"What do you mean by faith?"

[Bespectacled Ape]

This is a thread for those that have the strongest faith, since these questions have "stumbled" many since Augustine.

Some religions define faith as not your own belief, but belief that God has given to you. Therefore, only those that are given faith are saved (Single Predestination), and the rest are damned (logically, rationally, Double Predestination). This would make all Christians robots (lack of Free Will).

I think I fully understand how with (IMHO, incorrect) logic some religions get to this point (via Augustine), and some will say that no one has Assurance (even though many in the Bible clearly had Assurance), but where does it go from here? What I have seen is that these religions then fall back on works, saying that if you imitate those leaders of your religion, you will be saved. In a few words, what is your experience (not just your doctrine, please)?

 

[d taylor]

Faith is the same as trust.

A person has faith that God has promised to give them His free gift of Eternal Life if they have faith in The Messiah for Eternal Life.

A person trust that God has promised to give them His free gift of Eternal Life if they trust in The Messiah for Eternal Life.

 

[rturner76]

In a few words, what is your experience (not just your doctrine, please)?

To me faith is an action word. You don't possess faith, you live it. My experience in a few words.

 

[Carl Emerson]

OK for me a key verse is Faiths come from hearing the Word of Christ.

So faith is not maintaining a mind set, it is believing what you have heard.

The opposite of faith is unbelief.

However the Word of Christ is spoken by the Holy Spirit to you personally.

This can come while reading the Scripture but not exclusively so.

 

[pasifika]

This is a thread for those that have the strongest faith, since these questions have "stumbled" many since Augustine.

Some religions define faith as not your own belief, but belief that God has given to you. Therefore, only those that are given faith are saved (Single Predestination), and the rest are damned (logically, rationally, Double Predestination). This would make all Christians robots (lack of Free Will).

I think I fully understand how with (IMHO, incorrect) logic some religions get to this point (via Augustine), and some will say that no one has Assurance (even though many in the Bible clearly had Assurance), but where does it go from here? What I have seen is that these religions then fall back on works, saying that if you imitate those leaders of your religion, you will be saved. In a few words, what is your experience (not just your doctrine, please)?

We must first be given the "Spirit" without this, everything else i.e. our own knowledge, experience, wisdom, etc is fruitless...

Our Faith (assurance, and confidence) comes from the work of the "Spirit" within our minds and our hearts...this leads to live a life dictates by the Spirit...

My experience, is to live a life according to the teachings of Christ (Apostles) even if its contrary to my culture, norm or this "modern world" etc

 

[Clare73]

This is a thread for those that have the strongest faith, since these questions have "stumbled" many since Augustine.

Some religions define faith as not your own belief, but belief that God has given to you. Therefore, only those that are given faith are saved (Single Predestination), and the rest are damned (logically, rationally, Double Predestination). This would make all Christians robots (lack of Free Will).

I'm gonna' dig in here.

Free will is the power to choose what one prefers without external force or constraint.

God made me with a preference for ice cream.
Does that mean I do not have free will?

If God gives me a preference for him, so that I believe him, does that mean I do not have free will?
I choose, without external force or constraint, what I prefer.
This is the very definition of free will.

I think I fully understand how with (IMHO, incorrect) logic some religions get to this point (via Augustine), and some will say that no one has Assurance (even though many in the Bible clearly had Assurance), but where does it go from here? What I have seen is that these religions then fall back on works, saying that if you imitate those leaders of your religion, you will be saved. In a few words, what is your experience (not just your doctrine, please)?

 

[Margot Lugo]

Bespectacled Ape, You've posted a great question. It really got me thinking! And if you're so inclined, I'm curious to ask how you define your faith? It is in our true contrition to sin and our desire to accept the gift of Christ that IS salvation. (IMHO) My faith is a bi-product of having received Christ's gift. For me, it is knowing that God's word is perfect and Holy. I have faith that He knew me before I was in my mother's womb just as I have faith in God's promise through His living word.

 

[fhansen]

This is a thread for those that have the strongest faith, since these questions have "stumbled" many since Augustine.

Some religions define faith as not your own belief, but belief that God has given to you. Therefore, only those that are given faith are saved (Single Predestination), and the rest are damned (logically, rationally, Double Predestination). This would make all Christians robots (lack of Free Will).

I think I fully understand how with (IMHO, incorrect) logic some religions get to this point (via Augustine), and some will say that no one has Assurance (even though many in the Bible clearly had Assurance), but where does it go from here? What I have seen is that these religions then fall back on works, saying that if you imitate those leaders of your religion, you will be saved. In a few words, what is your experience (not just your doctrine, please)?

