What do Baptists believe about speaking in tongues?

P1LGR1M

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while I appreciate the effort in all your post, the simplicity of my question is this, according to 1 Corinthians 12 the apostles and Paul make mention of many supernatural Holy Spirit giftings given to believers, they either continue until the return of Jesus Christ (when perfection comes) or you have come to believe the church no longer needs them,

I'm not sure why you would want to conclude we nolonger need this direct direction and leadership of the Holy Spirit, for even the bible teaches that God would send Him in place of Christ, while He was apart from us

Hello B2TB, sorry this reply is so long in coming but I have been a little tied up.

You mistakenly apply beliefs that are not my own. I have never implied, much less concluded, that "we nolonger need this direct direction and leadership of the Holy Spirit," but have stated that I believe that certain gifts were for the purpose of establishing the Church, and at this time they are not utilized in the clearly consistent manner in which they were employed at that time.

Two different things altogether.

To say that all things, including the gifts, must be done just as they were in the early Church is a bit misleading, seeing that if that is so, why do we not see true Apostles consistently healing, performing miracles, raising the dead...

?

God gave to them gifts that were for a sign, that it might be known that He was moving among them, doing a work. He did exactly that among the children of Israel in Egypt and the Exodus. Yet when the Lord came, we do not see the same miinstry in Israel. Partly, I believe, because Israel had fallen into sin and were judged. We could make a correlation today in Modern Christendom (which I define as the visible "church," to be distinguished from the Body of Christ). The letters to the Seven Churches in Revelation are, I believe, representative of sin within the visible Church. We know from several epistles, as well as from the Lord Himself, that there will be among the true believers those that are not believers, but unbelievers that resemble believers. They will teach false doctrine for gain.

Now let me just say this, before I go any further: I know quite a few charismatic believers and while I disagree with their doctrine on a numbers of fronts, I do not assume to judge their spiritual condition. Just as I do not assume that of anyone. Nor, on the other hand, do I assume they are saved. Salvation is not evidenced by showy gifts, or spectacular phenomena, but by a sound basis which has for a foundation Jesus Christ. It is evidenced by endurance. We all have to learn and none of us are saved having a thorough knowledge of Christ and His word. There will be positions we will abandon as we grow. So if salvation is evidenced by doctrinal flawlessness, then, lol, we should all count ourselves as not being saved, for all of us have infantile understanding when we are saved.

But this I believe, we are commanded to "work out." And we do this by study, prayer, and application of that which we learn. And we see in retrospect that which the Lord is working in our lives, though we may not see it as it is progressing. Think back to when you were saved: were there beliefs that you held which now you do not? If so...why is it that your position changed? I would guess it would be because of your study and time spent with the Lord.

Okay, again, sorry for taking so long to get back to you, and I hope to get the chance to continue discussion. I have a few more irons to get out of the fire and sharpen, lol, but always glad for any conversation.

God bless.
 
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P1LGR1M

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probably a typo error on your part but ;love ,joy ,peace etc are not works but fruits.

Hello Michael.

No it wasn't a typo, I meant what I said. But, in my haste, I gave poor examples in using "joy and peace."

Let me try to explain the point I was trying to make (and this is worse than having to explain one's own humor...lol):

My point was that while love is truly a fruit of the Spirit, there is also a mandate for us to...love. Love is both a noun and a verb for us. and rather than giving joy and peace, I should have said...

Here are a few other spiritual works that I feel take precedence over the gifts we are given:

Love

Longsuffering

Temperance


...which can be viewed as "works," as we have the ability to stifle these characteristics. Sometimes it is work to love someone. Do we always, without thought, love others? Do we always example patience? Self control?

So you point out a mistake on my part: you were right, I was in error to say joy and peace. My point was simply this: we have a mandate to apply Christian principles in our lives, not to quench the Spirit, but in obedience perform that which is commanded, not suggested, that Christ not be blasphemed among the heathen.

And in reviewing my post I would point out that I did list them as fruit.

I have never seperated the gift of tongues from things of the Holy Spirit. Quite the opposite -i have maintained that it is a part of all the things and gifts of the Holy Spirit, who is the manifestation of God himself presently on the earth.

You have me at an advantage as I am not sure the context of this statement, which is why it is a good thing to "separate" the post, lol.

And again, I would return your attention to "manifestations" which even hum-drum believers example, such as works which are the result of the fruit of the Spirit.

As the saying goes, "They will never care how much you know until they know how much you care." The need for "proving" one's spiritual ability by performing gifts they believe will "impress" others often overshadows the simpler acts of true believers. And we have to wonder at that.

it is not I who limit him who is eternal and whose word is faithful and true .it is they who say the God of yesterday cannot do the same works in us today - it is they who place thier theoretic limitations on God .

I have never once said "God cannot do those things." If I am not mistaken, I believe I stated that I do believe that there are exceptions to general rules early on when I entered this conversation. I believe it possible, though I have never personally witnessed it, that God can today use the gift of languages in the field. But I do not believe that all those that say, "I have this gift" are employing the true gift of languages. I believe it to be a couterfeit which has as a sole purpose the intention of "proving" to the people that employ it...that they are actually saved. "If I do this, then I am saved without a doubt." That seems to be the predominant purpose. It is an unverifiable "proof" which has been examined by scholars (and this includes believing scholars) and has never been found to be consistent. In other words, if tongues is an heavenly or Angelic speech, we should see a consistent patttern which would be replicated by those that have never met. Now I will say that scientific study is not something we would hang our hat on, because it is God's prerogrative to withhold understanding from those He wishes to withhold truth from.

But...I do not believe He withholds truth from His children, providing they are sincere in heart and study. So somewhere along the line somebody should have been able to identify an "unknown tongue."

And we do not regard experience to verify scripture, but scripture to define experience. There are a great many "experiences" that people have that unless they conform to that which has already been spoken by God, are viewed to be unreliable.

I find it presumptious of folk to argue and state what God cannot do .Especially to those who have experienced what he DOES DO.

And this is a typical response from one that believes what he does is biblical. It is characteristic of many things seen in charismatic believers.

