What Do Feminists Want From Relationships?

[JaneFW]

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[Created2Write]

This could totally just be me and my quirkiness...lol...I love having things done for me because I'm a girl. And not because I think I'm better than anyone(cause I don't and I'm not), but because I just enjoy it. I like going out to eat and getting a drink for half price or for free. I like having doors opened for me. I like being referred to as "Ma'am" or "Miss". Before I was married I enjoyed asking for help to reach something above me(I'm short) and seeing four guys jump up and assist. I like waking up and being surprised with a shopping spree from my hubby. (Course, that's not really cause of my gender...) *shrug* I like being a girl, and I like that others appreciate that I am a girl. It's not that I'm incapable...it's not that I'm superior.

Maybe I'm just weird. lol.

 

[FaithPrevails]

Honestly, if the door is held for me, I rarely think it's because I'm a woman. I think it's because I'm carrying/walking with a small child, because the person is polite, because they're trying to be helpful, because they got to the door first and I was right behind them, because I'm playing with my phone and not paying attention, because I'm going out when they're coming in, because I'm going in when they're going out... But never because I'm a woman and, therefore, the door just gets held for me. Maybe it's because I hold doors open for people who are going out when I go in (and vice versa) or if they're close behind me and I reach the door first, or if there's some obvious reason to hold the door for them. I do it for men or women and I genuinely didn't think until this conversation that there is an expectation that the door should be held for me or that people hold doors just because I'm a woman. And I truly never, ever thought that the person who held the door does it to make a statement of dominance or ownership or viewing me as an object.

Same here.

Though, quite truthfully, I'd love to meet the person who thinks holding a door gets them an in to a woman's panties. I think that'd be hilarious.

 

[FaithPrevails]

This could totally just be me and my quirkiness...lol...I love having things done for me because I'm a girl. And not because I think I'm better than anyone(cause I don't and I'm not), but because I just enjoy it. I like going out to eat and getting a drink for half price or for free. I like having doors opened for me. I like being referred to as "Ma'am" or "Miss". Before I was married I enjoyed asking for help to reach something above me(I'm short) and seeing four guys jump up and assist. I like waking up and being surprised with a shopping spree from my hubby. (Course, that's not really cause of my gender...) *shrug* I like being a girl, and I like that others appreciate that I am a girl. It's not that I'm incapable...it's not that I'm superior.

Maybe I'm just weird. lol.

Well, the fact of the matter is that we are different. Physically, emotionally...very different than men. I don't mind having those differences acknowledged, as long as it is done in a respectful and honoring way (like chaz said). I have been on the receiving end of the "oh, you're just a pathetic woman who can't function without someone coming to your rescue" and it was extremely frustrating.

But, in all honesty...that was one guy out of many that I have worked with, gone to school with, dated, etc. Guys like that are rare, IMO. But, as they say - one bad apple spoils the barrel.

 

[JaneFW]

This could totally just be me and my quirkiness...lol...I love having things done for me because I'm a girl. And not because I think I'm better than anyone(cause I don't and I'm not), but because I just enjoy it. I like going out to eat and getting a drink for half price or for free. I like having doors opened for me. I like being referred to as "Ma'am" or "Miss". Before I was married I enjoyed asking for help to reach something above me(I'm short) and seeing four guys jump up and assist. I like waking up and being surprised with a shopping spree from my hubby. (Course, that's not really cause of my gender...) *shrug* I like being a girl, and I like that others appreciate that I am a girl. It's not that I'm incapable...it's not that I'm superior.

Maybe I'm just weird. lol.

Other women can also enjoy being a girl without wanting to embrace all the "girly" things. It doesn't mean that a woman hates being a woman because she doesn't like pink or fluffy bunnies or whatever. I once read it summed up perfectly in a Jilly Cooper novel when a female character is described as the kind of person who asks whether someone can carry this terribly heavy matchbox for her. In case you don't know what a matchbox is, it's a very small, square box with matches. I'm not being sarcastic, I just don't even know if they still sell matches in matchboxes.