Faith is a gift which is accessible to anyone, but also a gift that can be refused. As we accept it, however, we're turning to God, as our God, reversing the choice and the position that Adam opted for in Eden where he denied God's authority, effectively denying his godhood, becoming his own "god" instead. As we believe in God we enter a state of fellowship and agreement with Him. We acknowledge our need for Him while acknowledging His goodness, trustworthiness, mercy, and love. That relationship, itself, places us back into a state of justice; man is made for communion with God and is lost, sick, dead, disordered- apart from Him.

So faith, as with hope and love, is both a gift and a choice. A choice we make daily as we pick up our cross and follow -or not. We can refuse and reject the gift at any point along the way.

 

[Bespectacled Ape]

Bespectacled Ape, You've posted a great question. It really got me thinking! And if you're so inclined, I'm curious to ask how you define your faith?

It seems my definition of faith is the same as most/all of you on this forum so far. Faith is very similar to trust, or belief, in Jesus as my friend. He is such a good friend that I would reject all other friends, relationships, conveniences and things on this earth to maintain that friendship. Kind of like the Pearl of Great Price. This is what separates me from unbelievers and the demons (who also believe, and tremble).

But the faith is mine, it is not been placed in me. I was given a (at least quasi-)Christian education, and attended church most of my life, but didn't really "get it" until I was in my late 30's. Like Paul, I had to go through some challenges first, then I got it. So I think someone could say that faith was induced in me, but I always have the right to reject it (though that "fear of THE LORD" keeps me faithful; see Proverbs 1:7 but especially Luke 12:4-7)

I am tip-toeing in some very deep (1500 year-old) weeds here. I am apparently far more Arminian than I thought I was. Apparently many that follow Augustine today seem to feel that Arminians are Semi-Pelagians (actually Semi-Augustinians, and since Augustine is not canon, I don't have to be Augustinian).

But my original question relates to the effects of the doctrine of predestination. Put another way; What is the fruit of predestination (as defined by modern Calvinists and/or Lutherans)? [And BTW, let's not take this too far, and this doesn't mean that I believe everything they do is wrong...]

I will answer that question too, and this is why I started this topic with the warning: this can shake your faith. I don't see any good fruit coming from Augustine's (latter) definition of predestination. I see:
- Unbelief (eg "How could God give no Free Will to the damned? I can't believe in that kind of God.')
- Division (Galatians 5:16-21)
- Works Righteousness ('I want to know that I am saved so I will do the works that my church tells me to')
- Pride ('I work hard to prove that I am obviously saved, so I should be looked up to, just like the leaders of our church.')
- Dissembling ('We shouldn't tell new believers about this doctrine because it may shake their faith.')
- Lack of Discipline ('Who am I to judge? Even though the Bible clearly and repeatedly says these are sins, maybe this person will be saved anyway, so how can I tell them not to do whatever they want?': eg 1 Cor 5:9-13)

I don't want to think on these things (Philippians 4:8).

I am not trying to bait anyone here, poke someone in the eye, or stir up trouble. I am just truly curious to understand people's experience of the doctrine of predestination. I'm being a "fruit inspector" (Matthew 7:1-6).

 

[St_Worm2]

Hello @Bespectacled Ape, I see that your interest is most concerned with Divine predestination (and I have some comments and questions for you about that). In regard to your OP and its title first however, I thought that you might be interested to read what the Reformers meant by saving faith, and what they believed was involved in someone coming to that kind of faith (especially since faith, specifically sole fide, as the instrumental cause of the Reformation, was the Reformers' principal focus).

ESSENTIAL ELEMENTS OF SAVING FAITH

What are the constituent elements of saving faith? The Protestant Reformers recognized that biblical faith has three essential aspects: notitia, assensus, and fiducia.

Notitia refers to the content of faith, the things we believe. There are certain things we are required to believe about Christ, namely, that He is the Son of God, that He is our Savior, that He has provided an atonement, and so on.

Assensus is the conviction that the content of our faith is true. One can know about the Christian faith and yet believe that it is not true. We might have a doubt or two mixed with our faith, but there has to be a certain level of intellectual affirmation and conviction if we are to be saved. Before anyone can really trust in Jesus Christ, he has to believe that Christ indeed is the Savior, that He is who He claimed to be. Genuine faith says that the content, the notitia, is true.

Fiducia refers to personal trust and reliance. Knowing and believing the content of the Christian faith is not enough, for even demons can do that (James 2:19). Faith is effectual only if one personally trusts in Christ alone for salvation. It is one thing to give an intellectual assent to a proposition but quite another to place personal trust in it. We can say that we believe in justification by faith alone and yet still think that we are going to get to heaven by our achievements, our works, or our striving. It is easy to get the doctrine of justification by faith into our heads, but it is hard to get it into the bloodstream such that we cling to Christ alone for salvation.