"You can't understand because it hasn't happened to you."

Okay, fine. But until I can at the very least see a scriptural basis for that which is experienced, I will choose to rely instead on that which I can identify as scriptural.

Do you also experience "slaying in the Spirit?" Answer this one question for me.

God bless.
 
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Michaelismyname

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Hello Michael.


Do you also experience "slaying in the Spirit?" Answer this one question for me.

God bless.
above -partial quote only.

this question is i think neither here nor there .
-And i reply to all.-not you alone
much of the answer you gave to my statement was in honesty ,itself ,not based on scripture but on unbelief.
you must be honest about this .No one has given simple clear scriptual basis that annulls the baptism of The Holy Ghost nor the gifts of tongues which often accompanies the baptism.most who speak to the contrary do so merely because they have not recieved that which they do not believe for.

as for the term "slain in the Spirit.. "


I can only surmize where/when this adjective came to be popularized.
after all,it is only a word used to describe what an onlooker sees. A person fallen down on the floor apparently not aware of the immediate surroundings . hence to the onlooker ,they are slain .- who knows -Not I.

paul speaks of knowing a man caught up in the Spirit- bodily -he knows not -in spirit ? he knows not .-if it was in Spirit -what state was his flesh in while he was -in spirit,absent from it ? ...etc -I know not.
shall i then be a judge of that which i cannot know ? no that would be foolish.
shall i then place a rule fleshy intellect on that which i do not know of the boundless limitless mysteries of the power of God? i shall not.
rather i shall deem the promises of the word of God to be faithful and true .

having done so I have recieved those promises and thus the word of God has been proven to me to -be- faithful and true .

part2- now enters the counterfiet ..the spirit of antichrsit -into the topic .I believe the sole scource of all confusion on the topic and the greatest pointed hindrence to folk recieving the promises.the spirit of anti-chrsit which is as work in the children of disobedience. for unbeleif is in itself -disobedience.
and the spirit of anti christ is aslo a spirit which seeks to enter a persons life and does so .and is also the scource ,working through the decietful hearts of men in all manner or greed and covetousness and wickedness,perverting the truth for monetary gain.
placing falshood in the place of truth . pushing people over in services -folk who are willing to hear sweet teaching and willing to "be seen of men" as being blessed they willingly "fall over" and in ignorance or evil ,join in the furtherance of the counterfeit.

in everything there is a counterfeit . God spoke the truth to adam ..the serpant came and lied
The lord Jesus came -the lord God incarnate ..
the serpent will raise up his conterfiet..

the Lord Jesus promised the baptism of the Holy Ghost saying that "he" will lead us into all truth
the serpent at all times trying to destroy the works of God sends the counterfiet.
---
be cautious that in rightfully speaking againt the false -you do not reject the truth.-for in doing so you have fufilled the work of the enemy through unbelief.for this reason alone we have great need of the gift of discernment of spirits -which is also given when one is baptisned in the Holy Ghost.

{refer back to my testimony of things that often happen when i pray in the spirit in tongues-speaking mysteries in the Spirit by the utterence of the Holy Spirit.if it is truly no longer I that lives but Christ that lives in me -whom is it that you speak against when you speak against the gifts of the Holy Spirit?}

the gifts of the Holy Spirit are of the Holy Spirit ..but they are of no benificial good to me or you or any one if the one gifted has gone to be with the lord (as the apostles and folk in the book of acts have).they are tools for each and every generation.for the church is established throughout the generations being constantly renewed until the lords return.
did the preaching of the lord jesus himself save anyone in todays generation? or anyone in the generation after pauls?..no the preaching of those that came after and preached to the next generation brought both the message and the manifestaion of the POWER OF GOD through the gifts of the Holy SPirit to prove the authuority of the Gospel as truth.and so to the next generation and the next-until this very day .
 
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OzSpen

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Michael,

I used to accept that tongues was the initial physical evidence of the baptism with the Holy Spirit when I was an ordained Assemblies of God minister. I had to accept tongues as the initial physical evidence of the baptism with the Spirit according to Acts 2:4.

I speak with the gift of tongues for personal edification, but when I examined the Scriptures closely, I could no longer accept the Pentecostal doctrine of the baptism with the Spirit, with tongues as the initial physical evidence.

Why? I went to the Bible and it convinced me. I've provided this exposition of the evidence in, 'Tongues and the baptism with the Holy Spirit', to provide biblical reasons for my rejection of that doctrine.

I continue to promote the supernatural gifts of the Spirit (1 Cor. 12-14; Rom. 12:3-8; Eph 4:9-16) as available today. I oppose cessationism, but I am not convinced biblically that I can support the Pentecostal doctrine that you seem to be promoting.

However, let's continue to be brothers in Christ who 'earnestly desire the higher gifts' (1 Cor 12 31 ESV) - those that edify the body of Christ. 'Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts' (1 Cor. 14:1 ESV).

In Christ,
Oz



above -partial quote only.

this question is i think neither here nor there .
-And i reply to all.-not you alone
much of the answer you gave to my statement was in honesty ,itself ,not based on scripture but on unbelief.
you must be honest about this .No one has given simple clear scriptual basis that annulls the baptism of The Holy Ghost nor the gifts of tongues which often accompanies the baptism.most who speak to the contrary do so merely because they have not recieved that which they do not believe for.

as for the term "slain in the Spirit.. "


I can only surmize where/when this adjective came to be popularized.
after all,it is only a word used to describe what an onlooker sees. A person fallen down on the floor apparently not aware of the immediate surroundings . hence to the onlooker ,they are slain .- who knows -Not I.

paul speaks of knowing a man caught up in the Spirit- bodily -he knows not -in spirit ? he knows not .-if it was in Spirit -what state was his flesh in while he was -in spirit,absent from it ? ...etc -I know not.
shall i then be a judge of that which i cannot know ? no that would be foolish.
shall i then place a rule fleshy intellect on that which i do not know of the boundless limitless mysteries of the power of God? i shall not.
rather i shall deem the promises of the word of God to be faithful and true .

