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What do Baptists believe about speaking in tongues?

Discussion in 'Baptists' started by Ave Maria, Nov 1, 2004.

  1. P1LGR1M

    P1LGR1M Stranger

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    Hello Oz, thanks for the response, but I have to say I am a little disappointed.

    First I would say that if my response (which was admittedly hurried) was not sufficient, nor did it dignify a persoanl repsonse to not only what was said but accompanied by a scriptural basis, we can discuss it in greater detail.

    Secondly, and this goes hand in hand with that mentioned above, an appeal to those found in Church history does not negate your responsibility to answer some very simple questions asked in my response to you. Here is just one:

    There is a difference between the Lord performing miracles in the Body in this current time and those that have the gift of miracles.

    Third, and lastly, as I am out of time, I would ask for a response backed up with a biblical basis. Are Spurgeon and Irenaeus authoritative and we can accept what they teach as unquestionable truth?

    Let me ask you a question about the "experience" of Spurgeon concerning the man that worked on the Sabbath...is it unlawful for a Christian to work on the Sabbath?

    For that matter, my friend, please tell which Sabbath Spurgeon referred to? Was it Saturday, or was it the Christian Sabbath.

    Sorry, but I am not all that impressed with copy and paste responses. Perhaps you might dignify my response with one of your own, addressing it as I addressed yours: point by point.


    1 Corinthians 13

    King James Version (KJV)



    9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

    10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

    11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

    12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


    I see nothing in the text to infer that tongues are in view. I mentioned that in my response. Tongues are not said to be in part, so it would seem to me that if Paul did not mean that tongues would cease, he would have said, "we know in part, and we prophesy in part...and we speak tongues in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

    Okay, I have spent the day here, and must be going. I look forward to getting to know you, Oz, and discussing scripture with you.

    God bless.
     
  2. P1LGR1M

    P1LGR1M Stranger

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    You missed one.

    Just kidding, lol.

    God bless.
     
  3. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    Pilgrim,

    Do you know of logical fallacies? You have committed one of them known as the straw man logical fallacy. With this straw man fallacy, you have stacked the deck against my view by drawing a false picture of my argument. Your straw man wants to make my view that of requiring permanent gifts of healing and miracles. That is NOT biblical Christianity as these following verses indicate.

    This is what 1 Corinthians 12 states:

    Gifts of the Holy Spirit, including the gifts of healing and miracles, are not permanent gifts. They are gifts, like the other gifts of the Spirit, that the Holy Spirit gives for an occasion and they are given as the Spirit 'apportions to each one individually as he wills'.

    Your straw man is that you want these to be permanent gifts so that you and I can recognise those with the permanent gifts of healing and miracles. That is not what the Scriptures teach.

    Oz
     
  4. Michaelismyname

    Michaelismyname Active Member

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    Then you should not be speaking about it...at all.

    and you ? having only denied ? should you be speaking of the things of the spirit having never experienced (to our knowledge ) the things of the spirit ?

    it is theory what you speak . and only theory - it is much like a person teaching others how to build a fire having never built one yourself .
    i have shown plainly the scriptural foundation - you have rejected it in unbelief - thats all .it has not fit with your preconceived stance of how things should be .so you reject it .
    either you believe what the lord Jesus has said and promised- or you do not.
    i have testified - am i a liar ? I assure you in the name of Jesus - I spoke the truth .
     
  5. Michaelismyname

    Michaelismyname Active Member

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    lol you have dissected the bible so much you have watered it down to where it is ineffectual
    then you have done the same to my testimony

    you nee to be honest and just say what we can all see .

    your an unbeliever when it comes to things of the Spirit .
     
  6. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    Micheal,

    I urge you to extend the courtesy to all of us by telling us to whom you are replying. You wrote this directly after what I wrote. Were you referring to my post or another?

    Oz
     
  7. P1LGR1M

    P1LGR1M Stranger

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    He was quoting me.

    God bless.
     
  8. P1LGR1M

    P1LGR1M Stranger

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    Hello Michael, first, notice where you quoted me: I highlighted this and then hit the "quote prompt:"
    [​IMG]


    I am curious to see if the picture will appear in the response.