There is another element to fiducia besides trust, and that is affection. An unregenerate person will never come to Jesus, because he does not want Jesus. In his mind and heart, he is fundamentally at enmity with the things of God. As long as someone is hostile to Christ, he has no affection for Him. Satan is a case in point. Satan knows the truth, but he hates the truth. He is utterly disinclined to worship God because he has no love for God. We are like that by nature. We are dead in our sin. We walk according to the powers of this world and indulge the lusts of the flesh. Until the Holy Spirit changes us, we have hearts of stone. An unregenerate heart is without affection for Christ; it is both lifeless and loveless. The Holy Spirit changes the disposition of our hearts so that we see the sweetness of Christ and embrace Him. None of us loves Christ perfectly, but we cannot love Him at all unless the Holy Spirit changes the heart of stone and makes it a heart of flesh. ~Sproul, R. C. (2014). Everyone’s a Theologian: An Introduction to Systematic Theology (pp. 238–239). Reformation Trust.
​

God bless you!

--David

"We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone." ~John Calvin
.​

 

[bling]

It seems my definition of faith is the same as most/all of you on this forum so far. Faith is very similar to trust, or belief, in Jesus as my friend. He is such a good friend that I would reject all other friends, relationships, conveniences and things on this earth to maintain that friendship. Kind of like the Pearl of Great Price. This is what separates me from unbelievers and the demons (who also believe, and tremble).

But the faith is mine, it is not been placed in me. I was given a (at least quasi-)Christian education, and attended church most of my life, but didn't really "get it" until I was in my late 30's. Like Paul, I had to go through some challenges first, then I got it. So I think someone could say that faith was induced in me, but I always have the right to reject it (though that "fear of THE LORD" keeps me faithful; see Proverbs 1:7 but especially Luke 12:4-7)

I am tip-toeing in some very deep (1500 year-old) weeds here. I am apparently far more Arminian than I thought I was. Apparently many that follow Augustine today seem to feel that Arminians are Semi-Pelagians (actually Semi-Augustinians, and since Augustine is not canon, I don't have to be Augustinian).

But my original question relates to the effects of the doctrine of predestination. Put another way; What is the fruit of predestination (as defined by modern Calvinists and/or Lutherans)? [And BTW, let's not take this too far, and this doesn't mean that I believe everything they do is wrong...]

I will answer that question too, and this is why I started this topic with the warning: this can shake your faith. I don't see any good fruit coming from Augustine's (latter) definition of predestination. I see:
- Unbelief (eg "How could God give no Free Will to the damned? I can't believe in that kind of God.')
- Division (Galatians 5:16-21)
- Works Righteousness ('I want to know that I am saved so I will do the works that my church tells me to')
- Pride ('I work hard to prove that I am obviously saved, so I should be looked up to, just like the leaders of our church.')
- Dissembling ('We shouldn't tell new believers about this doctrine because it may shake their faith.')
- Lack of Discipline ('Who am I to judge? Even though the Bible clearly and repeatedly says these are sins, maybe this person will be saved anyway, so how can I tell them not to do whatever they want?': eg 1 Cor 5:9-13)

I don't want to think on these things (Philippians 4:8).

I am not trying to bait anyone here, poke someone in the eye, or stir up trouble. I am just truly curious to understand people's experience of the doctrine of predestination. I'm being a "fruit inspector" (Matthew 7:1-6).

“How does God know miraculously the future perfectly?”

Think about this: If I know perfectly a truly free will choice you made yesterday that choice is fixed and cannot be changed since it is history. The fact I know your free will choice of yesterday, does not keep it from being a free will choice.

History cannot be changed even if God was the only one to know about something that has happened, since it still happened. Since God does everything right perfectly the first time, there is no reason to do it over again.

God is outside of time and omnipresent throughout time, so God at the end of time knows everything historically that has happened throughout time, making it unchangeable (fixed). Yet again just because God at the end of time knows all things that happened throughout time perfectly, does not mean human autonomous free will choice could not have been made.

God at the end of time is the same God existing within Himself at the beginning of time and thus God has historically all the foreknowledge of what happened throughout time, but again that does not mean humans could not have made autonomous free will choices.

God did not present this miraculous method of “how” He knows the future, but that is not unusual and communicates to man from man’s perspective is also God’s way.

There are other ways God can know stuff, but He is outside of time, so He also knows everything historically throughout time?

God is very much interacting with humans, but knows everything that has happened already in the future as pure unchangeable history. It is like God at the end of time sends all human history back to himself at the beginning of time, it is information and not like God is living it twice or constantly.

Jesus knew when He was teaching His disciple, what He would be going through on the cross as pure history, but that does not mean He was on the cross constantly.

 

[Soyeong]

This is a thread for those that have the strongest faith, since these questions have "stumbled" many since Augustine.