I don't want anyone to jump to their feet for me. I'm not the president and I don't demand respect or for people to stand on ceremony for me. I like everything relaxed, on the level, and nobody working too hard to show their manliness/femininity to each other. At the end of the day, the race is human above and beyond everything else such as gender or race. I would rather we were all humans together instead of this one has to do this to prove him/herself and this one has to do this to get attention.

BTW, I'm also short - five foot exactly - and people are always getting things for me, but it has nothing to do with being a female, just the fact that I'm too short to reach, and if someone else can reach, it would just be rude for them not to pass it down.

 

[Created2Write]

That is true Faith. I haven't met anyone like that, so it's a bit difficult for me to grasp I guess.

 

[Created2Write]

I have nothing against women who are different than I am. I just happen to fall into certain categories. My MIL is different from me as well, and sees things a lot different than I do. She's an incredibly tough, independent, married woman who could care less if a man opened the door for her. And she's one of my favorite people in the world. I'm not implying that other women are somehow less feminine/don't appreciate being a woman if they differ from me. I just happen to be a very fairy-tale/romantic/dreamer/traditional kind of person.

I was just offering a different perspective to the conversation. Nothing more.

 

[JaneFW]

Feminists say they want more equality. I'd like a picture of this. For example, in a world of this feminist equality how exactly do you:

1. Date. How do you ask someone out? How do you know when it is okay to be flirtatious? How do you express attraction? How do you do these things without it being sexual harassment?

2. Have children. Are children really just the woman's? What do they expect from men when it comes to raising children?

3. Expect to resolve differences and disagreements in a way that is fair for both parties in a marriage?

You see these questions are important. They cannot just be determined on an individual basis. Not when there can be serious legal consequences. It's not enough to determine what is wrong, we also have to know what is good.

McScribe, did you ever find out what feminists want from a relationship?

 

[WolfGate]

And...from what I'm understanding....that's the SAME attitude behind the idea that women CAN open their own doors...that they don't want to be thought of as "different"....isn't that what it takes for "equality".

That doesn't mean...as Cons suggested....that courtesy gets thrown out the window. Everyone SHOULD have an "after you" mentality....NO ONE should insist on the "right of way". Remember the Biblical account of the man that sat at the head of the table....only to be asked to please move? As Christians.....as a whole.....maybe we should be spotted in the general public as the ones that still do offer common courtesy....but, not bull-dozing people out of the way to do it (because....obviously...there is nothing courteous about that.). IOW....we shouldn't be running up to elderly women....grabbing their arm to walk them across the street. When you get bopped in the head by her purse....don't be too surprised or blame her for being offended. SHE gets to choose who grabs her arm.

No, I don't think so. We should be striving for "equality" (a good thing) while recognizing that we are all "different". Each person is different, people from various cultures are different, genders are different - and that has no impact on the truth that all should have equal opportunity, respect, etc. regardless of our differences.

The problem comes when people use differences to deny rights or opportunities to others.

Different problems arise when people start trying to pursue "equality" by denying differences.

 

[Created2Write]

No, I don't think so. We should be striving for "equality" (a good thing) while recognizing that we are all "different". Each person is different, people from various cultures are different, genders are different - and that has no impact on the truth that all should have equal opportunity, respect, etc. regardless of our differences.

The problem comes when people use differences to deny rights or opportunities to others.

Different problems arise when people start trying to pursue "equality" by denying differences.

I totally agree. Very good post Wolf.

 

[mkgal1]

No, I don't think so. We should be striving for "equality" (a good thing) while recognizing that we are all "different". Each person is different, people from various cultures are different, genders are different - and that has no impact on the truth that all should have equal opportunity, respect, etc. regardless of our differences.

The problem comes when people use differences to deny rights or opportunities to others.

Different problems arise when people start trying to pursue "equality" by denying differences.

Well...yes, that goes back to what I was saying earlier....that each person (the ones that are on the receiving end of the courtesy) gets to decide what exactly "courtesy" is.

By denying rights of others....do you mean like affirmative action type regulations....and how that denies rights to others? I don't follow.