    Okay, on to the response:

    Just because I do not believe that the modern tongues movement is valid but view it as a counterfeit even as the practice for which the Corinthians were rebuked for, does not mean that I deny the work of God in my, or others' lives.

    But what I do not need to do is list my experiences to try to prove to people that I am saved or that I am "super-spiritual," nor will I allow my experience to replace scripture as an authoritative guide to that which I do believe.


    Theory is easily put to the test. And it is done by examination of what God has already said. I have supplied more than enough occasion for you to rebuke me with the word of God, with the word of God, yet there has been no argument supplied concerning the scriptural basis which founds my beliefs.

    Surely this has not escaped your attention?

    Not unbelief...there was nothing but experiences offered. There was nothing to instill belief, and worse, it was geared to simply believe you...not the word of God.

    I am a firm believer in the gift of tongues, but I see it as a miraculous ability to speak known languages that one has never learned before.

    It is a sign to unbelievers, and to this day I have yet to hear of the first person that has been convinced that God was giving a sign unto them. The modern phenomena is primarily a badge of honor and used for self edification, it is usually done contrary to Paul's teaching, and the end result is just as Paul said it would be...unbelievers think those doing it are mad.

    Go to an atheist forum, this is one of the primary reasons unbelievers blaspeme the name of Christ.

    Now if the true gift were employed, the unbeliever would convinced, he would be convicted, and hopefully, he would be converted.

    It has not fit the biblical model.

    You have failed to answer some very simple questions in my responses. Again I will ask, did you begin speaking in tongues immediately apart from any "practice?"

    Be honest, foremost with yourself. This is not about me.

    Not only do I believe that spoken by the Lord, but I gave detailed scriptural basis outlining what He has said and what I interpret it to mean.

    You assume that I simply parrot what I have taught, but I can assure you, I do not. I study and I test the spirits to the best of my ability.

    You understand that God also gifts men to understand His word, right? That apart from Him, one cannot understand?

    And I made it clear that I do not question your sincerity, so please dispense questions that are irrelevant to what I have said.

    And I believe that, Michael. Look, you believe what you believe. Conversations with me will not change that. As it is said, "I do not want to change anyone's mind, because someone can come along behind me and change it back."

    But if God does the instructing, our minds will not need to be changed, for our hearts will be. And I believe both of us are sincere in our beliefs, and believe that the Lord has Himself instructed us. But that does not mean we cannot have a conversation discussing why we believe the way we do, does it?

    God bless.
     
  9. P1LGR1M

    P1LGR1M Stranger

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    Again, believing in the modern tongues movement is not the pinnacle of belief in spiritual activity. It is a small portion of all there is to consider about this.

    Here are a few other spiritual works that I feel take precedence over the gifts we are given:

    Love

    Joy

    Peace

    If more people concentrated on the fruit of the Spirit, as well as the fruit produced in the spirit, and a careful examination of self...the world would certainly be a different place. People go on Christian forums and think, "Why would I want to be a part of that?"

    Very sad.

    I would encourage you to put aside emotion. If I am wrong, it changes nothing. If I am right, well...

    But, I cannot participate in emotional response, my goal is discussion for the purpose of better understanding God and His word. And I believe this can be achieved when believers replicate this:


    Malachi 3:16

    King James Version (KJV)


    16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.


    God bless.
     
  10. P1LGR1M

    P1LGR1M Stranger

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    Hello Oz, and yes I am quite familiar with logical fallacies, but I must admit this is the first time I can remember a Christian employing this tactic in discussion. Usually, only atheists make such appeals to avoid responding in discussion.

    What is interesting is that you charge me with this, then go on to do exactly what you charge me with, lol.

    Though we might replace the "straw man" with a "true scotsman," lol.

    I have haird there be such a parson...lol.



    Just not the case.

    And the record will show that.

    In any case, all I ask is a response with a scriptural presentation for why I am in error. That is simple enough, isn't it? Logical fallacies aside?

    And I view it as you have stacked the deck against yourself, my friend. And you do so again in this post.

    You asked where the scripture says tongues have ceased, did you not? I supplied what I believe to be Paul specifically saying they will. I pointed out in the second post that concerning the eternal state...tongues are not mentioned.

