What did Sha'ul (Paul) Say was Nailed to the Pale (Cross)?

[HARK!]

Colossians 2:14 (CLV)

erasing the handwriting of the decrees against us, which was hostile to us, and has taken it away out of the midst, nailing it to the cross,


Lexicon :: Strong's G1378 - dogma

δόγμα
Transliteration
dogma
Pronunciation
do'g-mä (Key)

Part of Speech
neuter noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From the base of δοκέω (G1380)
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry

TDNT Reference: 2:230,178

KJV Translation Count — Total: 5x
The KJV translates Strong's G1378 in the following manner: decree (3x), ordinance (2x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. doctrine, decree, ordinance
   1. of public decrees
      
      
   2. of the Roman Senate
      
      
   3. of rulers
2. the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment
   
   
3. of certain decrees of the apostles relative to right living

Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
δόγμα dógma, dog'-mah; from the base of G1380; a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical):—decree, ordinance.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon [?] (Jump to Scripture Index)
STRONGS NT 1378: δόγμα
δόγμα, δογματος, τό (from δοκέω, and equivalent to τό δεδογμενον), an opinion, a judgment (Plato, others), doctrine, decree, ordinance;
1. of public decrees (as τῆς πόλεως, Plato, legg. 1, p. 644 d.; of the Roman Senate (Polybius 6, 13, 2); Herodian, 7, 10, 8 (5, Bekker edition)): of rulers, Luke 2:1; Acts 17:7; Hebrews 11:23 Lachmann (Theod. in Daniel 2:13; Daniel 3:10; Daniel 4:3; Daniel 6:13, etc. — where the Sept. uses other words).
2. of the rules and requirements of the law of Moses, 3Macc. 1:3; διατήρησις τῶν ἁγίων δογμάτων, Philo, alleg. legg. i., § 16; carrying a suggestion of severity, and of threatened punishment, τόν νόμον τῶν ἐντολῶν ἐν δογμασι, the law containing precepts in the form of decrees (A. V. the law of commandments contained in ordinances), Ephesians 2:15; τό καθ' ἡμῶν χειρόγραφον τοῖς δογμασι equivalent to τό τοῖς δογμασι (dative of instrument) by ὄν καθ' ἡμῶν, the bond against us by its decrees, Colossians 2:14; cf. Winers Grammar, § 31, 10 Note 1 (Buttmann, 92 (80); on both passages see Lightfoot on Colossians, the passage cited).
3. of certain decrees of the apostles relative to right living: Acts 16:4. (Of all the precepts of the Christian religion: βεβαιωθῆναι ἐν τοῖς δόγμασιν τοῦ κυρίου καί τῶν ἀποστόλων, Ignatius ad Magnes. 13, 1 [ET]; of the precepts (`sentences' or tenets) of philosophers, in the later secular writings: Cicero, acad. 2, 9, 27de suis decretis, quae philosophi vocant dogmata.) (On the use of the word in general, see Lightfoot as above; (cf. 'Teaching' etc. 11, 3 [ET]).)


Source: Genesis 1:1 (NASB)

Now why would Sha'ul use the word δόγμα in this verse?

I believe that he meant what he said, and said what he meant.

Anytime Paul is referring to THE LAW of Yahweh he used the phrase ho nomos which is
“The Law” in Greek.

So if THE LAW wasn't nailed to the (stake) pale; what was?


DECREE - Definition from the KJV Dictionary
DECREE, n. L. To judge; to divide.
1. Judicial decision or determination of a litigated cause; as a decree of the court of
chancery. The decision of a court of equity is called a decree; that of a court of law, a
judgment.

This is the gift of grace. Put into context, Sha'ul is not contradicting Yahshua, who said that the LAW will not pass away before heaven or earth. He's not telling us that we can live like lawless Hellians under grace because the LAW has been demolished. He's telling us that the judgements (under penalty of death) of our past sins are covered, through Yahshua, by the grace of Yahweh.


Grace be to you.

Hallelu YAH!

 

[Soyeong]

Crosses were never used as a means of disposing of laws, but rather what was written on crosses were the charges against the person being crucified or violations of the law that they had committed (Matthew 27:37). This was straightforwardly for the purpose of announcing why they were being executed. This fits perfectly with the concept of Christ dying on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins or violations of God's Law in our place, but does not at all fit with him dying to do away with God's righteous standard.

 

[HARK!]