Some religions define faith as not your own belief, but belief that God has given to you. Therefore, only those that are given faith are saved (Single Predestination), and the rest are damned (logically, rationally, Double Predestination). This would make all Christians robots (lack of Free Will).

I think I fully understand how with (IMHO, incorrect) logic some religions get to this point (via Augustine), and some will say that no one has Assurance (even though many in the Bible clearly had Assurance), but where does it go from here? What I have seen is that these religions then fall back on works, saying that if you imitate those leaders of your religion, you will be saved. In a few words, what is your experience (not just your doctrine, please)?

Faith is synonymous with trust, loyalty, dependability, and reliability when it comes to God's nature as being the guide for how we are to live our lives. The way that we live expresses what we believe to be true about the nature of who Christ is, so for example, when we do what is righteous in obedience to God's law, we are experiencing, expressing our love for, believing in, and testifying about God's righteousness. This is why there are many verses that connect our belief in God with our obedience to His commandments.

God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so obediently putting our trust in what God has instructed for salvation is the way to put our faith in God for salvation. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so the gift of living in obedience to God's law is inherently part of the concept of Jesus saving us from living in transgression of God's law. In regard to Ephesians 2:8-10, the gender of the Greek words shows that it is the whole of salvation by grace through faith that is the gift of God, not faith that is given to us, and we are made new creations in Christ to do good works, so while we do not earn our salvation by our works lest anyone should boast, doing good works is nevertheless and integral part of our salvation from not doing good works.

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

Well, what do you think it means? For example, you could say that, if you are sitting on an airplane, you would have faith in the pilot so that he won't crash the plane and that he knows what he's doing. That's what faith means. The Bible is not difficult.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

This is a thread for those that have the strongest faith, since these questions have "stumbled" many since Augustine.

Some religions define faith as not your own belief, but belief that God has given to you. Therefore, only those that are given faith are saved (Single Predestination), and the rest are damned (logically, rationally, Double Predestination). This would make all Christians robots (lack of Free Will).

I think I fully understand how with (IMHO, incorrect) logic some religions get to this point (via Augustine), and some will say that no one has Assurance (even though many in the Bible clearly had Assurance), but where does it go from here? What I have seen is that these religions then fall back on works, saying that if you imitate those leaders of your religion, you will be saved. In a few words, what is your experience (not just your doctrine, please)?

We are saved by Gods’ grace through faith – Ephesians 2:8-9
Faith in the scripture make us wise unto God’s salvation – 2 Timothy 3:15; John 3:36
Faith in the scriptures make us disciples of Jesus – John 8:31-36
Faith in the scriptures sanctify us – John 17:17
Faith in Gods’ word give us life as we believe them by God’s Spirit – John 6:63; John 3:16-36

Our faith comes from and is found in believing the scriptures – Romans 10:17
Without faith in God’s Word we have no salvation because our salvation and faith comes from believing and following what Gods’ Word says – John 3:36; Romans 10:17; John 17:17; John 8:31-36
Whatsoever is not of faith in God’s word is sin – Romans 14:23
Without faith in God’s Word it is impossible to please God – Hebrews 11:6
Continuing to believe God’s word is the condition of becoming a disciple of Jesus -John 8:31
We are to live by faith in every word that proceeds from the mouth of God – Matthew 4:4

 

[Clare73]

Well, what do you think it means? For example, you could say that, if you are sitting on an airplane, you would have faith in the pilot so that he won't crash the plane and that he knows what he's doing. That's what faith means. The Bible is not difficult.

No need to be stumbled. . .

According to the NT, saving faith is believing in and trusting on the person and atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right(eous) standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," declared righteous (justification) with the imputed (reckoned/credited) righteousness of Jesus Christ (Romans 4:11b), followed by a life of obedience in the Holy Spirit to the law of Christ (Romans 13:8-10; Matthew 22:37-40) which leads to righteousness leading to holiness (Romans 6:16, Romans 6:19) of sanctification, for "without holiness no one will see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

 

[DerSchweik]

Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God. (John 12:42ff)

(Unwilling to confess, loving the approval of men first is not Faith)

You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. (James 2:19)

(Behaving like demons is not faith)

For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief. (Hebrews 3:16ff)

(Disobedience is not faith)

“What commandment is the foremost of all?” Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:28ff)

It should be clear from these scriptures that belief and obedience go hand-in-hand; indeed, they are synonymous. "Faith" from this perspective then is being obedient to the greatest commandment, i.e. loving God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength. To the degree we're able to do this is the degree to which we demonstrate faith in Him.

(And thankfully, it is by degrees because who is able to fully obey this commandment?)

 

[Cockcrow]

To me faith is an action word. You don't possess faith, you live it. My experience in a few words.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Faith is trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation

 

[rturner76]

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Faith is trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation

What is the evidence of that faith?