    And you choose to focus on the question I posed to you, disregarding scripture and my position concerning it.

    I would like to also hear a response as to which Sabbath Spurgeon was referring to, as well as the associated questions. That in itself will make for great discussion, though it take the discussion a wee bit off target.

    Wait...what? You don't seriously want to pursue this train of reasoning, do you? Think about what you are saying, Oz. You are inserting a dividing line in the text, which dividing line does not exist.

    I encourage you to consider the reason you might do so.

    What the text does say is this:


    1 Corinthians 12

    King James Version (KJV)



    7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

    8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

    9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

    10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:



    Irregardless of whether they were "temporary" rather than gifts given to specific members, as Paul indicates here:


    28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

    29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

    30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?


    ...we still see this gift listed among the others. Shall we say that the Apostles ran under a gift that was sometimes employed, sometimes not? Were prophets and teachers...sometimes prophets and teachers, sometimes not?

    But his "division" is among the members, not the gifts, meaning some were gifted with this gift, some with others, but not everyone had the same gift.


    No straw man involved.

    Lets look at your statement without interruption:

    A little disjointed, Oz. Sorry. If tongues are a gift that is still active, then where is the division making miracles and healings to have ceased?

    Paul makes no such division, with the exception of tongues, which has already been commented on, and is merely awaiting a response.



    So why is it that it is accepted that the gift of tongues is still employed, yet not miracles? How is it that those that are gifted with tongues do so on a regular basis, yet concerning healings and miracles...they do not?

    Do you see the incosistency in such reasoning?

    Agreed, but different reasons.

    God bless.
     
  11. back2thebible

    back2thebible Member

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    Sigh.....its sad how some people just don't get it, it being the scriptures must be read in context to understand them, and understanding the bible says THAT THERE ARE MORE THAN ONE WORKING OF A GIFT


    There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work. 1 Cor. 12:4-6

    your under the impression that all tongues were used to talk to men of other languages, yet this scripture contradicts your theory



    1 Cor.14:4-6
    For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

    whats even stranger is under your understanding, given the first sign of tongues were the disciples declaring the wonders of God, no where in the bible does it say they were preaching the gospel to people who otherwise wouldn't of understood them but it only says they were declaring the wonders of God..........not really sure why declaring the wonders of God was only needed for that time period, I think declaring the wonders of God will continue on eternally

    also at the time of pentecost we see or have no record of any of the disciples displaying the gift of interpretation, where by they ministered to these people who your under the impression they received the gospel

    again you can't even grasp what the gift of interpretation is like, when a person speaks in the gift of tongues, if the Holy Spirit gives another person the gift of interpretation, the interpreter in no way shape or form, can speak or even interpret what that person is saying word by word

    Thats why its so supernaturally of God, the interpreter receives what is being said by the Spirit of God and it is so unbelievably fantastic that it would probably freak you right out.

    sadly since most of what you witness of people and churches working in some of the gifts, have soured anyones confidence that they are for today, consider what greater tactic would satan use, to keep blood bought children of the most high God, away from the most powerful weapons they could attain

    gift of miracles, gift of healings, gift of wisdom, gift of knowledge, gift of prophesy,

    forget tongues if they are so abused and it upsets you, it upsets me too But how can any Christian in they're right mind think that the rest of the gifts seen above have no place or need in todays world........how many more young people would be drawn if their faith actually was followed with power.

    This was what drew people to Christ, this is what drew people to His disciples........the power of the Holy Spirit dropped two people dead for testing the Holy Spirit........and you are on the threshold of denying His power in the gifts that God's word said He would pour out on His people

    actually there is a scripture refering to the last days when people would have a form of Christianity but deny its power

    But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.
     
  12. P1LGR1M

    P1LGR1M Stranger

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    Hello again, thought I would comment on our post.

    What is meant is that not all workings are the same. Not that there are two types of language gifts.

    Just as the gifts differ, as the services differ, even so the workings differ. You would need to target v.4 to make a case that the gift of tongues both refers to languages...and an "unknown" tongue. You would then need to verify this by comparing it with other scripture.

    What is missed the contrast for the purpose of rebuke. Paul goes on to say that if you do not speak words easily understandable...you are speaking into the air. Eliminating all doubt as to the intent of the instruction.



