manhood also for our salvation; passible in His Flesh, impassible in His Godhead; circumscript in the body, uncircumscript in the Spirit; at once earthly and heavenly, tangible and intangible, comprehensible and incomprehensible; that by One and the Same Person, Who was perfect Man and also God, the entire humanity fallen through sin might be created anew. ...

For that which He has not assumed He has not healed; but that which is united to His Godhead is also saved. If only half Adam fell, then that which Christ assumes and saves may be half also; but if the whole of his nature fell, it must be united to the whole nature of Him that was begotten, and so be saved as a whole." - St. Gregory Nazianzus, Against the Apollinarians

What was lost in Adam is restored in Christ. What in Adam became condemned to death has been made alive and brought into the freedom of God in Christ through the resurrection. For God, in Christ, has become man and thus redeemed and restored all that is human; human nature in Jesus is made whole, reconciled, and we in Him have been reconciled to God through faith according to the grace of the Gospel of God by our Lord's death and resurrection. And our hope, present now through faith, is to the resurrection of the dead on the last day when, as St. Paul says, God will "give life also to your mortal bodies" (Romans 8:11).

If our humanity remains forever condemned and unalterable in sin and mortality, then the Incarnation is meaningless, Christ's death and resurrection is meaningless, and we are without hope of salvation, because our salvation is precisely this: that God has in Christ overcome and conquered the powers of sin, death, hell, and the devil and delivered the whole human race to Himself and in Him to God the Father, thereby justifying the unjust by grace; and that in Christ God is, and will, make all things new, unto the ages of ages, world without end.

This is the Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Greg J.]

That depends on what you mean by humanity. I was using a definition of humanity aligned with what is able to be tainted with sin. Our memories cannot be tainted with sin themselves. Our existence is forever and that is not altered by sin.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! (2 Corinthians 5:17, 1984 NIV)

May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation. (bold mine, Galatians 6:14-15, 1984 NIV)

After we die bodily everything about us that was tainted with sin is gone. We are a new creation in Christ that exists forever with spiritual life. There is no such thing as that kind of life apart from God.

... And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. (1 John 5:20b, 1984 NIV)

I have written nothing that detracts from the necessity and greatness of the Incarnation and the gift of Jesus' life. Our sonship in Adam ends in death. Life for us is only available in Jesus Christ.

Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ (John 3:6-7, 1984 NIV)

 

[juvenissun]

If hell is restorative, that is, it is a means by which the love of God, and the presence of the One who is Truth, makes us see and repent of our sins, then the next step would be, after the punishment due for their sins, to go to God as the Prodigal went to his father - in a state of repentance and change of heart.

Isn't that the goal for man? That we repent and enter into the life of the Trinity? And who does that perfectly here? Who is to say that it cannot be that for some it starts here and for others it starts there?

Do you object to God's mercy being so wide as to allow men and women to repent even after death, as long as there is a due and just punishment for their sins?

In God's Kingdom, a person who only repented (or restored) is NOT good enough. Your view is NOT a religious view. It is a view of Humanism. There is a BIG difference in quality, just like to compare a person of primary school education with a person who has a Ph.D. degree. People who go to Hell is not qualified to be in the Heaven, repented or not.

Everyone, include the devil, will certainly repent in the Hell almost immediately. But the Hell is not a correction center. It is a home. A home of people's choice.