What Do Feminists Want From Relationships?

[FaithPrevails]

But the guys did/does exist, and the attitude still exists, and that's my point. I don't care whether they got closed down or not, that was their intent.

Abstaining or not abstaining is not the issue here. I just find that comment repulsive.

Well, I seem to offend you a lot, don't I? You don't have to agree with me or my POV, but it would be nice if you would stop bashing it. I'm simply trying to have a civil conversation.

I never disagreed with the rest of what you said and I think guys like that are deplorable. But, I choose to discuss it with a light attitude - being offended by them/their attitude isn't going to make them change and all it would do is make me fester about something I have no reason to fester about. *shrug*

 

[FaithPrevails]

Yeah, most guys who are out for just sex realize that they can get that much quicker and with less hassle with a girl from a bar, as opposed to a girl they know and have to deal with later.

Yeah - my friends and I used to have a running joke about how many dates it would take for a guy to fall off the face of the earth.

 

[JaneFW]

Smilies are helpful when making jokes in a forum like this. In a conversation where there have already been plenty of negative implications about men I'd even say they are required if you don't want it to be taken the way I did.

Chaz, I hate smilies. I really do. Just think of it this way - the more extreme something I write seems to be, the more I'm usually cracking up as I write it. That's why I keep my office door closed.

Edited to add - I don't mean I'm being cynical and just winding people up, I just mean that I have no ill will, no hatred, and most of the time I'm at least *amused* when I'm reading and writing.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

But the guys did/does exist, and the attitude still exists, and that's my point. I don't care whether they got closed down or not, that was their intent.

Abstaining or not abstaining is not the issue here. I just find that comment repulsive.

Meh. Guys like that do, did, and always will exist if women let men pay for dinner or not. I stand by my belief that just because they pay doesn't mean I'm required to return the favor sexually and I won't simply because they paid for a few dinners. In the end, last laugh is on them, they are out the money for nothing and I still got a dinner out.

 

[JaneFW]

Well, I seem to offend you a lot, don't I? You don't have to agree with me or my POV, but it would be nice if you would stop bashing it. I'm simply trying to have a civil conversation.

I never disagreed with the rest of what you said and I think guys like that are deplorable. But, I choose to discuss it with a light attitude - being offended by them/their attitude isn't going to make them change and all it would do is make me fester about something I have no reason to fester about. *shrug*

You see civility, I see barbed comments. Oh well. Tell you what - I'll just strive to bounce my eyes right on by. That should work.

 

[mkgal1]

I think handicapped/wheelchair-bound people fall into a category of their own when it comes to this type of thing, though. It is more acceptable to ask them first, IMO, b/c it shouldn't be automatically assumed that they CAN'T do it. It assumes they cannot function independently - which is a little different than just extending a courtesy.

But, that is just my point....THEY don't want to be in a category of their own....neither do most women. EVERYONE should be treated with the same kindness.

 

[FaithPrevails]

But, that is just my point....THEY don't want to be in a category of their own....neither do most women. EVERYONE should be treated with the same kindness.

When I say a category of their own - I'm talking about their [sometimes] limited physical ability to do something. I have worked extensively with people with disabilities - I am well aware that they don't want to be thought of as "different" or incapable. But, the fact remains that sometimes they are and that needs to be taken into consideration.

 

[Romanseight2005]

Meh. Guys like that do, did, and always will exist if women let men pay for dinner or not. I stand by my belief that just because they pay doesn't mean I'm required to return the favor sexually and I won't simply because they paid for a few dinners. In the end, last laugh is on them, they are out the money for nothing and I still got a dinner out.

I totally agree. The point was that while those niceties have nothing at all to do with objectifying women, and should have no bearing in the matter at all, the original feminists who made those statements, I believe were doing so, because of the tit for tat mentality. That by no means makes the tit for tat valid, it just menas that they were saying that if the majority held the tit for tat view, they wanted no part in it.

 

[mkgal1]

Smilies are helpful when making jokes in a forum like this. In a conversation where there have already been plenty of negative implications about men I'd even say they are required if you don't want it to be taken the way I did.

Why isn't the onus on the readers to not assume the worst about what she said? Seems that is the commonly accepted standard for everything else...that others NOT assume the worst. Wouldn't that apply here, then?

 

[FaithPrevails]

Can we please stay on-topic...which is not smilies or addressing the poster instead of the post?

 

[Created2Write]

I definitely agree with Faith and Wolf and, I have to be honest here...I don't understand the objections at all. If some women aren't comfortable with a man holding the door open for them, then more power to 'em. I, personally, love it. Especially when other women in restaurants look at DH with pleading eyes when he pulls out my chair for me.



But seriously...personal preference is totally fine. I don't get the....very strong objections over the last few pages. If "personal preference" is being so strongly recommended, why can't it be accepted that there are some of us females who thoroughly enjoy having the door opened for them(either by their husbands or by other people) and would like it to continue? I see nothing wrong with a woman opening the door herself, if that's what she prefers. But I can't count how many times I've had doors slammed in my face, when I was taught to wait for a guy to open the door for me. Even my husband was nervous the first time he opened the door for me, cause he's been chewed out about it before. I've even had a woman tell me and one of my ex boyfriends as we were leaving a restaurant, "She has two hands. She can open the door herself, so don't insult her by being her manservant."