    And when the "wonders of God are spoken," is it not in praise of God for that which He has wrought?

    And on the Day of Pentecost, what work would the disciples be praising, but the very Gospel itself?

    Let's see Peter comment on what they were doing:


    Acts 2:13-18

    King James Version (KJV)


    13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

    14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

    15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

    16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

    17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

    18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:



    Joel 2:28-32

    King James Version (KJV)


    28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

    29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

    30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

    31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

    32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.



    Now, I am not the greatest mathematician, but if the Gospel is clear that there is none other name under Heaven given among men whereby we must be saved...what wonderful work do you suppose was on the hearts of the disciples?

    What name do we think would be praised on this day?

    How one could seek to to divorce the Gospel from that which the disciples spoke is nothing less than amazing.

    All to bolster a particular doctrinal belief.


    Continued...
     
  13. P1LGR1M

    P1LGR1M Stranger

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    It will, but keep in mind that God had wrought a work which had been prophesied of old as well as taught by the Lord Himself.


    Acts 2:21-24

    King James Version (KJV)


    21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.



    The implication of the prophecy found in Joel, quoted here, is that men would call on the Lord.

    Is there another name man will call upon for salvation?






    Totally irrelevant.

    Not to mention an assumption that can be countered with looking at the events: How exactly did Peter know they were fulfilling prophecy?





    And we see Paul demand it if it occurs in the Church. And he commands that it be for the purpose of edification, and the context show the collective body is in view:


    1 Corinthians 14:26

    King James Version (KJV)


    26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.



    The problem is that there was confusion as every sought to display their spirituality. That is the only possible interpretation I see in this.




    And you have witnessed a valid instance of interpretation? Do you have this gift?

    Not being a wise guy, I would like to know your answer.





    And this I agree with. And it is primarily because they have exchanged the true gift, which involves actual languages, for a counterfeit that many religions in the world employ, such as the practice associated with the Oracle of Delphi.





    This is not what Paul taught:


    1 Corinthians 12

    King James Version (KJV)

    29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

    30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

    31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.


    After discussing the gifts, Paul shows a more excellent way, found in ch.13, which is...love.

    In other words, love trumps the gifts.

    1 Corinthians 13

    King James Version (KJV)

    13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.


    No gift substitutes this basic aspect of the Christian life.


    And when it comes to weapons (which is a strange way to designate a gift meant for edification of the body, suggesting we turn weapons on each other) there is no greater weapon in our arsenal than the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.





    So produce the miracles, the healings, the raising from the dead...

    I am a firm believer that these things do take place today, but...I do not believe in healers, miracle workers, or that there are those that on a consistent basis go around and raise the dead.

    The burden is on you to produce them.





    Just not biblically correct. Consider the word of the Lord:


    Luke 16:27-31

    King James Version (KJV)


    27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

    28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

    29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

    30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

    31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.



    How true this is. The children of Israel received the Gospel (though revelation in detail was withheld from them concerning Christ) and saw miracles...and they were not saved.

    The Lord Himself walked among man, healing, raising the dead, working miracles...and they were not saved.

    Those who seek after a sign are, according to the Lord, an evil an adulterous generation. That was true in the first century, and it remains true today.


    Continued...
     
  14. P1LGR1M

    P1LGR1M Stranger

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    Sorry, but I would ask you to produce one person, that when Christ went to the Cross...abided in the Lord.

    It is true that people were drawn to Him because of the miracles, but, that was simply because they were self-seeking. We cannot attribute salvific value to their response. To do so is a mistake.

    Not until the Day of Pentecost, when as foretold by Christ, the Comforter is sent as He ascended. As He said...


    John 16:7

    King James Version (KJV)


    7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you



    And if you notice, the sign of tongues did exactly what it was intended to do, exactly as Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians 14...it led to saving faith and people were added to the Church, the Body.






    Are you implying that this man is in danger of death because he does not embrace your doctrine?

    My friend, I would be very careful sitting in a place of judgment that is not given to you.






    Are you implying this man is to be counted among those listed here?

    Consider this: if the position that rejects ecstatic speech is in error, and in fact the modern phenomena is of the Lord, how exactly do you think the Lord will deal with those that do not subscribe to it?