having done so I have recieved those promises and thus the word of God has been proven to me to -be- faithful and true .

part2- now enters the counterfiet ..the spirit of antichrsit -into the topic .I believe the sole scource of all confusion on the topic and the greatest pointed hindrence to folk recieving the promises.the spirit of anti-chrsit which is as work in the children of disobedience. for unbeleif is in itself -disobedience.
and the spirit of anti christ is aslo a spirit which seeks to enter a persons life and does so .and is also the scource ,working through the decietful hearts of men in all manner or greed and covetousness and wickedness,perverting the truth for monetary gain.
placing falshood in the place of truth . pushing people over in services -folk who are willing to hear sweet teaching and willing to "be seen of men" as being blessed they willingly "fall over" and in ignorance or evil ,join in the furtherance of the counterfeit.

in everything there is a counterfeit . God spoke the truth to adam ..the serpant came and lied
The lord Jesus came -the lord God incarnate ..
the serpent will raise up his conterfiet..

the Lord Jesus promised the baptism of the Holy Ghost saying that "he" will lead us into all truth
the serpent at all times trying to destroy the works of God sends the counterfiet.
---
be cautious that in rightfully speaking againt the false -you do not reject the truth.-for in doing so you have fufilled the work of the enemy through unbelief.for this reason alone we have great need of the gift of discernment of spirits -which is also given when one is baptisned in the Holy Ghost.

{refer back to my testimony of things that often happen when i pray in the spirit in tongues-speaking mysteries in the Spirit by the utterence of the Holy Spirit.if it is truly no longer I that lives but Christ that lives in me -whom is it that you speak against when you speak against the gifts of the Holy Spirit?}

the gifts of the Holy Spirit are of the Holy Spirit ..but they are of no benificial good to me or you or any one if the one gifted has gone to be with the lord (as the apostles and folk in the book of acts have).they are tools for each and every generation.for the church is established throughout the generations being constantly renewed until the lords return.
did the preaching of the lord jesus himself save anyone in todays generation? or anyone in the generation after pauls?..no the preaching of those that came after and preached to the next generation brought both the message and the manifestaion of the POWER OF GOD through the gifts of the Holy SPirit to prove the authuority of the Gospel as truth.and so to the next generation and the next-until this very day .
 
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now faith

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Correction: your experience "proves" only what you believe the scriptures teach, and that is not the same as "proving what the scriptures teach."

And if you cannot take the word of God and validate ecatly what you believe it teaches, doesn't that suggest that what you believe is suspect? It should...to you.

Atheists mock and ridicule Christians and it is because they often talk with Christians that say they believe something but cannot explain from scripture why they believe it.



I have not, and will not...doubt your sincerity, Michael. I believe you are sincere in your beliefs, and that you believe the word of God validates your belief and experience.

I have given a scriptural presentation on my views, and would add that this is "What a Baptist believes about speaking in tongues." But I would also qualify that with, "What this Baptist believes," lol. There are those that call themselves Baptists that would align with your position.



And I would change that to include "what I believe to be true."

You have contributed absolutely nothing scriptural to validate your position. You have contributed nothing to invalidate mine.

Just because we believe it to be true, does not mean it is, and I say that to include what I believe as well...not trying to exclude myself from that.



The implication is that I have only offered theory, and I can understand why you might see it that way, however, you also assume that those in disagreement with you are devoid of experiencing God working in their lives.

And both are in error, which is the usual result of assumption.




Who's arguing?

You present what is supposed to be a biblical presentation of sound doctrine...and then don't want to talk when someone offers an opposing position.

This is a critical issue in the Body of Christ and the consequences of a loose interpretation which affects our practice is something that both sides whould be ready to address.



If I said something like, "It makes me suspicious when someone calls Jesus lord, instead of Lord," what would you say, lol.

Look, I have addressed where I think you have erred concerning the Holy Spirit...what more can I do? If you wish to be taken seriously...go back and address that which has been presented.

If you think that any of us should think or feel others should just take our word for it, then you can expect to be disappointed when they don't.

No-one should take anyone's word for anything if it is not backed up by God's word.




As will every person God saves.

But how is that relevant to what you are teaching? You say you were saved for years and then received the Spirit. I call that into question in my responses because that is not what I believe scripture to teach. I have given many scriptures and made many statements which you are free to address.

When you do that, perhaps it might be a discussion, rather than, "This is truth...believe it!"

If you want to prove subsequence, present the scriptural basis.



There are those in Shinto and buddhism that also speak in tongues. Does this validate their religion?





And I will supply, for you, the biblical basis for your doctrine:


1 Corinthians 14

King James Version (KJV)


1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.


I gave in the earlier response my belief that Paul is actually rebuking the Corinthians for what they are doing (which probably stems from their aquaintance to the Oracle of Delphi, where ecstatic speech was a normal event), rather than teaching that one that is employing the gift of tongues is employing it for that which it was intended. This is further evidenced as we go through the chapter, where the speaker is said to speak into the air.

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.



The "mysteries" spoken of are contrasted to the edification, exhortation, and comfort provided by he that prophesies.

While it might sound good to say one "speaks in mysteries," keep inmind that biblically speaking a "mystery" is a previously unrevealed truth.

Are you suggesting that God is giving you new revelation that we should catalogue and include with that which we have in scripture? Think about that, Michael.




Who is edified?

You? According to Paul, that is the only one that could be.




Scripture?

Can I venture a guess, since I have not been provided with one, of the basis for this statement, as is oft used by our charismatic brethren?

Romans 8:26-27

King James Version (KJV)


26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.



Feel free to produce your own. But if this is it...then it has nothing to do with speaking in tongues. In fact, it has nothing to do with what a believer is doing, as it is the Holy Spirit that is making intercession, and...with groaning that cannot be uttered.

Not with groanings that can be uttered.

And surely you are not suggesting that men are the ones "searching hearts."





And I can understand how one might see this gift as a means of praise, as in Acts 2 we see them speaking in tongues, praising God.

