What did Sha'ul (Paul) Say was Nailed to the Pale (Cross)?

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What you do is take a host of verses or cherry picked ones and take them out of context.

The 10 C's came from God through Moses and for thousands of years it is pretty obvious who they came from and why they followed them. What you all are doing is taking 1 letter from Paul to try to make a point, even though all of his other letters no where would even remotely states the 10 C's were temporary.


There you go cherry picking again with 1 Tim

1 Timothy 1:8-11
8 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers,[a] liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.


The law isnt for the righteous, because the righteous try to keep the commands of God. People who dont do all the sins that are listed in verses 9-11 are what we call born again believers, whether they are Christians, Messianic, Hebrew, etc.
I no longer try to keep any of the law. I'm under a much higher standard. I follow the leading of the Holy Spirit the Father sent as Jesus said He would.
If there is no law, you are free do to as you please, because you cant be held accountable for commands that dont exist anymore.
Not so. Grace doesn't grant permission to sin.
Like it or not, you do follow commands of God and believe others should, you just dont believe your own theology.
Yes Jesus is God and I believe 1 John 3:23
 
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I just wanted to post some verses regarding what Paul was not talking about being done away with or being nailed to the cross.

They relate to the Renewed Covenant, and what it means to have the Law written on our hearts in Hebrews 8:8-12, which is a quote from Jeremiah 31:31-34:
Since there's no such thing, the rest of your post is invalid and snipped.
 
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Neal of Zebulun

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Wow! This is a really good chapter! I hope you don't mind if I post my notes!:

2 Corinthians 3:
1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?​

2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:​

(That's an interesting metaphor! Of course Paul doesn't mean the people he's writing to are real epistles really written on his heart. That would be silly.)

3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.​

(Wow! Way to drive home the metaphor Paul! He's saying that they are the living embodiment of his epistles. Beautiful language. Of course, I don't think Paul wants us to do away with his physical epistles. That would just be off the wall, right? Also, looks like Paul's been reading the Old Testament again):

Proverbs 7:
1 My son, keep my words, and lay up my commandments with thee.​

2 Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.​

3 Bind them upon thy fingers, write them upon the table of thine heart.​

(It's the same metaphor, but this time speaking about the Law and not epistles. It means to grow a love for and be a living embodiment of the Law of Yahweh. Now, what else did Paul say here...):

2 Corinthians 3:
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:​

5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;​

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the Renewed Covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
(Whoa! So this is a metaphor for the two Covenants! The "spirit" is the Renewed, and the "letter" is the Old. If he literally meant "the letter killeth" then I wish he would have warned us not to read his epistles!)

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:​

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?​

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
(Ministration of "death" and "condemnation" is the Old Covenant, and "spirit" and "righteousness" the Renewed. We know he doesn't mean the Ten Commandments specifically, because those say nothing about death or condemnation. These are all metaphors for each Covenant as a whole, and not the particulars.)

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.​

11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
(So the Old Covenant, or contract is done away with. And what remaineth of it, like the Ten Commandments, is transferred to the Renewed Covenant under updated conditions. A similar thing happened between the Abrahamic Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant. We must remember, this is not the first time Yahweh has renewed His Covenant.)

12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:​

13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:​

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the Old Covenant; which vail is done away in Christ.
(Did you catch that?)

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to Yahweh, the vail shall be taken away.​

(Paul's talking about them reading the Old Testament incorrectly. He's not saying we need to throw it away, but that we need to read it correctly. Those who don't have a love for Yahweh don't understand it. And Paul would know, because he read the Old Testament frequently, even quoting it throughout his letters. So let us read it with the vail taken away by Christ!)

17 Now Yahweh is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of Yahweh is, there is liberty.​

18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of Yahweh, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of Yahweh.
(That is, without the vail over our face, we behold the glory of Yahweh by reading the Old and New Testament, and by respecting both the Old and Renewed Covenants. Amen!)

I know I can't remove the vail from the face of someone Yahweh doesn't want to remove it from, but I hope my notes were helpful!
 
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HARK!

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Shabbat Shalom, Neal of Zebulun


You've made some interesting analyses in this post; but on this particular point; let's not be hasty:

11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
(So the Old Covenant, or contract is done away with. And what remaineth of it, like the Ten Commandments, is transferred to the Renewed Covenant under updated conditions. A similar thing happened between the Abrahamic Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant. We must remember, this is not the first time Yahweh has renewed His Covenant.)

Let's take a closer look at what was done away with. I'll go back to verse seven.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

Here is a Concordant literal version translation of the same verse. It's a little more clear.

(CLV) 2Co 3:7
(Now if the dispensation of death, by letters chiseled in stone, came in glory, so that the sons of Israel were not able to look intently into the face of Moses, because of the glory of his face, which was being nullified,

The glory Of Moshe's face was being nullified

What was the glory of Moshe's face?


(CLV) Ex 34:29
It came to be when Moses descended- from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the testimony in Moses' hands, when he descended from the mount, that Moses did not realize that the skin of his face gleamed because of His speaking to him. (YHWH)

The glory was because of YHWH speaking to him. From this we can infer that it was YHWH's glory that was being nullified; when the people of Israel would not fellowship with him, and submit to his glory.