This fits perfectly with the concept of Christ dying on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins or violations of God's Law in our place, but does not at all fit with him dying to do away with God's righteous standard.

It would make no sense for Yahshua to lay down his life in submission to the Father, in perfect obedience to Yahweh's LAW; as he tells us to follow him, before he demolishes the LAW.

 

[Bob S]

What did Paul write that was done away in 2Cor3: 7-11?

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

11 For if that which is done away (10 commandments) was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. (indwelling of the Holy Spirit).

 

[listed]

Colossians 2:14 (CLV)

erasing the handwriting of the decrees against us, which was hostile to us, and has taken it away out of the midst, nailing it to the cross,


Lexicon :: Strong's G1378 - dogma

δόγμα
Transliteration
dogma
Pronunciation
do'g-mä (Key)

Part of Speech
neuter noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From the base of δοκέω (G1380)
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry

TDNT Reference: 2:230,178

KJV Translation Count — Total: 5x
The KJV translates Strong's G1378 in the following manner: decree (3x), ordinance (2x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. doctrine, decree, ordinance
   1. of public decrees
      
      
   2. of the Roman Senate
      
      
   3. of rulers
2. the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment
   
   
3. of certain decrees of the apostles relative to right living

Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
δόγμα dógma, dog'-mah; from the base of G1380; a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical):—decree, ordinance.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon [?] (Jump to Scripture Index)
STRONGS NT 1378: δόγμα
δόγμα, δογματος, τό (from δοκέω, and equivalent to τό δεδογμενον), an opinion, a judgment (Plato, others), doctrine, decree, ordinance;
1. of public decrees (as τῆς πόλεως, Plato, legg. 1, p. 644 d.; of the Roman Senate (Polybius 6, 13, 2); Herodian, 7, 10, 8 (5, Bekker edition)): of rulers, Luke 2:1; Acts 17:7; Hebrews 11:23 Lachmann (Theod. in Daniel 2:13; Daniel 3:10; Daniel 4:3; Daniel 6:13, etc. — where the Sept. uses other words).
2. of the rules and requirements of the law of Moses, 3Macc. 1:3; διατήρησις τῶν ἁγίων δογμάτων, Philo, alleg. legg. i., § 16; carrying a suggestion of severity, and of threatened punishment, τόν νόμον τῶν ἐντολῶν ἐν δογμασι, the law containing precepts in the form of decrees (A. V. the law of commandments contained in ordinances), Ephesians 2:15; τό καθ' ἡμῶν χειρόγραφον τοῖς δογμασι equivalent to τό τοῖς δογμασι (dative of instrument) by ὄν καθ' ἡμῶν, the bond against us by its decrees, Colossians 2:14; cf. Winers Grammar, § 31, 10 Note 1 (Buttmann, 92 (80); on both passages see Lightfoot on Colossians, the passage cited).
3. of certain decrees of the apostles relative to right living: Acts 16:4. (Of all the precepts of the Christian religion: βεβαιωθῆναι ἐν τοῖς δόγμασιν τοῦ κυρίου καί τῶν ἀποστόλων, Ignatius ad Magnes. 13, 1 [ET]; of the precepts (`sentences' or tenets) of philosophers, in the later secular writings: Cicero, acad. 2, 9, 27de suis decretis, quae philosophi vocant dogmata.) (On the use of the word in general, see Lightfoot as above; (cf. 'Teaching' etc. 11, 3 [ET]).)


Source: Genesis 1:1 (NASB)

Now why would Sha'ul use the word δόγμα in this verse?

I believe that he meant what he said, and said what he meant.

Anytime Paul is referring to THE LAW of Yahweh he used the phrase ho nomos which is
“The Law” in Greek.

So if THE LAW wasn't nailed to the (stake) pale; what was?


DECREE - Definition from the KJV Dictionary
DECREE, n. L. To judge; to divide.
1. Judicial decision or determination of a litigated cause; as a decree of the court of
chancery. The decision of a court of equity is called a decree; that of a court of law, a
judgment.

This is the gift of grace. Put into context, Sha'ul is not contradicting Yahshua, who said that the LAW will not pass away before heaven or earth. He's not telling us that we can live like lawless Hellians under grace because the LAW has been demolished. He's telling us that the judgements (under penalty of death) of our past sins are covered, through Yahshua, by the grace of Yahweh.


Grace be to you.

Glory to Yahweh.

You ask a legalism question about physical activity. Paul was speaking figuratively as he often did.