But I would ask, based upon your next statement, how it is that you even know you are praising God? Is this to say that sometimes you understand what you are saying, sometimes you don't?



Of what you are saying?

So Paul went a little overboard saying...


1 Corinthians 14

King James Version (KJV)



6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?



Has the Body today a better understanding than that which God inspired Paul to teach? He makes it clear that when he speaks in languages, apart from edification of the Body it would be unprofitable.




If you say you have visions, okay. How they compare to the visions professed by another member recently?



And this may very well be true.

But could I suggest that testimony should always be in agreement with scripure?



The implication being, "If you do not believe me...you are not a believer."

Really, Michael, we must be careful how we phrase things, lol.

God bless.

I have noticed always left out is Paul's last verse( forbid not to speak in tongues).
If you acknowledge Acts chapter 1 verses 5 through 8,then you understand what happened at Pentecost, then shortly after with the Gentiles.
As Christ used the term utter most parts of the earth, can you give me Bible verse that tells us tongues and the gifts ceased and at what time?
If the gifts were for witness to the lost,is there lost people today?
Jews still need witness today don't they.
The only verse I have had quoted was (when that which is perfect is come) supposed to mean the completed Bible.
This is so far fetched, due to nothing about the Bible, only the term that which is perfect.
If you read forward Paul mentioned looking through a glass darkly.
Then he states when we meet face to face.
He is talking about Christ that which is perfect. Not trying to banter I was a Baptist for most of my life. But I have yet to hear a logical reason in the Bible why God would pour out the Spirit,then later quinch his power.
 
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SoulBap6

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What do Baptists believe about speaking in tongues?

Don't believe that some religions have a special language, to talk to God or others. Tongues is like speaking German and someone comes in and Translates it to the congregation English so people can understand. Apostle Paul wrote about speaking in tongues.
1Cor.14

  1. [5] I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
  2. [6] Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
  3. [18] I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
  4. [21] In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
  5. [22] Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
  6. [23] If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
  7. [39] Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues
Tongues is not unknown or special it is the Language people understand, and if they don't than an interpreter has to be present, so the church can understand
 
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P1LGR1M

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I have noticed always left out is Paul's last verse( forbid not to speak in tongues).

Left out by who? lol

What is absent is an address to the scripture which has been presented. Shall I mention that those that "speak in tongues" today seldom reference:


1 Corinthians 14:9

King James Version (KJV)


9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.



No. Because I try to make it a habit of responding to what is taking place in a conversation, rather than avoiding a direct response and deflecting.

But that is just me.

If you acknowledge Acts chapter 1 verses 5 through 8,then you understand what happened at Pentecost, then shortly after with the Gentiles.

Acknowledging and understanding are not always the same.

Most who enter this debate acknowledge, but we can say it is safe to say both sides believe the other lack understanding.

As Christ used the term utter most parts of the earth, can you give me Bible verse that tells us tongues and the gifts ceased and at what time?

You have inserted a false charge that I have said all gifts have ceased. Have you read what I have said?

This is typical, though, and helps for one to seem like they are engaging what is presented and giving an answer. However, one disqualifies themself from legitimacy by lacing their responses with false charges. This is as bad as deflection.

What I have said is that tongues were for a sign, and what Paul said was...


1 Corinthians 13:8

King James Version (KJV)


8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.



Paul goes on to say:


1 Corinthians 13:9-10

King James Version (KJV)


9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.



What he does not say is, "We speak tongues in part."

I believe "that which is perfect" is the eternal state. A reference to an everlasting presence with the Lord (when we are face to face) that includes when we go to be with Him, not just the creation of the New Heavens and Earth.


12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


When that comes about, we no longer will have partial knowledge, and in fact there will be no need to prophesy.

If the gifts were for witness to the lost,is there lost people today?
Jews still need witness today don't they.

If?


1 Corinthians 14:21-22

King James Version (KJV)


21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.



So if Paul is rebuking them seeing it necessary that they do not...


23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?


...becausae if they do...


23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?


...and he exhorts them regarding their coming together after this manner...

24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:


...it would seem to me that those that do that which he rebukes are involved in practice contrary to his teaching.



The only verse I have had quoted was (when that which is perfect is come) supposed to mean the completed Bible.


According to your belief. I see it as the eternal state, as mentioned above.

It is doubtful that this is a reference to scripture as if this is the case, we would make little sense of the phrase "face to face."

But you mention this again so it appears you do not view this as a reference to the New Testament in it's canonized (or even collective) form.

This is so far fetched, due to nothing about the Bible, only the term that which is perfect.

Agreed.

If you read forward Paul mentioned looking through a glass darkly.
Then he states when we meet face to face.
He is talking about Christ that which is perfect.

What we perceive is not perfect. Here, he specifically refers to knowledge and prophesying.

At this time, in this body, we know in part and therefore prophesy in part, not having full knowledge.

Not trying to banter I was a Baptist for most of my life.

According to who's definition? Attending a Baptist Church does not make one a Baptist any more than attending any church makes one a Christian.

It would be better therefore to say "I attended Baptist Churches for most of my life."

The same thing is said on all sides: "I was a charismatic all my life..."

"I was a Catholic all my life..."

Et cetera.

But when we look at the reasons why they left that particular group, usually it is due to confict with some or all of the distinctives that would make one a member of that group.

Not to mention the fact that within each group there is a wide array of doctrinal statements, where we would find "baptists" that are actually charismatic, and vice versa. I happen to have respect for the AoG fellowships I visited (and in fact once went on a mission trip with) for how conservative they were in their practice and an adherence to a more biblically accurate display of faith and practice than we would see in some
of the more radical charismatic fellowships.


But I have yet to hear a logical reason in the Bible why God would pour out the Spirit,then later quinch his power.

That is probably due to the fact that you have not heard someone say this. It is falsely confusing the issues with your perception of what is believed with what has actually been said.

You are free to go through every post I have done in this thread (or any other) and quote me as saying (direct quote from you) "God would pour out the Spirit,then later quinch his power."

Another direct quote:


...can you give me Bible verse that tells us tongues and the gifts ceased and at what time?


