What do Christians think of Atheists?

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JoeP222w

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Could you be more specific?

More than 200 prophecies fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Many found in the book of Isaiah.

Either way, you aren't the measure of reality and truth, either, which takes us back to what I said.

I never said I was the standard of reality and truth. Please read carefully what I wrote and please don't create Straw Man fallacies.
 
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Cearbhall

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More than 200 prophecies fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Many found in the book of Isaiah.
Once again, please specify.
I never said I was the standard of reality and truth. Please read carefully what I wrote and please don't create Straw Man fallacies.
Right back at you, since I never said that you said it. I'm only pointing out why you can't expect people to accept without question that everything you believe is correct.

We are all fully-fledged human beings just like you who have reasons for our own beliefs and conclusions. We have developed our convictions over a lifetime, just like you. We are not simply in rebellion or denial. You cannot just present ideas and expect everyone to convert to them.
 
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JoeP222w

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Jesus birth prophesied:

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Jesus' birth fulfilled:

Luke 2:8-21 And in the same region there were shepherds out in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. (9) And an angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were filled with great fear. (10) And the angel said to them, "Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. (11) For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. (12) And this will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in swaddling cloths and lying in a manger." (13) And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying, (14) "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among those with whom he is pleased!" (15) When the angels went away from them into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, "Let us go over to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has made known to us." (16) And they went with haste and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby lying in a manger. (17) And when they saw it, they made known the saying that had been told them concerning this child. (18) And all who heard it wondered at what the shepherds told them. (19) But Mary treasured up all these things, pondering them in her heart. (20) And the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all they had heard and seen, as it had been told them. (21) And at the end of eight days, when he was circumcised, he was called Jesus, the name given by the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
 
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Cearbhall

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Jesus birth prophesied:

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Yes, and then some people decided that Yeshua of Nazareth was this person, including the authors of Luke. So?
 
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keith99

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Jesus birth prophesied:

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Jesus' birth fulfilled:

Luke 2:8-21 And in the same region there were shepherds out in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. (9) And an angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were filled with great fear. (10) And the angel said to them, "Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. (11) For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. (12) And this will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in swaddling cloths and lying in a manger." (13) And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying, (14) "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among those with whom he is pleased!" (15) When the angels went away from them into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, "Let us go over to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has made known to us." (16) And they went with haste and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby lying in a manger. (17) And when they saw it, they made known the saying that had been told them concerning this child. (18) And all who heard it wondered at what the shepherds told them. (19) But Mary treasured up all these things, pondering them in her heart. (20) And the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all they had heard and seen, as it had been told them. (21) And at the end of eight days, when he was circumcised, he was called Jesus, the name given by the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

And just when was 'The government on his shoulder'? That a prophecy gives a few names by which a future messiah will be called and that the followers of a claimed messiah knowing full well about the prophecy will use those names to describe him is rather predictable. So the only thing of note in the claim is that 'the government will be upon his shoulder'. I do not recall anything that fits that claim. My bet is if you are able to come up with something it will be so twisted that it also is all but meaningless. I'll wait for an answer before I empty the second barrel.
 
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JoeP222w

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And just when was 'The government on his shoulder'? That a prophecy gives a few names by which a future messiah will be called and that the followers of a claimed messiah knowing full well about the prophecy will use those names to describe him is rather predictable. So the only thing of note in the claim is that 'the government will be upon his shoulder'. I do not recall anything that fits that claim. My bet is if you are able to come up with something it will be so twisted that it also is all but meaningless. I'll wait for an answer before I empty the second barrel.

Jesus sovereignly rules from Heaven. It was not referring to human government.
 
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Gene2memE

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Jesus birth prophesied:

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Jesus' birth fulfilled:

Luke 2:8-21 And in the same region there were shepherds out in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. (9) And an angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were filled with great fear. (10) And the angel said to them, "Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. (11) For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. (12) And this will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in swaddling cloths and lying in a manger." (13) And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying, (14) "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among those with whom he is pleased!" (15) When the angels went away from them into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, "Let us go over to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has made known to us." (16) And they went with haste and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby lying in a manger. (17) And when they saw it, they made known the saying that had been told them concerning this child. (18) And all who heard it wondered at what the shepherds told them. (19) But Mary treasured up all these things, pondering them in her heart. (20) And the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all they had heard and seen, as it had been told them. (21) And at the end of eight days, when he was circumcised, he was called Jesus, the name given by the angel before he was conceived in the womb.


Aren't these post-dictions, rather than prophesy?

"Luke" was writing circa 50 to 65 years after the death of Jesus.
 
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SolomonVII

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Aren't these post-dictions, rather than prophesy?

