what do scientists think about fate and destiny

MasterYourLife

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what do scientists think about fate and destiny

if free will is an illusion

because

there is no scientific evidence for free will
Some scientists are Christian and they believe in fate and destiny.
Other scientists are atheist and they believe everything is a chemical reaction.
These are the 2 extremes among scientists.
When there is no proof, scientists use evidence to make theories. Usually the resulting theories are based on biased beliefs, of whether God exists or not.

In general however, there is no consensuses among scientists whether there is or isn't fate.
This is something that has to be proved before it can be made fact.

There is no scientific evidence for many things, because science can't explain everything.

Science is the study of the structure of the natural and physical world by observation and experiment.
Not everything can be tested and observed. Science also can't account for metaphysics (different dimensions outside of space and time) which is not testable.
As an eastern guru once said, "you can't poke the nonphysical with a physical stick."
 
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Ophiolite

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Usually the resulting theories are based on biased beliefs, of whether God exists or not.
I felt you ruined an otherwise sensible post with this piece of nonsense. Since science works on the basis of methodological naturalism then no good scientist, atheist, agnostic or theist, will be influenced by their views on God. Any scientist who is so influenced is a charlatan.
 
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MasterYourLife

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I felt you ruined an otherwise sensible post with this piece of nonsense. Since science works on the basis of methodological naturalism then no good scientist, atheist, agnostic or theist, will be influenced by their views on God. Any scientist who is so influenced is a charlatan.
That was a post-cursor point for the 2 extremes of scientific opinion.
Some of the worlds top scientists (on an given extreme), approach theories with the view that either God exists or doesn't.
This is in fact what persuaded the existence of science. Early scientists pursued science, because their basis was that if God exists, there must be order in nature and thus testable.
In areas of science where there is no proof via observation and testing, there only remains room for theories based on evidence.
A scientist that see's evidence for God, will adjust their theory towards creation. Otherwise an atheist will adjust towards a random unintelligent process.
The fact they are scientists does not mean they won't have opinions, or don't have a right to disagree on theories. At some point they become philosophers.
 
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pitabread

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When there is no proof, scientists use evidence to make theories. Usually the resulting theories are based on biased beliefs, of whether God exists or not.

Uh... no.

The construction of scientific theories has nothing to do with the question of God's existence. Scientific theories are simply well-supported, working explanations for observable phenomena regardless of one's personal beliefs.
 
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MasterYourLife

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Uh... no.

The construction of scientific theories has nothing to do with the question of God's existence. Scientific theories are simply well-supported, working explanations for observable phenomena.
I'll refer you to my last comment. Again, that statement was a post-cursor point to scientific extremes.
 
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pitabread

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A scientist that see's evidence for God, will adjust their theory towards creation.

Not really, since the scientific method cannot be used to test the supernatural.

This is why, for example, there is no scientific theory for creation. It's not something that could be scientifically tested and validated.

Some scientists may have a belief in supernatural creation or lack thereof, but that is again separate from any scientific theory of the same.
 
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pitabread

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I'll refer you to my last comment. Again, that statement was a post-cursor point to scientific extremes.

I saw that, but I think there is a misunderstanding of what the scientific method entails and what scientific theories are.
 
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MasterYourLife

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I saw that, but I think there is a misunderstanding of what the scientific method entails and what scientific theories are.
I understand how scientific theories are constructed.
However at the points where science and philosophy of science converge, there is flexibility in forming of theories. This isn't to say the theories are necessarily scientific. However, they are still let's say, "opinionated" theories formed by scientists.
 
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pitabread

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I understand how scientific theories are constructed.
However at the points where science and philosophy of science converge, there is flexibility in forming of theories. This isn't to say the theories are necessarily scientific. However, they are still let's say, "opinionated" theories formed by scientists.

Using the terms opinions or beliefs is more appropriate then. The term theory has specific meaning in the context of science.

Conflating the two things just confuses the discussion.
 
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essentialsaltes

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There have been interesting experiments that seem to show that processes in the brain are hard at work a half second before we are consciously aware of a 'spontaneous decision' to act.

The field [of the scientific study of free will] remains highly controversial. The significance of findings, their meaning, and what conclusions may be drawn from them is a matter of intense debate. The precise role of consciousness in decision making and how that role may differ across types of decisions remains unclear.

Which is to say, there is no scientific consensus on the matter, so there is no easy answer to the question "What do scientists think about free will/fate/destiny?"
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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what do scientists think about fate and destiny

if scientists think free will is an illusion

because

scientists say there is no scientific evidence for free will
I guess it depends on how you define free will, and so what evidence could support it.

The popular libertarian (dualist) definition I've heard from religious believers, that free will is the ability to make willed choices that are neither random nor determined, seems logically incoherent. I would suspect that most in the 'hard' sciences would find that difficult to swallow - although we humans are very good at compartmentalising.

I know that plenty of scientists (and philosophers) who think the world is deterministic and take a compatibilist approach, i.e. they propose a definition of free will that is compatible with determinism. Whether you think this is effectively saying that free will is an illusion depends on whether or not you can accept the definition or explanation of free will they provide - or how you define 'illusion' in this context; i.e. is it something that is not quite what it appears to be, or is it something that isn't really there at all?