 

[listed]

Crosses were never used as a means of disposing of laws, but rather what was written on crosses were the charges against the person being crucified or violations of the law that they had committed (Matthew 27:37). This was straightforwardly for the purpose of announcing why they were being executed. This fits perfectly with the concept of Christ dying on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins or violations of God's Law in our place, but does not at all fit with him dying to do away with God's righteous standard.

God's righteous standard can never be annihilated. The covenant God made with Israel obviously can or Jeremiah flat out lied and is a false prophet. I accept Jeremiah as a true prophet and spokesman for God. In-other-words I believe and trust what Jeremiah said is true.

 

[listed]

It would make no sense for Yahshua to lay down his life in submission to the Father, in perfect obedience to Yahweh's LAW; as he tells us to follow him, before he demolishes the LAW.

Do you understand what was required of a sacrifice?

 

[FreeAtLast]

You ask a legalism question about physical activity. Paul was speaking figuratively as he often did.

And also, if one REALLY looks at the definition IN CONTEXT, not cherry picking out things, it was LAW, and doctrine as well and according to the WHOLE of Scripture, yes it was referring to the Old Covenant Law of Moses that was nailed to Yeshua's Cross.

Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
δόγμα dógma, dog'-mah; from the base of G1380; a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical):—decree, ordinance.


KJV Translation Count — Total: 5x
The KJV translates Strong's G1378 in the following manner: decree (3x), ordinance (2x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. doctrine, decree, ordinance
   1. of public decrees
      
      
   2. of the Roman Senate
      
      
   3. of rulers
2. the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment
   
   
3. of certain decrees of the apostles relative to right living
   
   Expounding on the definition from the OP:
   
   2. of the rules and requirements of the law of Moses, 3Macc. 1:3; διατήρησις τῶν ἁγίων δογμάτων, Philo, alleg. legg. i., § 16; carrying a suggestion of severity, and of threatened punishment, τόν νόμον τῶν ἐντολῶν ἐν δογμασι, the law containing precepts in the form of decrees (A. V. the law of commandments contained in ordinances), Ephesians 2:15; τό καθ' ἡμῶν χειρόγραφον τοῖς δογμασι equivalent to τό τοῖς δογμασι (dative of instrument) by ὄν καθ' ἡμῶν, the bond against us by its decrees, Colossians 2:14; cf. Winers Grammar, § 31, 10 Note 1 (Buttmann, 92 (80); on both passages see Lightfoot on Colossians, the passage cited).

According to the definition the OP posted, these are again PROOF that the Law of Moses was indeed, nailed to the Cross, along with all the other decrees and doctrine under the OLD Coevnant, just as the whole of Scripture stated. THIS is G-d's grace, through Yeshua.

I'm so glad this proof was posted!

 

[HARK!]

11 For if that which is done away (10 commandments)

How do you come up with this stuff?

The 10 Commandments are part of the LAW.http://lovewins.us/bible/CLV/Jeremiah 31:31

Jeremiah 31: (CLV)

31 Lo, days are coming, an affirmation of Yahweh, And I have made with the house of Israel And with the house of Judah a new covenant, 32 Not like the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day of My laying hold on their hand, To bring them out of the land of Egypt, In that they made void My covenant, And I ruled over them--an affirmation of Yahweh." 33 For this [is] the covenant that I make, With the house of Israel, after those days, An affirmation of Yahweh, I have given My law in their inward part, And on their heart I do write it, And I have been to them for Elohim, And they are to me for a people."

How is it done away with; if it's written on your heart?

Let's go over this a little more carefully.

2 Corinthians 3: (CLV)

7 (Now if the dispensation

dis·pen·sa·tion

a system of order, government, or organization of a nation, community, etc., especially as existing at a particular time



of death, by letters chiseled in stone, came in glory,

What was written on those tablets?http://lovewins.us/bible/CLV/Exodus 31:18

Exodus 31: (CLV)

18 He gave to Moses, as He finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of Elohim.

Yahweh's testimony

Is that what what was done away with? I doubt it; but let's look into this further.

so that the sons of Israel were not able to look intently into the face of Moses, because of the glory of his face, which was being nullified, http://lovewins.us/bible/CLV/2 Corinthians 3:8

OH! So it was the glory of Moses' face that that was being NULLIFIED.

