What do Baptists believe about speaking in tongues?

[joseph10]

I was saved at 6, Got the Holy Spirit at 38 as in a great wind, the comforter came at 42. but have had visions from the age of 6. Ran over by a glaxey 500 head own when i was 2 and crossing the road. Bounced me 100 foot off into a field, not a mark. Drove a car off a 90 high drop at the age of 17. Car was caught in mid air. it was a 1962 impala sport coupe on the roof it was like a gaint hand had grabbed the car the windshield was pressed down at the upper corners. But the paint was in tact. Had a tank bake over me in the military a guy was sitting on the tracks of another tank and reached out and grabbed me as i fall and pulled me up onto the other tank track. It was impossible. He was a angle. I was under the other tanks tracks. i had fall under them and no natural man could do that period. The list is endless. God is faithful.

 

[phoenixdem]

I was saved at 6, Got the Holy Spirit at 38 as in a great wind, the comforter came at 42. but have had visions from the age of 6. Ran over by a glaxey 500 head own when i was 2 and crossing the road. Bounced me 100 foot off into a field, not a mark. Drove a car off a 90 high drop at the age of 17. Car was caught in mid air. it was a 1962 impala sport coupe on the roof it was like a gaint hand had grabbed the car the windshield was pressed down at the upper corners. But the paint was in tact. Had a tank bake over me in the military a guy was sitting on the tracks of another tank and reached out and grabbed me as i fall and pulled me up onto the other tank track. It was impossible. He was a angle. I was under the other tanks tracks. i had fall under them and no natural man could do that period. The list is endless. God is faithful.

Joseph, can you answer my question about people not dying in the past and not all will die in the future?

 

[Michaelismyname]

Joseph, what would you say if I told you that not all men have died in the past and not all men will die in the future?

- i would say - its amazing you followed what he said because i'm still trying to decipher that .

and your about to sidetrack a whole lot

 

[phoenixdem]

- i would say - its amazing you followed what he said because i'm still trying to decipher that .

and your about to sidetrack a whole lot

I certainly can't understand everything he types. I don't think that English is his first language. It really doesn't matter. He isn't going to answer revealing questions anyway.

 

[guuila]

I was saved at 6, Got the Holy Spirit at 38 as in a great wind, the comforter came at 42. but have had visions from the age of 6. Ran over by a glaxey 500 head own when i was 2 and crossing the road. Bounced me 100 foot off into a field, not a mark. Drove a car off a 90 high drop at the age of 17. Car was caught in mid air. it was a 1962 impala sport coupe on the roof it was like a gaint hand had grabbed the car the windshield was pressed down at the upper corners. But the paint was in tact. Had a tank bake over me in the military a guy was sitting on the tracks of another tank and reached out and grabbed me as i fall and pulled me up onto the other tank track. It was impossible. He was a angle. I was under the other tanks tracks. i had fall under them and no natural man could do that period. The list is endless. God is faithful.

And you're a Baptist?

 

[Michaelismyname]

And you're a Baptist?

do you mean -is he one who is baptized in water ?

 

[guuila]

do you mean -is he one who is baptized in water ?

No.

 

[Michaelismyname]

No.

may i inquire what your "present"belief on the gift of speaking in tongues is ?
it appears baptists are free to have differing views , being that they are not a cult which has its stance dictated to it with out allowance for reasoning

 

[Bella Vita]

I go to a southern Baptist church and we do not speak in tongues during our services. We believe that it is one of the gifts of the holy spirit but not everyone has it. And it has to be used in a certain way there must be a translate present as scripture tells us and they must speak an actual language not just a bunch of gibberish. In America during service is not really a time were tongues is needed on a mission trip to another country probably.

 

[guuila]

may i inquire what your "present"belief on the gift of speaking in tongues is ?
it appears baptists are free to have differing views , being that they are not a cult which has its stance dictated to it with out allowance for reasoning

I am a Reformed Baptist holding to the views presented in the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith. I believe this gift had a specific purpose during the time of the Apostles. I don't believe this gift exists today, as there is no need for it and Scripture doesn't present this as being the normative sign of a person who has been born of the Spirit. The fact that a person repents and believes is the normative sign that they have been born of God.

