while I appreciate the effort in all your post, the simplicity of my question is this, according to 1 Corinthians 12 the apostles and Paul make mention of many supernatural Holy Spirit giftings given to believers, they either continue until the return of Jesus Christ (when perfection comes) or you have come to believe the church no longer needs them,
I'm not sure why you would want to conclude we nolonger need this direct direction and leadership of the Holy Spirit, for even the bible teaches that God would send Him in place of Christ, while He was apart from us
Hello B2TB, sorry this reply is so long in coming but I have been a little tied up.
You mistakenly apply beliefs that are not my own. I have never implied, much less concluded, that "we nolonger need this direct direction and leadership of the Holy Spirit," but have stated that I believe that certain gifts were for the purpose of establishing the Church, and at this time they are not utilized in the clearly consistent manner in which they were employed at that time.
Two different things altogether.
To say that all things, including the gifts, must be done just as they were in the early Church is a bit misleading, seeing that if that is so, why do we not see true Apostles consistently healing, performing miracles, raising the dead...
?
God gave to them gifts that were for a sign, that it might be known that He was moving among them, doing a work. He did exactly that among the children of Israel in Egypt and the Exodus. Yet when the Lord came, we do not see the same miinstry in Israel. Partly, I believe, because Israel had fallen into sin and were judged. We could make a correlation today in Modern Christendom (which I define as the visible "church," to be distinguished from the Body of Christ). The letters to the Seven Churches in Revelation are, I believe, representative of sin within the visible Church. We know from several epistles, as well as from the Lord Himself, that there will be among the true believers those that are not believers, but unbelievers that resemble believers. They will teach false doctrine for gain.
Now let me just say this, before I go any further: I know quite a few charismatic believers and while I disagree with their doctrine on a numbers of fronts, I do not assume to judge their spiritual condition. Just as I do not assume that of anyone. Nor, on the other hand, do I assume they are saved. Salvation is not evidenced by showy gifts, or spectacular phenomena, but by a sound basis which has for a foundation Jesus Christ. It is evidenced by endurance. We all have to learn and none of us are saved having a thorough knowledge of Christ and His word. There will be positions we will abandon as we grow. So if salvation is evidenced by doctrinal flawlessness, then, lol, we should all count ourselves as not being saved, for all of us have infantile understanding when we are saved.
But this I believe, we are commanded to "work out." And we do this by study, prayer, and application of that which we learn. And we see in retrospect that which the Lord is working in our lives, though we may not see it as it is progressing. Think back to when you were saved: were there beliefs that you held which now you do not? If so...why is it that your position changed? I would guess it would be because of your study and time spent with the Lord.
Okay, again, sorry for taking so long to get back to you, and I hope to get the chance to continue discussion. I have a few more irons to get out of the fire and sharpen, lol, but always glad for any conversation.
God bless.
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