    Now consider the opposite: if it is not of the Lord, but a doctrine and practice of man's own devising, found in many cults and false religions around the world that hold equally heretical doctrines and practices...how then will the Lord deal with them?

    Thankfully we can know for a surety that the Lord does not deal death to His children for doctrinal errors such as these, except it be that these errors are used to promote sinful practice and eminate from an evil heart (and that is supposition on my part, I want that to be known). Just as He is not going to kill someone for their position concerning OSAS< the Rapture, et cetera.

    All of us begin as children, having a knowledge likened many times to that of children in scripture, not to mention the corresponding practice. God will handle His children far better than the best human parent, and you suggest He will kill someone for their rejection of a doctrine that resembles far more closely that found in cults and false religion, and which can be seen to be practiced contrary to that which scripture prescribes.

    Amazing.

    And I would ask you, when is the last time you witnessed someone being struck dead for lying to the Holy Ghost? Why doesn't this happen often, given the state of the Church as a whole today, and all that is found in Modern Christendom?

    Honestly, it would be better to acknowledge there are just going to be people that disagree with us, there is no need to be breathing out threatenings.

    God bless.
     
  15. back2thebible

    back2thebible Member

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    well if you kept it bit more simple, rather than a three page dissertation, I would try to comment on all you're rebutals, but I'm inclined to believe unless you are struck like the apostle Paul nobody will change you're mind.

    I have only this; was Peter correct when he declared what was happening was the fulfilment of the prophet Joel, and if you believe that to be true, which days would be considered more the LAST DAYS.........almost 2,000 yrs ago or the days in which we live in

    ......I'm no mathmatician either but until the sun is darkened and the moon turns to blood, and perfection comes the work of the Holy Spirit will still be in full swing, certainly I understand not everyone is a hand or a foot.

    I leave you with this, there are no counterfeits were originals do not exist
     
  16. P1LGR1M

    P1LGR1M Stranger

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    Again...amazing.

    So Peter was in error?

    We see in scripture a partial fulfillment here which ultimately will see entire fulfillment in the Ttribulation. Keep in mind that there is a need for prophecy concerning Israel to still be fulfilled, such as her restoration, meaning, the prophesied Kingdom promised her has not yet been fulfilled.

    But the bottom line is that Peter says it is a fulfillment of Joel, and the only way to see it differently is to conclude Peter, and scripture, to be in error.

    Short enough?

    :thumbsup:
     
  17. back2thebible

    back2thebible Member

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    I'm not saying Peter was in error, are you? I'm in total agreement that the Holy Spirit was speaking through Peter that day, when he said this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel

    will pour out my Spirit in those days.
    30 I will show wonders in the heavens
    and on the earth,
    blood and fire and billows of smoke.
    31 The sun will be turned to darkness
    and the moon to blood
    before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
    32 And everyone who calls
    on the name of the Lord will be saved;
    for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
    there will be deliverance,
    as the Lord has said,
    even among the survivors
    whom the Lord calls.[a]



    I don't see where the disagreement could lay, certainly we understand Christ has not come yet, and this out-pouring of the Holy Spirit happens before Christ comes..........whats your point.....all I said was the prophet Joel declared the out-pouring in the last days, how much more are we into the last days than 2000 years ago? or are you saying what Peter and the disciples experienced was not the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, and we are still waiting for it?
     
  18. P1LGR1M

    P1LGR1M Stranger

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    Hello again B2TB, I have to apologize, lol, I should know better than give short responses, especially when I am in a hurry.

    No, Peter was not in error. The point is focused on the languages spoken by the disciples and what would have been the wonderful works they would have been proclaiming. An excuse to place two gifts in scripture is created by saying, "The disciples merely praised God...they were not proclaiming the Gospel."

    But...the prophecy is the Gospel in the Old Testament standard. It spoke of Christ, though not with the detail as we are afforded in the New Testament.

    The two gifts created are known languages and an unknown language. The events in Acts are separated from Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians, whereby any "language" can fall under the header of "the gifts of languages."

    Okay, good. Now direct your attention to Peter's statement here...