 

[Michaelismyname]

I am a Reformed Baptist holding to the views presented in the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith. I believe this gift had a specific purpose during the time of the Apostles. I don't believe this gift exists today, as there is no need for it and Scripture doesn't present this as being the normative sign of a person who has been born of the Spirit. The fact that a person repents and believes is the normative sign that they have been born of God.

what one believes
and what is ..

don't always align .

 

[P1LGR1M]

hi i wil reply as inserts into your post
- the reference in judging was not at you. sorry if you thought that -it was a general plea for all to be more gentle and not refuse things based -in honesty- only on the fact that they have not experienced something yet .
the exclusion of an experience does not automatically annul the truth of it.

Hello again Michael, thank you for the response. You begin and end your post with a focus on "experience." And what is both assumed and implied is that I or other Baptists do not recognize experience in our walk with the Lord, both of which are wrong. However, the "experiences" may differ, and that is not a matter of "doctrinal theory," but one of doctrinal surety.

Before getting into a response, and I am not sure how much I may get to this morning, I would like to ask if you know how to properly quote, so that when a response is made, all know who said what. In this response, you have my words in blue, yours in red, with the exception of one portion which may give the impression to the reader that I stated what you did. I would rather no-one ascribed another's word to me, so here are some basic quoting instructions:

When you respond to someone, and it comes up in the response page, you will see what they said immediately preceded by...

[/quote)[/SIZE]


I have changed the ] at the end of both so they do not function as they normally would, and have made it a ).


All that is necessary is to copy the

[/quote)[/SIZE]


...after each quote. So it would look like this:

[/quote)[/SIZE]


The easiest way is to separate each sentence or paragragh you want to respond to individually and then copy the

[/quote).[/SIZE]


Again, I have changed the bracket (]) at the end of these to a ) for the purpose of this example.

If you can learn to do this, it makes the discussion easier to follow as well as respond to.

Hope that helps.

Note-I tried to enlarge the code but for some reason it did not take, so I hope that does not confuse.

Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

hi i wil reply as inserts into your post
- the reference in judging was not at you. sorry if you thought that -it was a general plea for all to be more gentle and not refuse things based -in honesty- only on the fact that they have not experienced something yet .
the exclusion of an experience does not automatically annul the truth of it.

The usual explanation from those that profess to have miraculous gifts is that those that do not cannot understand because they have not "experienced it yet."

Yet it is odd that despite the fact that while all believers receive gifts from God, those that profess certain gifts...all have them.

So the reverse is equally true here: while it is true because one has not had an experience this does not mean that the experience is invalid, it is equally true that the "experiences" one may have had are not valid gifts of God, but the devising of the person themself. Seldom do those that have experiences question that which they experience, and even worse, seldom do they let the word of God measure those experiences.

Concerning the Baptism of the Holy Spirit: please define what you understand about this baptism and why you would believe it does not take place when one is born again.

ok on this I do not believe it can not take place - it should - but sadly people hearts are not always open to it and that can be the temporary fault of those who have preached the gospel to them - if they be ones who do not believe in such things then ,by default, they pass on their unbelief .

As you go on in your post you make it clear that your position is that people can be saved without having been baptized with the Spirit of God into the Body of Christ.

And it is this that I will focus on in this response.

But God is in no way hindered. he brings all ,later ,to a place where all can open their hearts in faith and receive .

Show me in scripture where "God brings man later to a place where all can open their hearts in faith and receive (the Spirit of God)?"

You also ascribe disbelief in doctrine and practice as being unbelief.But we will look at what scripture teaches, and then measure the position by that.

Experience is judged according to the word, not vice versa.

As I said, show me in scripture where subsequent "baptism" takes place. Show me how God's word has changed from...


Romans 8:9

King James Version (KJV)


9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


...to...

But God is in no way hindered. he brings all ,later ,to a place where all can open their hearts in faith and receive .

What you describe is exactly the passage of scripture you gave in your response:


Acts 19

King James Version (KJV)


1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.


...where we see, not a subsequent "baptism with the Holy Spirit," but disciples of John, who have not even heard enough about the Gospel of Jesus Christ to know that the Spirit of God is given to all those that believe.

They make this clear:


2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.



Thses men are not saved. What is it they believe and have been baptized in association with?


3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.




Did John proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ? No. John himself, while awaiting execution, sends his disciples to ask...


Matthew 11


2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,


3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?




John truthfully was the greatest of prophets, but, John did not survive unto the coming of the Comforter, apart from Whom...there is no salvation. The teaching that men can be saved without being baptized by Christ into the Body is from my study...error.

