What do you call the thinking behind this quote:

[Rick Otto]

You may have missed the point here, in that authority, as in tyranny or any other such evil, as demonstrated in 1984, could care less about the "truth", and in fact, destroys it, and anyone who speaks it.

I've read 1984, twice in fact, and I've seen the movie. Also, Sis, as I stated above to Rick Otto, I'm in agreement that we have to discern whether the teaching has really been "authorized" by God in Christ. Sometimes the things that some people have said while in the hierarchy of the Church have been false.

Anyway, maybe I'm at fault here for not making myself clear enough, but while I can agree that a statement like that of St. Ignatius can be dangerous, it also isn't a reason to throw the baby of all 'Church Tradition' out the window with the bath water like some Fundamentalist Christians tend to do.

Absolutely correct.
Yet we forget that ecclesiastical authority IS A BABY, lol, and tho it unite us in purpose, it is not our father and must be kept in perspective or it will become a dictator, dealing out torture and death for non-compliance.

So I was more concerned more specifically with the political agenda of his counter-reformation, and the evolution of that faction of his society, into a major player in global politics.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Read it again. (You changed it, and perhaps didn't realize it.)

Then give some thought as to why i posted my first thought on it, which was:

1984.

An example of "authority" DEFINING "truth":

Ok. Let's try this again, brinny. I know that I changed the phrasing, and I did that on purpose, because if the Church indeed has the Truth of Christ, then it supports and promotes that Truth, and at times...it will even aid in defining some of that Truth for better understanding. However, I also think I understand what you are wishing to warn us against, that we shouldn't just accept what the leadership in our churches claim is the truth without question and without testing it in the Spirit and by Scripture for ourselves as well.

Is this closer to what you had in mind, or am I still missing your point? If I'm still missing it (which could always be the case, even after having watched that little bit from the 1984 movie you posted), then you will need to spell out for me.

 

[brinny]

Ok. Let's try this again, brinny. I know that I changed the phrasing, and I did that on purpose, because if the Church indeed has the Truth of Christ, then it supports and promotes that Truth, and at times...it will even aid in defining some of that Truth for better understanding. However, I also think I understand what you are wishing to warn us against, that we shouldn't just accept what the leadership in our churches claim is the truth without question and without testing it in the Spirit and by Scripture for ourselves as well.

Is this closer to what you had in mind, or am I still missing your point? If I'm still missing it (which could always be the case, even after having watched that little bit from the movie, 1984), then you will need to spell out for me.

LOL! Nah, i'll just leave you to however you interpreted it.

What i posted had nothing to do with "churches".

 

[2PhiloVoid]

LOL! Nah, i'll just leave you to however you interpreted it.

What i posted had nothing to do with "churches".

Well, me a Otto were talking in connection to St. Ignatius, and if you have something you want us to understand, I'm all ears ...

 

[brinny]

Well, me a Otto were talking in connection to St. Ignatius, and if you have something you want us to understand, I'm all ears ...

LOL! I already shared it.

No biggie if it was not understood.

 

[Rick Otto]

Well, me a Otto were talking in connection to St. Ignatius, and if you have something you want us to understand, I'm all ears ...

I appreciate your attitude, but I think me and brinn share a difference in orientation. I suspect our experience of God, our relationship with Him exists more outside of what we call organized religion than through organized religion. We are not as comfortable with officiality as you. Perhaps we were simply not afforded the necessary circumstances for that to happen, for better or worse.
We may simply have suffered abuses you were spared.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I appreciate your attitude, but I think me and brinn share a difference in orientation. I suspect our experience of God, our relationship with Him exists more outside of what we call organized religion than through organized religion. We are not as comfortable with officiality as you. Perhaps we were simply not afforded the necessary circumstances for that to happen, for better or worse.
We may simply have suffered abuses you were spared.

Maybe so. I can't say that I've had any "spiritual experiences" akin to the movie, 1984. That kind of thing is pretty harsh. However, I have had a few contentions with fellow Christians and/or church leaders that made me want to just walk away ...

...I don't put up very long with gross attitudes or errors in the Church, whether from leadership or from fellow Christians. Of course, come to think of it, even though I try to be somewhat forbearing with diverse viewpoints since I'm very philosophically inclined, I still don't put up with too much ideological grief from people in general, whether they are Christian or atheist.

 

[FireDragon76]

I guess nobody has ever heard of hyperbole.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I guess nobody has ever heard of hyperbole.

...good point. Before I sidetracked myself in this thread, I was going to raise the question, "Do we know what the context of this quote from St. Ignatius happens to be overall; what is he actually trying to communicate?" I haven't read more than a few bits and pieces of St. Ignatius, so I've been tempted to look up my readings on the Church Fathers for a fuller investigation as to his meaning and intent.