Can you give a post where I said "tongues and the gifts ceased?"

The answer is no. I do not need to review what I said because this does not represent my beliefs, therefore, I am confident no such quote will be forthcoming.

God bless.
 
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P1LGR1M

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Hello Michael, thank you for the response.


above -partial quote only.


Not sure why this is important, you have addressed nothing that has been presented, but have simply made a statement here.

this question is i think neither here nor there .

It isn't?

Wouldn't it be more true to say that you recognize tht practices that are not justified by teaching of scripture can be viewed to be unbiblical?

The reason why I asked about this is because it is another practice that is associated only with groups that also teach ecstatic speech.

-And i reply to all.-not you alone

THe reply is hard to follow, not distinclty answering the question is a direct manner.

I am led to believe that you see "some" practices called "slaying in the spirit" to be counterfiet, but that there is a true "slaying in the spirit" that you feel is a biblical practice within the Body of Christ.

Could you just say whether you practice this particular doctrine?

much of the answer you gave to my statement was in honesty ,itself ,not based on scripture but on unbelief.

Funny, but I included scripture and what I believed it meant in the response.

And you conclude me in unbelief because I do not embrace your view?

There is a difference between the fact that my beliefs differ from yours and unbelief. I believe that the modern abuses seen in certain churches are unbiblical, as they do not resemble that which we see in scripture.

Which is why I asked about slaying in the spirit, because it is a practice that has absolutely no biblical foundation. Yet is accepted as Christian practice.

you must be honest about this .


I will be, and I hope you will not hold that against me.

Continued...
 
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P1LGR1M

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No one has given simple clear scriptual basis that annulls the baptism of The Holy Ghost


Because no-one is denying, to my knowedge anyway, that the Baptism with the Holy Spirit has been annulled.

Just as no-one is denying that there is a true gift of tongues.

It is just the understanding of these doctrines which is debated.





nor the gifts of tongues which often accompanies the baptism.



Which is to deny what scripture teaches:


1 Corinthians 12:28-30

King James Version (KJV)


28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?



We know that those that are not Baptized with the Holy Ghost do not belong to God. Subsequent "baptism" is not taught in scripture.

You suggest that one can be Baptized with the Spirit yet receive, if they ask for it, a subsequent "baptism."

The burden is on you to show this from scripture, and I will be glad to see such a presentation.




most who speak to the contrary do so merely because they have not recieved that which they do not believe for.


Typical excuse. "You can't understand because you haven't received it."

What I can understand is what scripture has to say about it, and so far I have seen nothing to justify a subsequent baptism resulting in speaking in tongues.

All of the scriptural models are of those that have just been saved and have received the Spirit of God, without receiving one cannot be saved.




as for the term "slain in the Spirit.. "


And you might clarify what you say in this next section. I have had a hard time being sure that you are saying what I think you are. Which is, "Some practice of slaying in the spirit is wrong, but there are those that observe this practice which correctly do so."




I can only surmize where/when this adjective came to be popularized.
after all,it is only a word used to describe what an onlooker sees. A person fallen down on the floor apparently not aware of the immediate surroundings . hence to the onlooker ,they are slain .- who knows -Not I.



It comes from the charismatic movement.

And it is an unbiblical practice that I believe serves to help some feel more..."spiritual."





paul speaks of knowing a man caught up in the Spirit- bodily -he knows not -in spirit ? he knows not .-if it was in Spirit -what state was his flesh in while he was -in spirit,absent from it ? ...etc -I know not.
shall i then be a judge of that which i cannot know ? no that would be foolish.



Would it not be more foolish to engage in unbiblical practice?






shall i then place a rule fleshy intellect on that which i do not know of the boundless limitless mysteries of the power of God?



So in other words, "I don't have to understand it, I just go with the flow. If everyone is doing it, it must be okay."


1 Corinthians 14:15

King James Version (KJV)


15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.



Paul put a lot of effort to teach against just such a mindset.





i shall not.
rather i shall deem the promises of the word of God to be faithful and true .



The implication being that those that reject practices that are suspect do not.





having done so I have recieved those promises and thus the word of God has been proven to me to -be- faithful and true .


In other words "My experience proves to me that I am right, and others are wrong."

It would be a different world if the "experiences" of some had been saddled with a proper understanding of what scripture teaches.

"I have experienced visions when gazing into a hat so those that do not do so cannot understand it."

"I have talked directly to God and Angels so those that have not do not understand it."

Let me ask you this: did you immediately begin speaking fluently in tongues, Michael, or did it take time for this gift to be spoken in a fluent manner?


Continued...
 
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P1LGR1M

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part2- now enters the counterfiet ..the spirit of antichrsit -into the topic .


And here you might clarify whether you accept and even practice slaying in the spirit.

It seems that you are saying some practice a counterfeit slaying in the spirit.





I believe the sole scource of all confusion on the topic and the greatest pointed hindrence to folk recieving the promises.the spirit of anti-chrsit which is as work in the children of disobedience. for unbeleif is in itself -disobedience.


The way this is worded is a bit choppy.

It is not clear if you mean those illegitimately practing a counterfeit are children of disobedience or if it just meant those who do not accept this practice as biblical.





and the spirit of anti christ is aslo a spirit which seeks to enter a persons life and does so .and is also the scource ,working through the decietful hearts of men in all manner or greed and covetousness and wickedness,perverting the truth for monetary gain.


Agreed, in part. Most of what we see on certain "christian networks" is nothing more than a bunch of false teachers doing whatever necessary to profit on those that follow them, shearing them for filthy lucre.





placing falshood in the place of truth .


That is exactly what they do.

And prominent in their teaching is their...experience.

They have visions and "a word from the Lord" and "new revelation."

False teachers.






pushing people over in services -folk who are willing to hear sweet teaching and willing to "be seen of men" as being blessed they willingly "fall over" and in ignorance or evil ,join in the furtherance of the counterfeit.



Benny Hinn was sued when an elderly woman was killed by someone who was "slain in the spirit."

