What do we really know about heaven?

Robban

-----------
Supporter
Dec 27, 2009
11,311
3,057
✟626,034.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Divorced
A little from the word and a lot of seculation.
So it is said there is no pain, no tears, only joy.
We will see are family and friends, etc. Or not!
So what happens when some of them have gone the other way?
No sorrow or tears, remember?

Bill and Tom were lifelong pals, they were both football crazy,
hardly missed a match.

One day they were discussing if there was football in heaven they came up with no answer.

So one day Bill dies which makes Tom sad and time went by suddenly,
Tom heard from Bill.

"Oh hello Bill how you doing?"

"I'm fine how about you?"

"So so, been wondering if there is football in heaven, is there?"

"Good news and bad news."

"What's the good news?"

"There is football in heaven"

"What's the bad news?"

"Tomorrow you are goalkeeper."
 
Upvote 0

jayem

Naturalist
Jun 24, 2003
15,262
6,943
72
St. Louis, MO.
✟371,163.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I’m not a religious person. To me, heaven, hell, purgatory, and any notion of eternal human existence are all products of the imagination. And all driven by an immense amount of wishful thinking.

It’s impossible for me to conceive of eternal life in a state of total and absolute bliss. As I see it, what makes the good times joyous and meaningful is experiencing the hard times—pain, loss, worry, and disappointment. How can one enjoy everlasting, unremitting happiness without experiencing the opposite? Wouldn’t it get boring? Eternal joy is such an unnatural concept. It’s unfathomable to me. But I’m a naturalistic person. I see everything through the lens of our earthly existence. Which I truly believe is all we have.
 
Upvote 0

FreeinChrist

CF Advisory team
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Jul 2, 2003
144,653
17,337
USA/Belize
✟1,738,312.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
ADVISOR HAT

This thread was moved from The Kitchen Sink to General Theology which is a better forum for the topic. The Kitchen Sink is not for theology threads and is not Christian Only.
 
Upvote 0

returntosender

EL ROI
Supporter
May 30, 2020
9,420
4,304
casa grande
✟340,574.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
I’m not a religious person. To me, heaven, hell, purgatory, and any notion of eternal human existence are all products of the imagination. And all driven by an immense amount of wishful thinking.

It’s impossible for me to conceive of eternal life in a state of total and absolute bliss. As I see it, what makes the good times joyous and meaningful is experiencing the hard times—pain, loss, worry, and disappointment. How can one enjoy everlasting, unremitting happiness without experiencing the opposite? Wouldn’t it get boring? Eternal joy is such an unnatural concept. It’s unfathomable to me. But I’m a naturalistic person. I see everything through the lens of our earthly existence. Which I truly believe is all we have.
If you believe in God, his word speaks of heaven.
 
Upvote 0

friend of

A private in Gods army
Supporter
Dec 28, 2016
5,556
3,914
provincial
✟753,313.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I've contemplated this a lot. There is not a whole lot in scripture about what heaven will literally be like. I do love 1 Corinthians 2:9 and meditate on it joyously.

If we look at the nature of this world, we will observe that it is one of constant warfare. Selfishness permeates every recess. We war to obtain what we desire for ourselves, be it position, advancement, possessions, self-glorification, even food and other necessities. Killings, deceivings, factions, warrings, strivings, emulations, rivalries, dissentions, uprisings. We can scarcely imagine a world in which War is not the dominant nature. What men prize highly in this world is abomination in God's sight.

Eternal life with God is the exact opposite of this present evil world. The lowest servant among us is the greatest. I imagine a universe of collaboration and mutual love. But even this I find hard to truly comprehend as I am now here and not there. One day our blinders will be removed and that coming eternal age will be ushered in where Love will be the nature of reality and War will be banished into oblivion.
 
Upvote 0

TheWhat?

Ate all the treats
Jul 3, 2021
1,297
532
SoCal
✟31,435.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
I don't want to alarm anyone unnecessarily but it suffices to say, if we're to take the testimony of 2 corinthians 12 to be an account of a visitation to heaven, and that it is pardes, then the Jews have a legend concerning it -- among those who entered not all were prepared to "receive" it, and some to their harm.

Revelation says:

[Rev 22:14 NKJV] 14 Blessed [are] those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

But there is a caveat:

[Rom 9:30-32 NKJV] 30 ... Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because [they did] not [seek it] by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.

[Mat 19:17 NKJV] 17 ... "No one [is] good but One, [that is], God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

[Gal 3:2 NKJV] 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

[Jhn 6:63 NKJV] 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and [they] are life.