So show me in scripture where this teaching...

But God is in no way hindered. he brings all ,later ,to a place where all can open their hearts in faith and receive .

...can be found.

Continued...

 

[phoenixdem]

...

 

[P1LGR1M]

I often found it a point of interest that when hands were laid on -people were TOLD to receive .

So answer this question: did the Apostles transfer the Holy Spirit, as Simon the sorcerer supposed, or did they verify an ancient practice within the religion of the Jews by showing association with the laying on of Hands.

There are only two views here to choose from. Which one will you support?

Under the law the one offering sacrifice would lay hands on the sacrifice to show association with the sacrifice, wherein sin was symbolicly transferred to the sacrifice. It pictures association, belief, and agreement, such as we do even today.

But...we do not perform that which is effected, nor did the Apostles. They did not "give the Holy Spirit" to those they laid hands on.

much like if i had a glass of water and i gave it to you but you did not put it to your lips and drink - you would have the water but you would be in a state of not receiving the water .

It is nothing like that. This teaches that men can bestow the Holy Spirit, and that is just not the case.

What you are saying is that the Holy Spirit is a commodity, something that those that possess Him, who are indwelled by God...can give to whom they choose.

Receiving the Spirit of God is not the choice of man, but that of God. He first makes this possible because He is the one that through the word brings natural man (who is spiritually dead, not having life nor the Spirit of God) to the point of acceptance in which he can respond in faith, belief, and repentance. At that moment of acceptance he is indwelt by the Spirit of God.

It is part of the New Birth, in which the relationship man (Adam) had with God in the Garden is restored. Man is recreated, and is a new creature.

when a person believes in the lord Jesus (is saved) at that point they have the spirit of God.. but that does not automatically imply that they have taken him in(received )Him .

Show me this in scripture.

One cannot have the Spirit of God and not receive Him.

The confusion centers around the filling of the Spirit, which is effected through obedience and confomity to the will of God. When one grieves Him, they are not filled. But they are indwelt all the same.

Acts 19 displays this to be the case -both then and now .

New King James Version (NKJV)
Paul at Ephesus
19 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples 2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”-(an admission that they did not know so had not recived but are willing to )
3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
-----------

You pick a poor illustration for your teaching: disciples that had been baptized by John, and had never even heard of the Spirit of God.

Hear the words of John himself:

Matthew 3

King James Version (KJV)

10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:


Only two choices available to man: baptism with the Holy Ghost, and baptism with fire. The next verse makes it clear that the two choices result in two destinies:


12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


Only two choices, not three, as subsequence teaches. One will either be saved and baptized with the Spirit, or one will be judged and baptized with fire.

I cannot make any absolute statement in regard to when or why or when and why not in regard to the baptism of the Holy Ghost -i would be talking about things far too high and deep and wide for my comprehension.

-------------

Then you should not be speaking about it...at all.

That may sound harsh, but we will be held accountable to a higher degree if we teach, and it is vital that we are able to give the reason for the hope that is within us, not making doctrinal statements that we cannot provide a thorough scriptural basis for. Not offering experience in place of the word of God.


If we are offering opinion, that is okay, but we should make it clear it is just our opinion, not a doctrinal surety.


Continued...

 

[guuila]

what one believes
and what is ..

don't always align .

And? What is your point?

 

[back2thebible]

It really boils down to how much of the bible one believes, even some groups of the reformed faith don't believe that sorcery is a reality, or demon possessed people actually had supernatural abilities, such as ripping chains apart, or telling peoples fortune as the girl who made her masters a great fortune.

since they can't handle things that go beyond the things that are seen, they say things like sorcery was just like magicians of today who use smoke and mirrors, and the girl who told fortunes merely read people like the guy on tv that has the show "the mentalist"

I have to say there is a step of faith to the gifts of the Holy Spirit, not everyone has the same amount of faith, to be sure

ironically people who were once in the occult, have a better understanding than many Christians, simply because they understand that it wasn't the strange things in the rituals and concoctions that made witchcraft work, it was believing it would work that gave it its power.

even Jesus when in Mark 6:5-6

5 He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6 He was amazed at their lack of faith.


there is so much more behind faith and believing than meets the eye, infact it was Christ Himself who said if we had faith the size of a musturd seed we could speak to a mountain and it would be thrown into the sea..........either Jesus was telling us the truth or He was a liar.........before He left He said He was going to send His Holy Spirit, the bible tells us what the Spirit does, how He works, what He says if Christians would rather not have this Spirit working in they're lives and ministry thats completely their choice

 

[P1LGR1M]

Concerning tongues: please explain why you believe that there are two instances of languages found in the New Testament Church, that which takes place on Pentecost when the Holy Spirit comes to minister as the Comforter, and that which was spoken of by Paul in First Corinthians.