To each their own. I don't think any man should feel bad for doing something that really is considered a polite gesture, nor do I think any woman should be forced to submit to a gesture she is uncomfortable with. I'm not threatened by those women, they shouldn't be threatened by me. All I ask is that they not attack my personal preference, since I don't attack theirs.

 

[Created2Write]

Can we please stay on-topic...which is not smilies or addressing the poster instead of the post?

Here here.

 

[mkgal1]

When I say a category of their own - I'm talking about their [sometimes] limited physical ability to do something. I have worked extensively with people with disabilities - I am well aware that they don't want to be thought of as "different" or incapable. But, the fact remains that sometimes they are and that needs to be taken into consideration.

And...from what I'm understanding....that's the SAME attitude behind the idea that women CAN open their own doors...that they don't want to be thought of as "different"....isn't that what it takes for "equality".

That doesn't mean...as Cons suggested....that courtesy gets thrown out the window. Everyone SHOULD have an "after you" mentality....NO ONE should insist on the "right of way". Remember the Biblical account of the man that sat at the head of the table....only to be asked to please move? As Christians.....as a whole.....maybe we should be spotted in the general public as the ones that still do offer common courtesy....but, not bull-dozing people out of the way to do it (because....obviously...there is nothing courteous about that.). IOW....we shouldn't be running up to elderly women....grabbing their arm to walk them across the street. When you get bopped in the head by her purse....don't be too surprised or blame her for being offended. SHE gets to choose who grabs her arm.

 

[Created2Write]

I don't really see having a door opened for me as a way of saying that I'm "different". Honestly, I just see is as nothing more than a respectful, "Let me get the door for you" kind of offer. Maybe it's just me though.

 

[FaithPrevails]

And...from what I'm understanding....that's the SAME attitude behind the idea that women CAN open their own doors...that they don't want to be thought of as "different"....isn't that what it takes for "equality".

That doesn't mean...as Cons suggested....that courtesy gets thrown out the window. Everyone SHOULD have an "after you" mentality....NO ONE should insist on the "right of way". Remember the Biblical account of the man that sat at the head of the table....only to be asked to please move? As Christians.....as a whole.....maybe we should be spotted in the general public as the ones that still do offer common courtesy....but, not bull-dozing people out of the way to do it (because....obviously...there is nothing courteous about that.). IOW....we shouldn't be running up to elderly women....grabbing their arm to walk them across the street. When you get bopped in the head by her purse....don't be too surprised or blame her for being offended. SHE gets to choose who grabs her arm.

RE: the bolded...yes, of course...and that is how I take the attitude presented when it's concerning women. Whereas, people with disabilities are often viewed as "they can't do it". I don't know anyone who thinks that a woman "can't" open her own door, or reach things on shelves in a store...or whatever other scenario might present a challenge for someone with disabilities. It's apples and oranges to compare women with disabled people, IMO.

 

[FaithPrevails]

I don't really see having a door opened for me as a way of saying that I'm "different". Honestly, I just see is as nothing more than a respectful, "Let me get the door for you" kind of offer. Maybe it's just me though.

*nods*

 

[JaneFW]

Can we please stay on-topic...which is not smilies or addressing the poster instead of the post?

LOL, the subject is "what do feminists want from relationships" - nothing to do with opening doors, so this current discussion is also inappropriate.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

I don't really see having a door opened for me as a way of saying that I'm "different". Honestly, I just see is as nothing more than a respectful, "Let me get the door for you" kind of offer. Maybe it's just me though.

Honestly, if the door is held for me, I rarely think it's because I'm a woman. I think it's because I'm carrying/walking with a small child, because the person is polite, because they're trying to be helpful, because they got to the door first and I was right behind them, because I'm playing with my phone and not paying attention, because I'm going out when they're coming in, because I'm going in when they're going out... But never because I'm a woman and, therefore, the door just gets held for me. Maybe it's because I hold doors open for people who are going out when I go in (and vice versa) or if they're close behind me and I reach the door first, or if there's some obvious reason to hold the door for them. I do it for men or women and I genuinely didn't think until this conversation that there is an expectation that the door should be held for me or that people hold doors just because I'm a woman. And I truly never, ever thought that the person who held the door does it to make a statement of dominance or ownership or viewing me as an object.

Though, quite truthfully, I'd love to meet the person who thinks holding a door gets them an in to a woman's panties. I think that'd be hilarious.

 

[FaithPrevails]

LOL, the subject is "what do feminists want from relationships" - nothing to do with opening doors, so this current discussion is also inappropriate.

It was brought up as an example of something that feminists use as an example of things they don't want from a relationship, so it seems pretty on-topic to me.

 

[JaneFW]

Again, it comes back to, whether relationships or anything else real life, I don't want to be treated any differently because I'm a female. I don't want anyone giving me leeway because I'm a female, or making excuses "I'm just a girl". Yuck.