    Acts 2:13-18

    King James Version (KJV)

    16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;


    ...he was referring to the proclamation of the disciples.

    And like I said before, we can see that the Lord was in view:


    Acts 2:21-24

    King James Version (KJV)

    21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    And I think you would agree that the name in view is that of Jesus Christ.


    Depends upon how one views prophecy, really. If, like me, one views prophecy to at times to have near and far fulfillment (such as we see in Daniel, where Antiochus Epiphanes could be viewed as a "forerunner" and model of Antichrist) as well as a partial fulfillment (such as we see in salvation through Christ being established among believing Jews and Gentiles, but not for those it is said will come to specifically, National Israel), then this passage does not bring the accuracy of prophecy into question.

    There is, according to Peter, a fulfillment that is said under inspiration to occur on that day, but, we know from two things, 1) prophecy and promise never goes unfulfilled (lest the Lord seem to retract promise) and 2) we are to Apostles at later dates that the prophecy has still a future fulfillment.

    Here is an example:

    God promised rest unto Israel, that rest was entrance into the promised land, which was eventually fulfilled. Israel did come into the land, but the promise still held fulfillment.


    Psalm 95

    King James Version (KJV)


    7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,

    8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

    9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.

    10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:

    11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.



    This was given in the time of David. Now we go to Hebrews, where many millennia later we see the writer of Hebrews once again incorporating these words to represent "rest" in Christ, in which we could see a fulfillment that has an eye (according to a majority contextual overview) toward spiritual rest, rather than entrance into the promised land:


    Hebrews 3:7-12

    King James Version (KJV)


    7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

    8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

    9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

    10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

    11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

    12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.



    The dire warning here is to those of the Hebrew Nation (and has it's application to believers today as well) not to follow the example of the children of Israel in the wilderness, but to enter that "rest." The reason given for their failure to enter is "an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." He also makes it certain as to why they did not enter:


    19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.


    We see similar exhortations elsewhere where we are called to examine ourselves, whether we be in the faith, and to make our calling and election sure. The whole point is, "Don't take for granted you are saved..make sure!"

    But the thing to notice in the writer's words is that again we see a fulfillment whereby entrance to rest is spoken of, yet it does not refer to entrance to the temporal promised land, but salvation in Christ.

    He goes on to say:


    Hebrews 4

    King James Version (KJV)


    1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

    2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

    3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.



    Now, the writer uses this statement (the quote, not the emboldened portion) to refer to salvation, but we have seen it applied to entrance to Canaan as well. Two applications for the same text, and it is my belief that just as Joel will be fulfilled ultimately in the Tribulation, even so this will find it's ultimate fulfillment in the Eternal State.

    But, we see it fulfilled in the writer's words above, "We which have believed do enter rest." So we see a temporal application, as well as one focusing on the spiritual. And as I said, I believe we will also see it fulfilled in the Eternal.

    I hope the above better explains how I view Peter's words, which would to mean exactly what he says, but I would not limit that to that period.

    I am not sure what you mean by this.

    God bless.
     
  19. back2thebible

    back2thebible Member

    228
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    while I appreciate the effort in all your post, the simplicity of my question is this, according to 1 Corinthians 12 the apostles and Paul make mention of many supernatural Holy Spirit giftings given to believers, they either continue until the return of Jesus Christ (when perfection comes) or you have come to believe the church no longer needs them,

    I'm not sure why you would want to conclude we nolonger need this direct direction and leadership of the Holy Spirit, for even the bible teaches that God would send Him in place of Christ, while He was apart from us
     
  20. Michaelismyname

    Michaelismyname Active Member

    962
    +21
    Messianic
    Private
    probably a typo error on your part but ;love ,joy ,peace etc are not works but fruits.

    I have never seperated the gift of tongues from things of the Holy Spirit. Quite the opposite -i have maintained that it is a part of all the things and gifts of the Holy Spirit, who is the manifestation of God himself presently on the earth.
    it is not I who limit him who is eternal and whose word is faithful and true .it is they who say the God of yesterday cannot do the same works in us today - it is they who place thier theoretic limitations on God .

    I find it presumptious of folk to argue and state what God cannot do .Especially to those who have experienced what he DOES DO.
     
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