[Heb 8:10 NKJV] 10 "For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

[Psa 139:23-24 NKJV] 23 Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me, and know my anxieties; 24 And see if [there is any] wicked way in me, And lead me in the way everlasting.

We may be transformed by the grace of God on our way to heaven, but I believe it is a mistake to assume that the truth is negotiable, that it is subject to our preferences, our opinions or our authority. We have to prepare, rather, to see the truth.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,341
26,785
Pacific Northwest
✟728,115.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
If you believe in God, his word speaks of heaven.

Kind of.

The Scriptures are replete with the language of "heaven", or perhaps more accurately "the heavens" (in Hebrew it is always the plural shamayim, "heavens").

What the Scriptures don't talk about is "heaven" as a location in the afterlife that is treated as an eternal reward for the righteous.

Rather "heaven" is taken to talking about God's authority over creation. The Jewish Tabernacle, and later Temple, was understood in a sense to be God's heavenly HQ on earth. The way in which God's royal power and dominion was present in the midst of His people on earth. The Holy of Holies, in this way, functioned as the point where heaven and earth converged--the high priest entering through the veil into the Holy of Holies was stepping into the direct Presence of God, into what later Jewish writers called the Shekinah, the "Presence" or "Dwelling" of God, the reality of God's in-habitation of the world in His Presence in the Holy of Holies.

When we get to the Gospels we find Jesus proclaiming the good news of God's kingdom coming to earth. In Matthew's Gospel the Evangelist uses a slightly different construction of the same phrase, "kingdom of heaven". But the "kingdom of heaven" and "the kingdom of God" are synonymous, "heaven" is here merely another way of talking about God.

Jesus is not talking about a literal place somewhere "out there" called "heaven" or the like; He is instead talking about God's basileia, God's royal power, God-as-King. Thus the kingdom of God simply (but not shallowly) meant, in the context of the Jewish Scriptures and the general Jewish hope of redemption for Israel, the return of God as King.

What the Jewish expectation of what that looked like, however, was off the mark. Hence the Jewish expectation was often built around the hope of a great military messiah who would overthrow the Pagan oppressors and God would through that return in the great spectacular way that He once was present in Israel--in the Shekinah of the Temple.

Because even after the end of the Babylonian Exile the Jews were still a subjected people, ruled over by the foreign powers to the east in Persia, which lasted until Persia's collapse at the hands of Alexander the Great. Then ruled by foreign Greeks, first the Ptolemies and then the tyrannical Seleucids which they freed themselves from in the Maccabean War. And for a short time Judea was independent, until Rome came.

This is why we see in the Prophets the hope and anticipation that YHWH Himself would return on that "Great and Terrible Day of YHWH". That the end to Exile would come at last in a great big way, and that through the agency of the messiah all the disparate and scattered peoples of the Diaspora would be brought together, the Shekinah would come again to the Temple, and all the nations would tremble before Israel's God, ushering in peace and prosperity not only to the nation of Israel, but to all nations as a blessing to them.

The message of the Gospel is not that this Jewish expectation was all wrong. The message of the Gospel is that God has done this. But the way God has done this is radically different than what anyone expected.

YHWH did come on that "Great and Terrible Day of YHWH", with the promised Elijah figure as forerunner, St. John the Baptist. Jesus is God come down into the midst of His people. God does bring end to Exile, a new Passover, and a restoration of the Shekinah to Israel--but not in a building made of stone in Jerusalem, but in the Person of Jesus Christ and all who are united together with Him as His Church. God has, and is bringing together all the scattered people, through the going forth of the Gospel throughout the world, literally being preached in the synagogues and Diaspora communities. And the promise to Abraham and the blessing of the nations is fulfilled, as Christ is the Promised Seed of Abraham, by Whom all nations are blessed. God is drawing all nations to His Holy Mount Zion, not to the earthly Jerusalem, but the "Jerusalem that is above" as St. Paul calls it.

That's the kingdom of God, God's invasion of the world in Jesus Christ, and His ministry, His work, His Person, His own sufferings, death, and resurrection is the inauguration of that kingdom right here.

And this Jesus, having risen from the dead, and ascended to the right hand of the Father, is reigning as the King Messiah even now; the Son of Man coming into His kingdom, when He was lifted up before the Ancient of Days and given all power, authority, and everlasting kingdom. This same Jesus will return, and on that Day there will be judgment, resurrection, and the restoration of all creation. The fullness of the kingdom coming on earth, where as the Prophet Habakkuk spoke of so long ago, the knowledge of the glory of YHWH will cover the earth even as water covers the seas (Habakkuk 2:14)

And in that great marriage of heaven and earth, illustrated in the New Jerusalem descending out of the heavens upon the earth, the City of God in which there is no sorrow, no harm, no death, no sickness; in which there is no need of a temple, because God Himself shall be ever and eternally present with His people here on the earth.