 

[JaneFW]

Different problems arise when people start trying to pursue "equality" by denying differences.

So, do you think that the civil rights movement was a mistake? I mean, African Americans did deny there were any differences between themselves and white people. So would anyone else, I hope. That's not a trap OR an accusation, I'm just curious.

 

[WolfGate]

So, do you think that the civil rights movement was a mistake? I mean, African Americans did deny there were any differences between themselves and white people. So would anyone else, I hope. That's not a trap OR an accusation, I'm just curious.

Of course not. People were using differences to deny equality.

Need to clarify one point. There is a difference in African Americans and white people. The color of the skin. That is what I was referencing in the sentence above. A difference that is irrelevant with regards to equality, but was not treated as such.

 

[mkgal1]

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[WolfGate]

Well...yes, that goes back to what I was saying earlier....that each person (the ones that are on the receiving end of the courtesy) gets to decide what exactly "courtesy" is.

By denying rights of others....do you mean like affirmative action type regulations....and how that denies rights to others? I don't follow.

Using differences to deny rights of others. By that I mean they use that someone is of a different race, skin color, gender, etc. to deny them equal rights. Forget politics and implementation - I'm talking moral concept here.

At the same time, I feel it is a mistake to try to achieve equal rights by claiming that must be sameness. We can acknowledge differences without disavowing equality.

 

[Created2Write]

Using differences to deny rights of others. By that I mean they use that someone is of a different race, skin color, gender, etc. to deny them equal rights. Forget politics and implementation - I'm talking moral concept here.

At the same time, I feel it is a mistake to try to achieve equal rights by claiming that must be sameness. We can acknowledge differences without disavowing equality.

Once again, very well said Wolf.

 

[mkgal1]

Using differences to deny rights of others. By that I mean they use that someone is of a different race, skin color, gender, etc. to deny them equal rights. Forget politics and implementation - I'm talking moral concept here.

At the same time, I feel it is a mistake to try to achieve equal rights by claiming that must be sameness. We can acknowledge differences without disavowing equality.

Okay....I think I'm picking up what you're laying down .

It threw me for a minute when you said the civil rights movement was about coming against USING differences to deny equality. I honestly don't SEE a difference between races (thankfully)...it doesn't make a difference any more than if someone has blue eyes as opposed to green.........and I interpreted what you said to be the opposite.

As Jane has mentioned....we are one race---the human race. In that, we are all the same. If we're going to begin to see differences...then we have to see ALL the differences and separate people out as individuals....otherwise....we going to have to come up with categories and sub-categories...and it gets too complicated. IMO...when we are entering into someone else's life (having interaction with them)...then, the individual choices and opinions come into play. It's arrogant to foist our opinions onto another person...and then tell them....."well....THAT is the right thing." They get a voice in the matter too.

 

[JaneFW]

As Jane has mentioned....we are one race---the human race. In that, we are all the same. If we're going to begin to see differences...then we have to see ALL the differences and separate people out as individuals....otherwise....we going to have to come up with categories and sub-categories...and it gets too complicated. IMO...when we are entering into someone else's life (having interaction with them)...then, the individual choices and opinions come into play. It's arrogant to foist our opinions onto another person...and then tell them....."well....THAT is the right thing." They get a voice in the matter too.

Yes, that scares me - differences and categories, because it soon becomes one category being better than another, and then it's straight on to Darwinism. I believe we are all equal.

 

[mkgal1]

Uh oh.....we're getting close to proving Godwin correct..

 

[Created2Write]

I'm not really sure how "categories" suddenly means lifting one group of people above another....I think that's an unnecessary and extreme assumption. IMO, no matter what we do there will always be those who believe themselves to be better, whether on an individual basis or a group basis. Equality, imo, doesn't mean everybody has to be exactly the same. And, unless we force people to be exactly the same, there will always be categories and sub-categories. Learning to accept those categories and sub-categories is, imo, the best way to achieve equality because it allows people to be who they are as individuals, as well as in groups.

I could be misunderstanding though...