YHWH called all of Israel to come up to the mount to fellowship with him. They wouldn't come to the party. They were reluctant to see his glory; and they could barely tolerate to see the reflection of YHWH's glory in Moshe's face. Moshe had to put a veil on his face to conceal the glory of YHWH.

YHWH's glory was being nullified; because Israel's heart was not toward YHWH.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to Yahweh, the vail shall be taken away.



.
 
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Neal of Zebulun

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(CLV) 2Co 3:7
(Now if the dispensation of death, by letters chiseled in stone, came in glory, so that the sons of Israel were not able to look intently into the face of Moses, because of the glory of his face, which was being nullified,

The glory Of Moshe's face was being nullified

What was the glory of Moshe's face?

(CLV) Ex 34:29
It came to be when Moses descended- from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the testimony in Moses' hands, when he descended from the mount, that Moses did not realize that the skin of his face gleamed because of His speaking to him. (YHWH)

The glory was because of speaking to YHWH. From this we can infer that it was YHWH's glory that was being nullified; when the people of Israel would not fellowship with him, and submit to his glory.

YHWH called all of Israel to come up to the mount to fellowship with him. They wouldn't come to the party. They were reluctant to see his glory; and they could barely tolerate to see the reflection of YHWH's glory in Moshe's face. Moshe had to put a veil on his face to conceal the glory of YHWH.

YHWH's glory was being nullified; because Israel's heart was not toward YHWH.

That's a really good point! It reminds me of how they couldn't stand to hear His voice either, after He had spoken the 10 Commandments:

Exodus 20:
19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.​

20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.​

(Also see Deuteronomy 18:15-18)

Thanks for pointing this out, I don't think I realized how deep the meaning of this is before.

I don't know the Greek well enough, but several versions have "passing away" and the like, because it's like you say, it's not Moshe's glory but Yahweh's glory that was fading away from Moshe's face.

The KJV seems to be really badly translated there. I didn't get that idea at all while I was reading it!

I suppose what I was thinking about was some of the various aspects that are not practiced in the Christian Covenant as compared to the Mosaic. The primary one being the oath that if we practice the law perfectly, we will live (forever) by it. Only Christ managed that! Thank Yahweh His blood covers our mistakes, and that He has provided Salvation through Him!

Praise be to יהוה
 
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HARK!

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Thank Yahweh His blood covers our mistakes, and that He has provided Salvation through Him!

Glory to Yahweh; and glory to our brother Yahshua as he glorifies our Father!

הַלְּלוּיָהּ
 
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HARK!

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That's a really good point! It reminds me of how they couldn't stand to hear His voice either, after He had spoken the 10 Commandments:

Exodus 20:
19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
(Also see Deuteronomy 18:15-18)

You've made a really good point too. I've read through the Torah more times than I can remember; but I've missed that point until now.
 
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HARK!

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In Matt 5: 16-17 Jesus tell us Torah with its 10 commandments are fulfilled. What does fulfill mean? Well the dictionary tells me it means bring to an end.

Why did you stop short of verse 18?

(CLV) Mt 5:18
For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from the law till all should be occurring.

Heaven is still here. Earth is still here; and all of the prophecies have not yet been fulfilled.
 
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sparow

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Why did you stop short of verse 18?

(CLV) Mt 5:18
For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from the law till all should be occurring.

Heaven is still here. Earth is still here; and all of the prophecies have not yet been fulfilled.


<<<Bob S said: In Matt 5: 16-17 Jesus tell us Torah with its 10 commandments are fulfilled. What does fulfill mean? Well the dictionary tells me it means bring to an end.>>>


""Why did you stop short of verse 18?""


I am more or less on your side! Yet I disagree with both you and Bob-S. What a strange Bible version you use.

The old earth and the old heavens are still with us which means sin is still with us.


Because you failed to address the error in Bob S's statement I have to assume you do not disagree with him. Bob talks about the dictionary meaning of the word “fulfil”; and this is only secondary to his error; while the word can be used as Bob says; the dictionaries give many usages; regarding law , (not specifically Biblical Law), fulfil means to perform, execute, and do; while each performing, executing or doing may end, the Law remains for others to perform, execute, and do. The dictionary is not an authority on what words mean, it is an authority on what is the common usage of words; people who use the words determine what words mean. Our purpose now is to determine the meaning in Matt. 5:16-17.

Matthew 5:16-17 (NKJV)
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

This brings us to Bobs gigantic error or the error of the bulk of Christianity.

Simply put, in verse 17, fulfil is the opposite of destroy; paraphrased, “I did not come to abrogate but to not abrogate”.

Looking at different Bibles, two phrases are used; “the Law and the Prophets” and “the Law or the prophets”, but the distinction between and, and or is not relevant here be cause both are being fulfilled; but what Jesus is talking about is found else where. Bob assumes, or has been misled on this point, that Jesus did not come to destroy the Ten Commandments, but to fulfil the Ten commandments; this is both adding to and subtracting from scripture. What Jesus was to fulfil is explained by Luke.

Luke 24:44 (NKJV)
44 Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me."


As far as keeping the Commandments, nothing was expected of Jesus that what is expected of us; He probably had no occasion to repent of sin.
 
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HARK!

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Luke 24:44 (NKJV)
44 Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me."

Good stuff!
 
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