So the Scriptures have things to tell us about "heaven". But what the Scriptures are saying is, frankly, very different than the usual "go to heaven when you die" language popular in the last couple centuries in the West. The biblical view is far more robust, far bigger, and far more expansive than that. It's also what, if we are paying attention, what the Creeds of the Church are telling us, what all the ancient fathers were teaching, it's what the Church from the beginning has always believed.

But so much of that has been layered on top with innovative ideas and doctrines, and the result has been a shallowing of the Christian faith, reducing Christianity very often to little more than a personal esoteric spirituality built upon moralism in which the point is to have a good afterlife by having the right religious values, opinions, or attitudes. We turn the Cross of Jesus Christ into a purely transactional move in which God is excused from having to be mean and nasty to us, because all that nastiness was transferred to Jesus instead. The Cross becomes a bartering chip to get God to stop bullying us into hell; rather than the Climax of the story of Creation, the Patriarchs, and Israel all coming into its own; and God Himself coming in, as He promised, to pick up all the broken pieces of the world, not just healing the world, but bringing all of creation into that Good New Day--New Creation-- in which life is true, abundant, and everlasting; truly world without end.

EDIT: I feel it is really important here to add an addendum to my post. I want to be clear that I am not advocating "soul sleep" or some other such view. I am not denying that, after death, we shall be consciously in the Lord's presence. And we can call that being with the Lord "going to heaven" if we like. I'm not arguing against that. Rather I am trying to point out that the "going to heaven when we die" thing is far removed from being the point of the Gospel, the point of Christianity, and the point of salvation. That interim between death and resurrection is like a waiting lobby outside of a concert hall. The lobby isn't the show itself, it's just the lobby.

Both we here in this life, and those who have already reposed in the Lord are both sharing in the same Hope and same Anticipation. In such a way both what has often been called the Church Militant (the Church on earth, facing the tribulations of the present age) and the Church Triumphant (the Church "in heaven" in the restful presence of the Lord already) are together the Church Expectant. We, with the saints "in heaven", and indeed the entire host of heaven look forward to what is yet to come.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,509
Georgia
✟899,962.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I don't want to alarm anyone unnecessarily but it suffices to say, if we're to take the testimony of 2 corinthians 12 to be an account of a visitation to heaven, and that it is pardes, then the Jews have a legend concerning it -- among those who entered not all were prepared to "receive" it, and some to their harm.

Revelation says:

[Rev 22:14 NKJV] 14 Blessed [are] those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

He was taken off in vision to heaven - to paradise - where the throne of God is according to Rev 2 and Rev 22. (Paul calls it an out-of-body experience)

"The saints keep the commandments of God and have their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
"what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
And that includes the TEN having "honor your father and mother as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2
 
Upvote 0

TheWhat?

Ate all the treats
Jul 3, 2021
1,297
532
SoCal
✟31,435.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
I don't want to alarm anyone unnecessarily but it suffices to say, if we're to take the testimony of 2 corinthians 12 to be an account of a visitation to heaven, and that it is pardes, then the Jews have a legend concerning it -- among those who entered not all were prepared to "receive" it, and some to their harm.

Revelation says:

[Rev 22:14 NKJV] 14 Blessed [are] those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

But there is a caveat:

[Rom 9:30-32 NKJV] 30 ... Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because [they did] not [seek it] by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.

[Mat 19:17 NKJV] 17 ... "No one [is] good but One, [that is], God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

[Gal 3:2 NKJV] 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

[Jhn 6:63 NKJV] 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and [they] are life.

[Heb 8:10 NKJV] 10 "For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

[Psa 139:23-24 NKJV] 23 Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me, and know my anxieties; 24 And see if [there is any] wicked way in me, And lead me in the way everlasting.

We may be transformed by the grace of God on our way to heaven, but I believe it is a mistake to assume that the truth is negotiable, that it is subject to our preferences, our opinions or our authority. We have to prepare, rather, to see the truth.