Im not sure why you think i believe their are two instances -

Only because...that is what you are teaching. It is the only available definition to take the languages spoken in Acts 2 and then make another language which is incomprehensible...and not have two "instances."

The KJV translators do a great job by inserting the word unknown in 1 Corinthians 14. And while on the part of some it has led to confusion and been used to validate that which Paul is rebuking the Corinthians for, we cannot lay the blame on the translators.

In Acts 2 the languages that were spoken were just that...languages. This is seen clearly in that those who hear are hearing in their own language.

Paul says to the Corinthians...


1 Corinthians 14

King James Version (KJV)

6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?


...and in this he is saying that if he speaks and does not speak that which conveys something understandable and edifying unto those he speaks to...it is unprofitable.

Im not sure why you think i believe their are two instances -

It is simply because you cannot teach that languages found in scripture are both that which we see in Acts 2 and a gift given to believers to edify themselves which has nothing to do with revelation, knowledge, prophesying, or doctrine.

Paul makes it abundantly clear that tongues are a sign, and there is no reason we should overlook his clear statement that all languages will serve an understandable purpose.

from the day the lord Jesus reconciled us to the father he made the way open for God to dwell in our hearts by the holy spirit and that is what the lord has been doing since that moment .

Show me where "making a way for the indwelling of God" equates to being born again.

A man that is not born again and indwelt by the Spirit of God...is not reconciled to God. This suggests that all men have been saved.

The work of Christ does not reconcile mankind to God, only faith in that work leading to salvation does.

it is not a singular even it is an ongoing relationship through the generation promised to every one who believes .

Salvation is a singular event, even as we see in the book of Acts. We see belief leading to the indwelling of God, evidenced in these instances by sign gifts, tongues being one of them.

In these events we see particular groups that are validated as having received salvation veen as the Jews had. And despite these validations we still see certain Jews unwilling to accept Gentile inclusion. Peter is a good example of hypocrisy concerning Gentiles, for which Paul rebuked him. Galatians addresses this same issue.

In Acts 2 we see Jews saved. In Acts 8 we the people of Samaria, hated by Jews in large part. In Acts 10...


Acts 10:44-46

King James Version (KJV)


44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,



No laying on of hands here, the Spirit comes upon them while Peter is preaching. And what happens here that is of great significance is seen in v.45, in that "they of the circumcision" were astonished. There will be those that will be dealt with that never learn this lesson, that salvation comes to all in every nation that fear God (vv. 34-36).


In Acts 19 we see those that are still following the preaching of John the Baptist, rather than the revelation given unto men following the Cross and Pentecost.

the down payment of our faith - the evidence the world so seeks that God is true -but cannot receive until they first put their faith in him,that is in his word made flesh .

And the truth is that the Spirit of God is received at salvation, it is foundational to the New Birth.


Ezekiel 36:23-27

King James Version (KJV)


23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



When the Lord asks of Nicodemus...


John 3:10

King James Version (KJV)


10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?



...it is to the promise of God which this "teacher" of Israel should have known He was referring to.

It is this promise that spoken of here:


Acts 10

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.






In other words, to teach that a man can be either saved or born again without being indwelled by God, having received the Holy Spirit...does not represent that which is taught in scripture.


Continued...

 

[back2thebible]

[/color]





So answer this question: did the Apostles transfer the Holy Spirit, as Simon the sorcerer supposed, or did they verify an ancient practice within the religion of the Jews by showing association with the laying on of Hands.

There are only two views here to choose from. Which one will you support?

Under the law the one offering sacrifice would lay hands on the sacrifice to show association with the sacrifice, wherein sin was symbolicly transferred to the sacrifice. It pictures association, belief, and agreement, such as we do even today.

But...we do not perform that which is effected, nor did the Apostles. They did not "give the Holy Spirit" to those they laid hands on.



[/color]





It is nothing like that. This teaches that men can bestow the Holy Spirit, and that is just not the case.