8 how shall not rather the dispensation of the spirit be in glory? 9 For if in the dispensation of condemnation is glory, much rather the dispensation of righteousness is exceeding in glory." http://lovewins.us/bible/CLV/2 Corinthians 3:10

What is dispensation again?

dis·pen·sa·tion

a system of order, government, or organization of a nation, community, etc., especially as existing at a particular time

What is righteousness?


Definition of righteous

1 :acting in accord with [URL='https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/divine#h1']divine or moral law :free from guilt or sin
[/URL]
OH! OK! Obedience to the LAW!

10 For that also which has been glorified has not been glorified in this particular, on account of the glory transcendent." 11 For if that which is being nullified was nullified through glory, much rather that which is remaining, remains in glory."

Verse 11 addresses two subjects. Those two subjects, that which was nullified, and that which was not nullified, have appeared as two entwined treads throughout these verses.

If it was the glory of Moses' face that was nullified; then I could come to no other logical conclusion that the Testimony of Yahweh was not nullified.

 

[FreeAtLast]

How is it done away with; if it's written on your heart?

Because the OLD Covenant Law is not what is written on our hearts, Yeshua's NEW Covenant is.

Let's examine the Scriptures you posted, which is clear proof of what I'm saying.

31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the L-rd, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt...

So clearly, the OLD was in effect.
So clearly G-d was speaking through Jeremiah that there was coming a NEW. Not renewed, not the same but entirely NEW covenant.

AND HE made the specific point to say that it was NOT (NOT NOT NOT) the like the Old Covenant Law of Moses. Has the Old Covenant Law of Moses changed? No.

33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the L-rd: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their G-d, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the L-rd,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the L-rd. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,

This could ONLY be accomplished by the work of Yeshua, His NEW Covenant and the Holy Spirit writing Yeshua's New Covenant on our hearts ( but ONLY if we are born again Believers in Yeshua as G-d and are filled with His Spirit)

Yeshua made the sacrifice once and for all time and THAT is why the Father will remember our sins no more. (after those days - at the Cross) Until that time, sin was atoned for over and over and over. After those days - at the Cross, we are forgiven by faith in Yeshua, as G-d.

So, how ANYONE can ignore this and state it is the Old Covenant Law is baffling to me. These clear words that the OLD is not what is being talked about here cannot be ignored.

 

[FreeAtLast]

How do you come up with this stuff?

It's called proper Biblical exegesis and understanding, thanks for asking so nicely so the correct meaning could be pointed out.

 

[HARK!]

God's righteous standard can never be annihilated

Yahshua made this clear.

Definition of righteous
1 :acting in accord with divine or moral law :free from guilt or sin
2 a :morally right or justifiable

• a righteous decision

b :arising from an outraged sense of justice or morality

• righteous indignation

3 slang :genuine, excellent

Matt. 5:17-19

Think not that I came to destroy the Law and the Prophets. I did not come to destroy them, but rather to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments [from the Law] and teaches men so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of heaven; but he who DOES THEM and teaches them shall be called great in the Kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[HARK!]

You ask a legalism question about physical activity.

Where?

 

[HARK!]

And also, if one REALLY looks at the definition IN CONTEXT, not cherry picking out things, it was LAW, and doctrine as well and according to the WHOLE of Scripture, yes it was referring to the Old Covenant Law of Moses that was nailed to Yeshua's Cross.

How do you reconcile YOUR interpretation with each of these scriptures?


(CLV) Hb 1:9
Thou lovest righteousness (kept THE LAW) and hatest injustice (disregard for THE LAW) ; Therefore Thou art anointed by The God, (tou theou) (YHWH), Thy God, with the oil of exultation beyond Thy partners."

(CLV) 1Jn 3:9
Everyone who is begotten of The God, (tou theou) (YHWH) is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of The God (tou theou) (YHWH).

(CLV) Mt 5:17
"You should not infer that I came to demolish THE LAW or the prophets. I came not to demolish, but to fulfill.

(CLV) Mt 5:18
For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from THE LAW till all should be occurring.

(CLV) Mt 5:19
"Whosoever, then, should be annulling one of the least of these precepts, and should be teaching men thus, the least in the kingdom of the heavens shall he be called. Yet whoever should be doing and teaching them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens.

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of THE LAW to fall.

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin, is doing LAWLESSNESS also, and sin is LAWLESSNESS.

(CLV) Mt 24:12
And, because of the multiplication of LAWLESSNESS, the love of many shall be cooling.

(CLV) Mt 24:13
Yet he who endures to the consummation, he shall be saved.