"Luke" was writing circa 50 to 65 years after the death of Jesus.
I took the poster to be referring to the Isaiah passage as the prophecy, and the Luke passage to give the Christian understanding of how that prophecy was fulfilled.
 
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keith99

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And you know this how?

Because it cannot be forced to fit human government, so it must be forced into something else. My interlineal OT is not detailed enough on that. But in checking I read a few verses farther. Isiah gets specific and I do not recall those specifics being fulfilled. Specifically from 9:7

He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
 
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Allandavid

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Isaiah was the prophesy. Luke was the fulfillment.

Nonsense. Look how easily that can be done...

A week before the lottery, I tell you that I know what the winning numbers will be. The day after the lottery I say to you " Yep, those are the numbers I was thinking of...!"

In other words, it isn't difficult to write in a statement after the fact, in order to 'fulfil' a prophesy...
 
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keith99

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Nonsense. Look how easily that can be done...

A week before the lottery, I tell you that I know what the winning numbers will be. The day after the lottery I say to you " Yep, those are the numbers I was thinking of...!"

In other words, it isn't difficult to write in a statement after the fact, in order to 'fulfil' a prophesy...

Actually in the Christian case it is more like they say one of teh numbers will be below 10 and then as long as that is met (including 2 or more being below 10) they treat it as if they had called all the numbers.
 
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JoeP222w

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Nonsense. Look how easily that can be done...

A week before the lottery, I tell you that I know what the winning numbers will be. The day after the lottery I say to you " Yep, those are the numbers I was thinking of...!"

In other words, it isn't difficult to write in a statement after the fact, in order to 'fulfil' a prophesy...

That is not how prophesy in the Bible works.

Isaiah was written long before Luke was written. The Jews of the time knew of the writing of Isaiah. So they knew of the prophesy of the Messiah to come. If they had eyes to see they saw it fulfilled at the time that Luke wrote about. Additionally, prophesy is far more than just telling the future. Prophesy includes proclaiming the word of God.
 
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Allandavid

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That is not how prophesy in the Bible works.

Prophesy hasn't been shown to 'work', period.

Isaiah was written long before Luke was written.

No points for stating the bleeding obvious...

The Jews of the time knew of the writing of Isaiah.

Which is a point against your argument. By knowing about the prophesy in advance, they could shape their story to fit it...

So they knew of the prophesy of the Messiah to come. If they had eyes to see they saw it fulfilled at the time that Luke wrote about.

That's what they claim...just like me claiming, after the event, that I knew what the lottery numbers would be...

Additionally, prophesy is far more than just telling the future. Prophesy includes proclaiming the word of God.

Irrelevant.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Specifically, I'm curious about what you think the reasons are that an atheist doesn't believe in god? I've been on the forum here for quite some time...and I frequently come across those who hold all sorts of beliefs about why atheists don't believe in god. By far, the rarest belief I've seen is that atheists genuinely don't believe for a lack of evidence...which is surprising since that's by far the most common explanation I've seen atheists give for their lack of a god-belief.

I've seen claims that atheists are in denial of god because they don't want some "authority figure" over them. Similarly, I've seen the desire to sin proposed as a reason. I've also seen other emotional reasons put forth...like perhaps the atheist had a particularly bad experience with a christian. Another is that the atheist was somehow traumatized by life at some point and lost their faith.

I understand that a lot of these beliefs exist because there are times when a christian may struggle with their faith...and end up in some way resenting or being angry with their god. While this may be the closest your average christian ever gets to being an atheist....it is not atheism for the simple fact that you cannot genuinely be angry/disappointed/or otherwise upset with something that you don't believe exists. Nevertheless, it's all that many christians can imagine about lacking a belief in a god...so that experience gets wrongfully projected onto the atheist.

So, as a simple matter of curiosity...I'd like to hear why you (as a believer) think an atheist doesn't believe in god. I'd also like to hear why you hold this belief about atheists (if you feel like using some introspection).

I understand as a topic it may feel a bit uncomfortable to admit to what you genuinely believe...so I'd like to assure you that I won't be passing any judgement on you for your opinions/beliefs. While I can't assure you that no other atheists will do the same...in the interest of mutual understanding...I do hope you'll be as honest as possible, even if your opinion may seem insulting.

Any thoughts?

I typically don't assume that I know why a person holds to an atheistic perspective. In order to find out, I either ask a person directly, or I research some personal 'anti'-testimonies from some of those "other" websites. ;) Otherwise, I assume there are some Kantian like epistemological complexities in how people perceive and understand the world, especially when it comes to religion, so I'm not surprised by the variety of outlooks present among people.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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