What you are saying is that the Holy Spirit is a commodity, something that those that possess Him, who are indwelled by God...can give to whom they choose.

Receiving the Spirit of God is not the choice of man, but that of God. He first makes this possible because He is the one that through the word brings natural man (who is spiritually dead, not having life nor the Spirit of God) to the point of acceptance in which he can respond in faith, belief, and repentance. At that moment of acceptance he is indwelt by the Spirit of God.

It is part of the New Birth, in which the relationship man (Adam) had with God in the Garden is restored. Man is recreated, and is a new creature.





Show me this in scripture.

One cannot have the Spirit of God and not receive Him.

The confusion centers around the filling of the Spirit, which is effected through obedience and confomity to the will of God. When one grieves Him, they are not filled. But they are indwelt all the same.



[/color]







You pick a poor illustration for your teaching: disciples that had been baptized by John, and had never even heard of the Spirit of God.

Hear the words of John himself:

Matthew 3

King James Version (KJV)

10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:


Only two choices available to man: baptism with the Holy Ghost, and baptism with fire. The next verse makes it clear that the two choices result in two destinies:


12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


Only two choices, not three, as subsequence teaches. One will either be saved and baptized with the Spirit, or one will be judged and baptized with fire.














Then you should not be speaking about it...at all.

That may sound harsh, but we will be held accountable to a higher degree if we teach, and it is vital that we are able to give the reason for the hope that is within us, not making doctrinal statements that we cannot provide a thorough scriptural basis for. Not offering experience in place of the word of God.


If we are offering opinion, that is okay, but we should make it clear it is just our opinion, not a doctrinal surety.


Continued...

its a whole nother topic but every Christian will be baptised in fire also, this fire is seen when we stand before Christ and every work that was built on the foundation of Christ that wasn't of Christ will be burned up some peoples whole ministry will be burned up yet they will escape through the flames......see 1 Corinthians 3:10-15

By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

and

Zechariah 13:9
This third I will put into the fire;
I will refine them like silver
and test them like gold.
They will call on my name
and I will answer them;
I will say, ‘They are my people,’
and they will say, ‘The Lord is our God.’”

 

[P1LGR1M]

It really boils down to how much of the bible one believes, even some groups of the reformed faith don't believe that sorcery is a reality, or demon possessed people actually had supernatural abilities, such as ripping chains apart, or telling peoples fortune as the girl who made her masters a great fortune.

since they can't handle things that go beyond the things that are seen, they say things like sorcery was just like magicians of today who use smoke and mirrors, and the girl who told fortunes merely read people like the guy on tv that has the show "the mentalist"

I have to say there is a step of faith to the gifts of the Holy Spirit, not everyone has the same amount of faith, to be sure

ironically people who were once in the occult, have a better understanding than many Christians, simply because they understand that it wasn't the strange things in the rituals and concoctions that made witchcraft work, it was believing it would work that gave it its power.

even Jesus when in Mark 6:5-6

5 He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6 He was amazed at their lack of faith.


there is so much more behind faith and believing than meets the eye, infact it was Christ Himself who said if we had faith the size of a musturd seed we could speak to a mountain and it would be thrown into the sea..........either Jesus was telling us the truth or He was a liar.........before He left He said He was going to send His Holy Spirit, the bible tells us what the Spirit does, how He works, what He says if Christians would rather not have this Spirit working in they're lives and ministry thats completely their choice

Hello back2thebible, nice to meet you.

What I would ask of you is this: what about the gifts concerning the word of God? In other words, we are also told that God gifts men to properly handle the word which if for the edification of the Body. How is it that these gifts are downplayed by the majority of those that adhere to certain positions involving the gifts given to the Body?

ironically people who were once in the occult, have a better understanding than many Christians, simply because they understand that it wasn't the strange things in the rituals and concoctions that made witchcraft work, it was believing it would work that gave it its power.

I am in the middle of a response right now, but did want to just comment on what you say, which implies that those that take a different position than those that seem to focus on the spectacular for some reason are made out not to believe that there is a supernatural element to salvation and within the body. Not saying that you are syaing this, exactly, but, concerning this statement above, I would suggestthat while it is true that those that benefit from satanic/demonic powers do have faith in those powers, we should keep in mind that it is the power behind them performing that which occurs, not the individuals themselves.

Okay, have to get back to the previous responses.

God bless.