My personal view is that the concept of free will, shorn of any moral or religious baggage, derives from our experience of making unconstrained and uncoerced choices according to our will (wants, desires, goals, preferences, etc.), and is therefore subjective. This means it can be compatible with determinism, because, under determinism, our will is deterministic. You could call it 'Experiential Compatibilism'; I think it's a compelling illusion.

The problem of moral responsibility typically clouds compatibilist positions, as it's hard to see how you can be morally responsible for determined actions. Some compatibilists say they have interpretations that allow moral responsibility - Dennet, for example, seems to have a social utilitarian view of it, i.e. that the concept of moral responsibility has an important social role, so we should employ it regardless; I think this is associated with the idea that culture and society are higher-level, emergent phenomena, so it's reasonable for them to have behavioural rules that are also emergent, i.e. are not found in the individual constituent elements (people); the problem here is that these rules are deemed to apply to the constituent elements... apologies to Dennett if I missed the mark - he's rather opaque at times.

Fate and destiny are a step further, implying prescribed outcomes rather than simple determinism. I'd be surprised if many scientists would admit to a serious belief in fate or destiny.
 
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the iconoclast

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@Ophiolite

Hey hey sir :)

- ill try to speak clearly and directly, instead of the affected hillbilly, cutesy waffle favour, i cant promise i wont make such self contradictory remarks but dont worry. As you have said in the past you "have a sound education, rank high in IQ tests (which at least demonstrates an aptitude for IQ tests.) and have several decades of engineering and business experience."

I couldnt help noticing your keen interest of me in recent times. How about we try something out here. :)

Ive been checking out your history. I think what best suits your 'belief' system - please forgive this terminology and please make me aware of a better word. :)

Your position - that a man shall not say he knows or believes that which he has no scientific grounds for professing to know or believe.

Please correct me if im wrong?

Now i may be getting into personal ground here, please excuse me if you find this offensive and we will call it quits.

I noticed this statement you have made.

Ophiolite- "My wife says I sat in front of the TV last night for three hours and didn't move".

Do you believe that your wife loves you? If it is not belief then what would you call it?

Cheers and please do not take offense, im curious as to how you will reply.
 
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Ophiolite

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Your position - that a man shall not say he knows or believes that which he has no scientific grounds for professing to know or believe.

Please correct me if im wrong?
You are wrong.

An individual lacks integrity* if the following conditions are met:
1. They have a definitive opinion upon a scientific matter.
2. They lack the knowledge, education or background to have an informed opinion on this matter.
3. There is no significant evidence in support of their opinion.
4. They have been made aware of the strong contrary scientific consensus .
5. They insist upon publicly broadcasting their opinion.

*In fairness, it could be that they are just not all that bright, or well educated. Their integrity might be intact.

I noticed this statement you have made.

Ophiolite- "My wife says I sat in front of the TV last night for three hours and didn't move".

Do you believe that your wife loves you? If it is not belief then what would you call it?
You do realise that statement was made to ridicule an assertion that time was caused by motion? I have zero idea of why you introduced it, since it seems completely disconnected from your following question. Given that the statement was a witticism it is not required to be "true".

I don't have beliefs, except in the colloquial sense. I have expectations of consequences. I expect that if I don't finish this now I shall miss the start of the BBC broadcast on the World Athletic Championships. Such expectations frequently work out, so it is a matter of pragmatism to make use of them.
 
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Belk

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public hermit

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holo

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Bereitschaftspotential and the Libet studies have been behind the idea that science shows we have no free will and our conscious decisions are determined (even though they don't seem so determined to us). However, that has recently come under scrutiny.

A Famous Argument Against Free Will Has Been Debunked
Actually, that doesn't debunk arguments against free will, because whether or not we have free will doesn't depend on when, or how fast, we become aware of our choices. Even if we're conscious of our choice in the very same instant we make it, doesn't mean it's free - in other words that the choice wasn't the only possible outcome of the circumstances and conditions which gave rise to it.
 
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public hermit

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Actually, that doesn't debunk arguments against free will, because whether or not we have free will doesn't depend on when, or how fast, we become aware of our choices. Even if we're conscious of our choice in the very same instant we make it, doesn't mean it's free - in other words that the choice wasn't the only possible outcome of the circumstances and conditions which gave rise to it.

Philosophically, I agree with what you're saying. The Libet studies were used as empirical evidence that our brains determined choices prior to our conscious awareness of choosing. Thus, no free will (presumably). So, this supposed empirical evidence against free will has been put into question. But the debate over the metaphysical reality of free will is still wide open, I would say.
 
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the iconoclast

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You are wrong.


An individual lacks integrity* if the following conditions are met:

Hey hey :)

I want to examine your last post in more detail but first i would like to address the below agnostic statement - by Thomas Henry Huxley - with more clarity and in relation to your belief system.

"that a man shall not say he knows or believes that which he has no scientific grounds for professing to know or believe."

Could you please indulge me as to what is specifically wrong here that you wont commit to?

Would your position be the below?

"that a man shall not say he knows or believes that which has no quality of being honest or having strong moral principles for professing to know or believe."

How would you change the original statement to properly reflect your views and to better reflect how integrity plays into your belief system?

Cheers
 
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