I would be curious as to where that person is today and what they would say concerning slaying in the spirit.





in everything there is a counterfeit . God spoke the truth to adam ..the serpant came and lied
The lord Jesus came -the lord God incarnate ..
the serpent will raise up his conterfiet..



Agreed. Satan has used counterfeits in his work since the beginning, starting with counterfeit truth. The best way to recognize a counterfeit is to have a good knowledge of that which is genuine.





the Lord Jesus promised the baptism of the Holy Ghost saying that "he" will lead us into all truth
the serpent at all times trying to destroy the works of God sends the counterfiet.
---


The genuine Baptism with the Holy Spirit is part of salvation. This is part of the New Birth promised in Ezekial 36 and referenced by the Lord in John 3.




be cautious that in rightfully speaking againt the false -you do not reject the truth.-for in doing so you have fufilled the work of the enemy through unbelief.



So tell me, Michael...do you accept or practice...slaying in the spirit?

It is a simple question.





for this reason alone we have great need of the gift of discernment of spirits -which is also given when one is baptisned in the Holy Ghost.




Michaeli[/COLOR said:



The gift of discernment of spirits is actually one I believe I may have, though I would not be dogmatic about that claim. What I can say is that all believers can have discernment concerning good and evil by study of God's word:


Hebrews 5:14

King James Version (KJV)


14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.



This contrasts the infantile understanding those the writer rebukes which he says is due to their laziness.


Continued...
 
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P1LGR1M

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{refer back to my testimony of things that often happen when i pray in the spirit in tongues-speaking mysteries in the Spirit by the utterence of the Holy Spirit.



I am about as interested and convinced by the experience of others as I am of claims by anyone.

Anyone can boast of experience, Michael, but no-one steps up to point out the gifts of miracles, healings, raising of the dead...being practiced in a consistent manner today.

Many claims emanate from charismatic circles of just such experiences, but when looked into, none are verified.

Does this mean that those that have looked into them are unbelievers? Disobedient children? Hardly. This has been investigated by believers and unbelievers alike, and has always been shown to uncover frauds and charlatans interested only in unrighteous gain.

It may be that threats such as the ones thinly veiled in several posts might intimidate some, but I am not. I can look into scripture and see false teachers and pagan practice being taught and observed by those that mishandle God;s word for profit.





if it is truly no longer I that lives but Christ that lives in me -whom is it that you speak against when you speak against the gifts of the Holy Spirit?}


Is that a question? Or a statement.

If one does not accept the understanding of those involved in such practice...they are speaking against the Holy Spirit? If I do not consider your experience to be valid proof of your doctrine...I speak against the Holy Spirit?






the gifts of the Holy Spirit are of the Holy Spirit ..but they are of no benificial good to me or you or any one if the one gifted has gone to be with the lord (as the apostles and folk in the book of acts have).they are tools for each and every generation.for the church is established throughout the generations being constantly renewed until the lords return.

So we just make scripture conform to each new generation.

Incredible.




did the preaching of the lord jesus himself save anyone in todays generation?


Not sure how you could ask such a question.

Of course the preaching of Christ has saved everyone that has been saved.

We are the Physical Body of Christ, Who works in and through us. We do not save anyone, Michael, for salvation is wholly the work of God. It is not our words we speak, but God's word which results in effectual calling. It is not we who move men to repentance, but God Himself.

What you are teaching here is that we contribute to the work of salvation, and nothing could be further from the teacing of scripture.






or anyone in the generation after pauls?..


Absolutely.




no the preaching of those that came after and preached to the next generation brought both the message and the manifestaion of the POWER OF GOD through the gifts of the Holy SPirit to prove the authuority of the Gospel as truth.



Incredible.

What is the foundation of that which is preached, but the word of God?





and so to the next generation and the next-until this very day .



No man can teach truth but by the Spirit of God, and that which he teaches, unless it be rooted and grounded in the word of God, is not of the Lord, but is a fleshly work.

God bless.
 
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now faith

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Left out by who? lol

What is absent is an address to the scripture which has been presented. Shall I mention that those that "speak in tongues" today seldom reference:


1 Corinthians 14:9

King James Version (KJV)


9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.



No. Because I try to make it a habit of responding to what is taking place in a conversation, rather than avoiding a direct response and deflecting.

But that is just me.



Acknowledging and understanding are not always the same.

Most who enter this debate acknowledge, but we can say it is safe to say both sides believe the other lack understanding.



You have inserted a false charge that I have said all gifts have ceased. Have you read what I have said?

This is typical, though, and helps for one to seem like they are engaging what is presented and giving an answer. However, one disqualifies themself from legitimacy by lacing their responses with false charges. This is as bad as deflection.

What I have said is that tongues were for a sign, and what Paul said was...


1 Corinthians 13:8

King James Version (KJV)


8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.



Paul goes on to say:


1 Corinthians 13:9-10

King James Version (KJV)


9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.



What he does not say is, "We speak tongues in part."

I believe "that which is perfect" is the eternal state. A reference to an everlasting presence with the Lord (when we are face to face) that includes when we go to be with Him, not just the creation of the New Heavens and Earth.


12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


When that comes about, we no longer will have partial knowledge, and in fact there will be no need to prophesy.



If?


1 Corinthians 14:21-22

King James Version (KJV)


21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.



So if Paul is rebuking them seeing it necessary that they do not...


23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?


...becausae if they do...


23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?


...and he exhorts them regarding their coming together after this manner...

24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:


...it would seem to me that those that do that which he rebukes are involved in practice contrary to his teaching.






According to your belief. I see it as the eternal state, as mentioned above.

It is doubtful that this is a reference to scripture as if this is the case, we would make little sense of the phrase "face to face."

But you mention this again so it appears you do not view this as a reference to the New Testament in it's canonized (or even collective) form.



Agreed.



What we perceive is not perfect. Here, he specifically refers to knowledge and prophesying.

At this time, in this body, we know in part and therefore prophesy in part, not having full knowledge.



According to who's definition? Attending a Baptist Church does not make one a Baptist any more than attending any church makes one a Christian.