(CLV) 1Jn 2:4
He who is saying that I know him, and is not keeping his precepts, is a liar; and the truth of The God, (tou theou) (YHWH) is not in this one.

(CLV) 1Jn 3:8
Yet he who is doing sin is of the Adversary, for from the beginning is the Adversary sinning. For this, was the Son of The God (tou theou) (YHWH manifested, that He should be annulling the acts of the Adversary.

(CLV) Mt 23:28
Thus you, also, outside, indeed, are appearing to men to be just, yet inside you are distended with hypocrisy and LAWLESSNESS.

(CLV) Mt 7:21
"Not everyone saying to Me `Lord! Lord!' will be entering into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who is doing the will of My Father Who is in the heavens.
(CLV) Mt 7:22
Many will be declaring to Me in that day, `Lord! Lord! Was it not in Your name that we prophesy, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many powerful deeds?'

(CLV) Mt 7:23
And then shall I be avowing to them that `I never knew you! Depart from Me, workers~ of LAWLESSNESS!'
(CLV) Mt 13:41
The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers, and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing LAWLESSNESS,

 

[HARK!]

It's called proper Biblical exegesis and understanding, thanks for asking so nicely so the correct meaning could be pointed out.

No it's not.

You've presented yet another bald assertion fallacy; and violated Guidelines for Posting in the Sabbath and The Law forum:

When you disagree with someone's position, you should post evidence and supporting statements for your position. This policy, sometimes referred to as "X means Y because of Z", must be followed especially when posting claims that are widely considered to be controversial.

 

[HARK!]

33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the L-rd: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their G-d, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the L-rd,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the L-rd. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,

This could ONLY be accomplished by the work of Yeshua, His NEW Covenant and the Holy Spirit writing Yeshua's New Covenant on our hearts

Jeremiah 31:33 (CLV)

1 Lo, days are coming, an affirmation of Yahweh, And I have made with the house of Israel And with the house of Judah a new covenant,

How do you figure that it is Yahshua's new covenant; when Yahweh himself proclaimed that he made it?

 

[HARK!]

Do you understand what was required of a sacrifice?

Why don't you explain it to me?

 

[Soyeong]

God's righteous standard can never be annihilated. The covenant God made with Israel obviously can or Jeremiah flat out lied and is a false prophet. I accept Jeremiah as a true prophet and spokesman for God. In-other-words I believe and trust what Jeremiah said is true.

You agreed that God's righteous standard can never be annihilated, so then you should also agree that God's instructions for how to act in accordance with His righteous standard can never be annihilated. A covenant agreement to live by those instructions can become obsolete, but that doesn't cause God's righteous standard to become obsolete, so those instructions will always be instructions for how to live in accordance with God's righteous standard and will therefore always be relevant for those who seek to live according to God's righteous standard regardless of which covenant they are under, if any.

 

[FreeAtLast]

Jeremiah 31:33 (CLV)

1 Lo, days are coming, an affirmation of Yahweh, And I have made with the house of Israel And with the house of Judah a new covenant,

How do you figure that it is Yahshua's new covenant; when Yahweh himself proclaimed that he made it?

I don't figure anything, I take G-d at His Word.

Your answer is in the Scriptures IN CONTEXT, as is proper exegesis.

31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the L-rd, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt...

So clearly, the OLD was in effect.
So clearly G-d was speaking through Jeremiah that there was coming a NEW. Not renewed, not the same but entirely NEW covenant.

AND HE made the specific point to say that it was NOT (NOT NOT NOT) the like the Old Covenant Law of Moses. Has the Old Covenant Law of Moses changed? No.

 

[Soyeong]

What did Paul write that was done away in 2Cor3: 7-11?

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

11 For if that which is done away (10 commandments) was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. (indwelling of the Holy Spirit).

When someone gives an argument for a position and you give an argument for a different position that is mutually exclusive, then you are failing to be persuasive unless you also explain why his reasons for holding his position are not correct. It's fine to discuss 2 Corinthians 3:7-11, but it should not be done while neglecting to say anything about what was written in the OP, and to spend the thread only discussing that passage would undermine the purpose of the thread. For instance, Hark! could simply say that your understanding of those verses is wrong because of what he wrote in the OP. Or he could point to 2 Peter 3:15-17, which is the ultimate trump against your position, but again that would likely not be persuasive unless he also explained how your understanding of 2 Corinthians 3:7-11 is wrong , so it is an issue that should not be neglected, but this thread is not primarily about that passage.