Some additional thoughts on the subject:

The Jews have a legend concerning pardes. From the Babylonian Talmud:

The rabbis taught: Four men went up into the heavenly garden, and they were: Ben Azzai and Ben Zoma, A'her and R. Aqiba. Ben Azzai gazed and died; to him the scriptural passage may be applied [Ps. cxvi. 15]: "Grievous in the eyes of the Lord is the death of his pious ones." Ben Zoma gazed and went mad; to him the scriptural passage may be applied [Prov. xxv. 16] Hast thou found honey? eat so much as is sufficient for thee, lest thou consume too much of it, and have to vomit it forth." A'her cut the plants. R. Aqiba departed in peace. A'her cut the plants; it is to him that the scriptural passage may be applied [Eccl. v. 6]: "Suffer not thy mouth to cause thy body to sin."
Not so dissimilar is the report we christians are more familiar with: the crucifixion of Jesus on the cross. Some crucified him, some ran away and hid themselves, some denied him and one confessed that there was no fault in him. To that man, was granted access into paradise (though, that's not to be taken as implying none else were granted access). I'm of the position that the parallels found between the two are not accidental.

[Rev 1:4-8 NKJV] 4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him [be] glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. 8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, [the] Beginning and [the] End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

As it pertains to the cross, Jesus says:
[Jhn 14:11 NKJV] 11 Believe Me that I [am] in the Father and the Father in Me...

I think it's important to remember the following:
[Rom 5:9-11 NKJV] 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only [that], but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

[Psa 119:11 NKJV] 11 Your word I have hidden in my heart, That I might not sin against You.

Many, who think they are righteous, will not be found to be so.

[Zec 8:17 NKJV] 17 "Let none of you think evil in your heart against your neighbor; And do not love a false oath. For all these [are things] that I hate," Says the LORD.

[Isa 66:1-4 NKJV] 1 Thus says the LORD: "Heaven [is] My throne, And earth [is] My footstool. Where [is] the house that you will build Me? And where [is] the place of My rest? 2 For all those [things] My hand has made, And all those [things] exist," Says the LORD. "But on this [one] will I look: On [him who is] poor and of a contrite spirit, And who trembles at My word. 3 "He who kills a bull [is as if] he slays a man; He who sacrifices a lamb, [as if] he breaks a dog's neck; He who offers a grain offering, [as if he offers] swine's blood; He who burns incense, [as if] he blesses an idol. Just as they have chosen their own ways, And their soul delights in their abominations, 4 So will I choose their delusions ... "

==============================

Last but not least, to those in Christ:

[Num 6:24-26 NKJV] 24 The LORD bless you and keep you; 25 The LORD make His face shine upon you, And be gracious to you; 26 The LORD lift up His countenance upon you, And give you peace.

[Psa 91:9-11 NKJV] 9 Because you have made the LORD, [who is] my refuge, [Even] the Most High, your dwelling place, 10 No evil shall befall you, Nor shall any plague come near your dwelling; 11 For He shall give His angels charge over you, To keep you in all your ways.
 
Upvote 0

returntosender

EL ROI
Supporter
May 30, 2020
9,420
4,304
casa grande
✟340,574.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
I don't get some if you. Your answers are book long.
What is it, fear of not being heard?
I don't read them if they are more then a few paragraphs long because no ones reply is that interesting/important.
I can't be the only one and the sad thing is what may have been a turning point for someone will never get there.
Short and sweet.
You all get a resounding imforamtive without reading it
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: pescador
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

rebornfree

Senior Veteran
Supporter
May 5, 2007
8,404
14,214
NW England
✟790,449.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Divorced
A little from the word and a lot of seculation.
So it is said there is no pain, no tears, only joy.
We will see are family and friends, etc. Or not!
So what happens when some of them have gone the other way?
No sorrow or tears, remember?

I don't know. It has upset me for over 50 years that there will be loved ones who are not in Heaven. I just hold onto Rev 21 v 3,4 but I'm not sure how we will cease crying about the unsaved. I guess we will see things more clearly then. Also God loves everyone (John 3 v 16) and wants them to be saved (1 Tim 2 v 3). He has given His Son for them, so if they never accept Him then I suppose a holy, loving God has to let them go and we do too. He loves them much more than we do.

That's the only answer I can come up with. :scratch: HTH but check out what the Bible says. Sometimes people have sentimental ideas about Heaven which are not Biblical and if I've written anything which isn't Biblical then ignore me. :D :oldthumbsup: But it will be good there!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Davy

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Nov 25, 2017
4,861
1,022
USA
✟267,297.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
A little from the word and a lot of seculation.
So it is said there is no pain, no tears, only joy.
We will see are family and friends, etc. Or not!
So what happens when some of them have gone the other way?
No sorrow or tears, remember?

See what Apostle Paul said in 2 Corinthians 5.

Our deceased loved ones in Christ are already there with Him.
 
Upvote 0