It would be better therefore to say "I attended Baptist Churches for most of my life."

The same thing is said on all sides: "I was a charismatic all my life..."

"I was a Catholic all my life..."

Et cetera.

But when we look at the reasons why they left that particular group, usually it is due to confict with some or all of the distinctives that would make one a member of that group.

Not to mention the fact that within each group there is a wide array of doctrinal statements, where we would find "baptists" that are actually charismatic, and vice versa. I happen to have respect for the AoG fellowships I visited (and in fact once went on a mission trip with) for how conservative they were in their practice and an adherence to a more biblically accurate display of faith and practice than we would see in some
of the more radical charismatic fellowships.




That is probably due to the fact that you have not heard someone say this. It is falsely confusing the issues with your perception of what is believed with what has actually been said.

You are free to go through every post I have done in this thread (or any other) and quote me as saying (direct quote from you) "God would pour out the Spirit,then later quinch his power."

Another direct quote:





Can you give a post where I said "tongues and the gifts ceased?"

The answer is no. I do not need to review what I said because this does not represent my beliefs, therefore, I am confident no such quote will be forthcoming.

God bless.
Thank you very much, your reasoning,has exposed my assumptions.
You are on target I was in a conditioned response mode.
The that which is perfect answer was wonderfull, I hope you understand that the, Independent Baptist I have known use this theology as their point to discard the gifts.
My self I completely agree with Paul's teaching on the subject to the Corinthians.
I do believe all the gifts are for today and are conditional on your faith.
A man will never receive anything he speaks against. God bless.
 
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P1LGR1M

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Thank you very much, your reasoning,has exposed my assumptions.
You are on target I was in a conditioned response mode.
The that which is perfect answer was wonderfull, I hope you understand that the, Independent Baptist I have known use this theology as their point to discard the gifts.
My self I completely agree with Paul's teaching on the subject to the Corinthians.
I do believe all the gifts are for today and are conditional on your faith.
A man will never receive anything he speaks against. God bless.

Thanks, Now Faith, I appreciate that more than you know.

God bless.
 
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DeaconDean

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Lawrence A. Justice wrote concerning Pentecostalism:

We could mention many things that are wrong with Pentecostalism. We could mention the divisiveness it seems to bring in a church. We could mention the circus-like atmosphere it creates in the worship services. But here we want to look at only four of the outstanding errors of this heresy of Pentecostalism.
First Pentecostalism seeks to apply to our day what belonged only to the apostles and their day. Pentecostals teach that those extraordinary gifts given by the Lord to the apostles and others in New Testament times are intended for Christians in every age.
The purpose of the charismatic gifts was to authenticate the Apostles and their message in the early days of Christianity due to the fact that the New Testament had not yet been completed. God gave the Apostles some special gifts by which the Apostles and their message were accredited or authenticated as being of God. In New Testament times God spoke by direct revelations to His Apostles and Prophets. Signs were needed to confirm that their messages were actually from God.
Paul calls these gifts the signs of an apostle. In 2 Corinthians 10-13 Paul is defending his authority as an apostle against some who evidently were claiming that he was not a true apostle. In 2 Corinthians 12:12 Paul says, "Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds." Paul is saying here, "I evidenced to you my call as an apostle by such signs as were sufficient to prove to you that I am a true apostle from God." Paul says that these signs and miracles were proof that he and his message were from God, that they authenticated his ministry as an apostle.
Now that the Apostles have passed from the scene and the Gospel has been introduced to the world and the New Testament Canon has been completed, those special sign gifts have passed away. Hebrew 2:3-4 is a clear demonstration that these special gifts have passed away. " How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed (past tense) unto us (readers) by them (the Apostles) that heard him; God also bearing them (the Apostles, not us, them) witness, both with signs and wonders, and with diverse miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost according to his will."
What’s wrong with Pentecostalism? Secondly, Pentecostalism gives greater emphasis to the Holy Spirit than to the Lord Jesus Christ. The ultimate experience for Pentecostals is the baptism of the Holy Spirit and they speak much of being filled with the Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit and of the blessings of the Spirit-filled life and they urge men to seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This emphasis is contrary to what the Bible teaches about the ministry of the Holy Spirit.
According to the Lord Jesus in John 16:13-14, the Holy Spirit doesn’t seek to make men Spirit conscious. He makes them Christ conscious. " Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you."
The chief function of the Holy Spirit of God is to glorify Christ and not Himself. A Spirit-filled man speaks of Christ, he glorifies Christ, he draws attention to Christ, he testifies to Christ that in all the things Christ may have the preeminence.
In Acts 1:8 the risen Lord tells us the purpose of His sending the Holy Spirit when He says: "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." At Pentecost when Peter was filled with the Holy Spirit what did he preach about? Not the wonderful blessings of the Spirit-filled life! Whom did he glorify? Not the Holy Spirit. When Peter was tilled with the Spirit at Pentecost he preached Christ! Spirit-filled people are occupied with Christ!
Now how do we recognize the Holy Spirit’s presence in our churches today if the extraordinary or charismatic gifts passed away? The Holy Spirit today takes the things of Christ and shows them to men. He glorifies Christ and when the Holy Spirit fills men, they praise and they glorify Christ.
A fourth thing wrong with Pentecostalism is that Pentecostalism assembles the church around something other than the Word of God. A true church of Jesus Christ assembles together around the pulpit. It comes together for the preaching of the Word of God. Pentecostalism today assembles the church around special revelations and dreams and speaking in tongues and experiences rather than the preaching of the Word of God.
More time and attention is dedicated to healing and sharing experiences than to the declaration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Their fellowship is based on similar experiences rather than on Jesus Christ in the written Word. Their fellowship is not in the doctrine of God, but in the gifts and in the experiences of those gifts. Pentecostals can have fellowship with the most extreme liberals and apostates who deny the fundamentals of the faith and also with fundamentalists and Roman Catholics, just as long as they have experienced Holy Spirit baptism.
Pentecostalism emphasizes experience over doctrine. The thing that really counts with Pentecostals is the experience of Spirit baptism and speaking in tongues. The thing to be sought after and gloried in is not the glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, but the experience of the gifts.