 

[FireDragon76]

BTW, the quote is from Ignatius de Loyola, not Ignatius of Antioch.

Given the context, the quote from Ignatius de Loyola was obviously hyperbole, an expression of loyalty to the hierarchy of Rome.

 

[dreadnought]

BTW, the quote is from Ignatius de Loyola, not Ignatius of Antioch.

Given the context, the quote from Ignatius de Loyola was obviously hyperbole, an expression of loyalty to the hierarchy of Rome.

We are to follow Jesus Christ, not the hierarchy of the church.

 

[Rick Otto]

I guess nobody has ever heard of hyperbole.

Nobody ever!

 

[Rick Otto]

BTW, the quote is from Ignatius de Loyola, not Ignatius of Antioch.

Given the context, the quote from Ignatius de Loyola was obviously hyperbole, an expression of loyalty to the hierarchy of Rome.

Maybe he was just pushing back at Martin Luther's hyperbole?
Martin didn't have a scary book of spiritual exercises, tho.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

BTW, the quote is from Ignatius de Loyola, not Ignatius of Antioch.

Given the context, the quote from Ignatius de Loyola was obviously hyperbole, an expression of loyalty to the hierarchy of Rome.

Thank you for that added historical context, FirdDragon76; that right there immediately clears a few things things up for me...and I sincerely mean that!

No wonder @Rick Otto and @brinny are grimacing at my first responses ... ...and I would've been rummaging through the writings of St. Ignatius the Church Father trying to find some needle in the haystack that doesn't exist. Of course, ...I probably would have eventually just Googled the silly thing ... then I'd be doing one of these ...

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of Ignatius de Loyola; and I lean more toward the ideas of Blaise Pascal, so you all might be able to understand my position in this regard ...

 

[Rick Otto]

Thank you for that added historical context, FirdDragon76; that right there immediately clears a few things things up for me...and I sincerely mean that!

No wonder @Rick Otto and @brinny are grimacing at my first responses ... ...and I would've been rummaging through the writings of St. Ignatius the Church Father trying to find some needle in the haystack that doesn't exist. Of course, ...I probably would have eventually just Googled the silly thing ... then I'd be doing one of these ...

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of Ignatius de Loyola; and I lean more toward the ideas of Blaise Pascal, so you all might be able to understand my position in this regard ...

Sorry I didnt make that clear from the start.

 

[JIMINZ]

It must first be understood, "All Authority comes from God"

Rom. 13:1
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

But Authority does not mean it will always present, or represent the Truth, but it will, always represent Power.

God makes Kings both to Rise and Fall, to fulfill His purpose in the Earth, some for the good some for the evil.

Nebuchadnezzar, Pharaoh, David, Lincoln, Hitler, Churchill, Gorbachev.
Whether we like it or not, whether we agree with it or not, even Trump has his Authority given to him by God.

Not everyone who has Authority uses it for good, Authority cannot be defined as good, and it cannot be taken for granted, that Authority will always support, or even promulgate truth.

Therefore there are those who have been given Authority which abuse that Authority, they will be judged for their actions while in Authority.

 

[DogmaHunter]

"“We should always be disposed to believe that that which appears white is really black, if the hierarchy of the Church so decides.”
―Saint Ignatius

Hierarchy uber alles?

Irrationality. Dogma. Gullibility. Lack of intellectual honesty/integrity.


Reminds me of that phrase: "When the facts of reality contradict your currently held beliefs... it's not reality that is wrong!"'

 

[Rick Otto]

It must first be understood, "All Authority comes from God"

Rom. 13:1
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

But Authority does not mean it will always present, or represent the Truth, but it will, always represent Power.

God makes Kings both to Rise and Fall, to fulfill His purpose in the Earth, some for the good some for the evil.

Nebuchadnezzar, Pharaoh, David, Lincoln, Hitler, Churchill, Gorbachev.
Whether we like it or not, whether we agree with it or not, even Trump has his Authority given to him by God.

Not everyone who has Authority uses it for good, Authority cannot be defined as good, and it cannot be taken for granted, that Authority will always support, or even promulgate truth.

Therefore there are those who have been given Authority which abuse that Authority, they will be judged for their actions while in Authority.

I think that statement is narrowed by context.
I think it only refers to legitimate authority, not every kind of authority.

 

[JIMINZ]

I think that statement is narrowed by context.
I think it only refers to legitimate authority, not every kind of authority.

.
I think you wrong.

 

[zephcom]

"“We should always be disposed to believe that that which appears white is really black, if the hierarchy of the Church so decides.”
―Saint Ignatius

Hierarchy uber alles?

I would call the thinking represented by that quote totally and completely wrong. And I would avoid the Church which accepted that quote with all my heart and all my soul.