Should a Baptist Church Embrace Pentecostalism?, Lawrence A. Justice

I am forced to agree with him.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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MOD HAT ON

This thread has gone through a clean up. Some good posts had to be deleted along with the bad. Sorry.

Please make sure you understand the Baptist Statement of Faith before posting here.

MOD HAT OFF
 
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Pilgrim,

You wrote:
Incredible.
What is the foundation of that which is preached, but the word of God?
What NT Word of God was available to those who preached according to that which is recorded in the Book of Acts?

Could you be missing something here?

Oz
 
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Lawrence A. Justice wrote concerning Pentecostalism:

Should a Baptist Church Embrace Pentecostalism?, Lawrence A. Justice

I am forced to agree with him.

God Bless

Till all are one.
Dean,

These are some of Lawrence Justice's presuppositions that need to be exposed to a biblical critique:

  • First Pentecostalism seeks to apply to our day what belonged only to the apostles and their day.
  • Paul calls these gifts the signs of an apostle.
  • Now that the Apostles have passed from the scene and the Gospel has been introduced to the world and the New Testament Canon has been completed, those special sign gifts have passed away.
  • Pentecostalism gives greater emphasis to the Holy Spirit than to the Lord Jesus Christ.
  • According to the Lord Jesus in John 16:13-14, the Holy Spirit doesn’t seek to make men Spirit conscious. He makes them Christ conscious.
  • At Pentecost when Peter was filled with the Holy Spirit what did he preach about? Not the wonderful blessings of the Spirit-filled life! Whom did he glorify? Not the Holy Spirit.
  • Now how do we recognize the Holy Spirit’s presence in our churches today if the extraordinary or charismatic gifts passed away? The Holy Spirit today takes the things of Christ and shows them to men.
  • A fourth thing wrong with Pentecostalism is that Pentecostalism assembles the church around something other than the Word of God. A true church of Jesus Christ assembles together around the pulpit.
  • More time and attention is dedicated to healing and sharing experiences than to the declaration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
  • Their fellowship is based on similar experiences rather than on Jesus Christ in the written Word. Their fellowship is not in the doctrine of God, but in the gifts and in the experiences of those gifts.
You say that you support these points from Lawrence Justice. Since you have tried to separate the manifestations of the Spirit from the Gospel preached and the doctrine of God. I am wondering about the nature of your trinitarian God. There is one God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

But these statements by Lawrence Justice are loaded presuppositions. I don't have the time at the moment to expose these presuppositions with a biblical exposition, one by one. But this I know is that when the church gathers, this is what should be happening (which is a far cry from services in most evangelical churches):
What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up (1 Cor 14:16 ESV).
I can almost imagine Paul, the apostle, having a theological fit when he compares what he wrote in this verse with what is happening in today's churches - that have essentially closed down the gifts of everyday believers when the church gathers.

In Christ, Oz
 
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Dean,

These are some of Lawrence Justice's presuppositions that need to be exposed to a biblical critique:

  • First Pentecostalism seeks to apply to our day what belonged only to the apostles and their day.
  • Paul calls these gifts the signs of an apostle.
  • Now that the Apostles have passed from the scene and the Gospel has been introduced to the world and the New Testament Canon has been completed, those special sign gifts have passed away.
  • Pentecostalism gives greater emphasis to the Holy Spirit than to the Lord Jesus Christ.
  • According to the Lord Jesus in John 16:13-14, the Holy Spirit doesn’t seek to make men Spirit conscious. He makes them Christ conscious.
  • At Pentecost when Peter was filled with the Holy Spirit what did he preach about? Not the wonderful blessings of the Spirit-filled life! Whom did he glorify? Not the Holy Spirit.
  • Now how do we recognize the Holy Spirit’s presence in our churches today if the extraordinary or charismatic gifts passed away? The Holy Spirit today takes the things of Christ and shows them to men.
  • A fourth thing wrong with Pentecostalism is that Pentecostalism assembles the church around something other than the Word of God. A true church of Jesus Christ assembles together around the pulpit.
  • More time and attention is dedicated to healing and sharing experiences than to the declaration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
  • Their fellowship is based on similar experiences rather than on Jesus Christ in the written Word. Their fellowship is not in the doctrine of God, but in the gifts and in the experiences of those gifts.
You say that you support these points from Lawrence Justice. Since you have tried to separate the manifestations of the Spirit from the Gospel preached and the doctrine of God. I am wondering about the nature of your trinitarian God. There is one God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

But these statements by Lawrence Justice are loaded presuppositions. I don't have the time at the moment to expose these presuppositions with a biblical exposition, one by one. But this I know is that when the church gathers, this is what should be happening (which is a far cry from services in most evangelical churches):

I can almost imagine Paul, the apostle, having a theological fit when he compares what he wrote in this verse with what is happening in today's churches - that have essentially closed down the gifts of everyday believers when the church gathers.

In Christ, Oz

How many times have you visited a Church of God?

How many times have you heard the Pastor as I have say to the congregation "Lets pray in tongues"?

When you were baptized, did you speak in tongues?

Here again, you jumped all over my article without seeing the big picture.

Secondly, having a brother that prefered to go to a Church of God, I know what Pentecostalism does.

Having a brother-in-law who was born and raised in a Church of God, he would bear witness to the truth about what Lawrence Justice has said.

And it has been my experience that Pentecostalism, does place more emphasis on the speaking in tongues than anything else.

My brother-in-law Spiritwarrior47 (member here) would agree as to what I just posted.

Paul also said something to the effect that does everybody in the church get the same gift?

If I walk into a Church of God and there are 500 members speaking in tongues, that is wrong and not scriptural.

Now I'm not a cessationalist, I do believe that the gifts are for today as much as 2000 years ago. Just not to the extent as the CoG believes and practices.

And if you would take the time to read what he said rather than nit-pick what I post, you would see his emphasis is on the abuse and over emphais of said gifts.

Pick, pick, pick.

Geez...

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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